• (cs) in reply to anon
    anon:
    Stop giving that crap! It's only 10 orders of magnitude more complex if the programmers like to re-invent the wheel.
    Not even then. NO program ever written is 10 orders of magnitudes more complex than even the simplest "Hello World". 10 orders of magnitue would mean 10^10 or 10,000,000,000 times.
  • Nis L. Simonsen (unregistered)

    The difficulties in programming business apps and video games are often of completely different natures, however, having done business apps for close to a decade and a very small (< 2 years off working-hours) of video game programming (primarily AI) I certainly consider game programming way harder than business programming. Possibly because AI-programming requires you to think about your code in an entirely different way from what you'd normally spend your time on when working on standard business code (domain models, abstraction layers, etc.)

  • (cs) in reply to akatherder
    akatherder:
    Do all of these video game programmers have some sort of reading disability? Alex's qualifying statement was:

    "Short of the occasional patch, once the product is shipped, it's done"

    Most games (especially console) don't have patches and updates. Most games don't have an engine worth re-using. And any code you can re-use (memory management, wall wireframes, etc) was probably already re-used from a previous game. Once the product is working and ships, it doesn't matter what the code looks like.

    Doesn't the bolded part suggest code quality is important given you may re-use code in future games? Just imagine all those "wall wireframe" codes you can reuse from quake.

  • Anon (unregistered) in reply to A frustrated 3DRealms fan
    A frustrated 3DRealms fan:
    there's no ten-year lifespan to worry about.

    Three words:

    Duke. Nukem. Forever.

    LifeSPAN, not "Indefinite development time"

    Lifespan of Duke Nukem Forever:0d 0h 0m 0s so far.

  • (cs)

    uhm, ... , WTF?

  • Baggy McBagster (unregistered)

    I think the real problem with these here game programmers is that they keep spoiling good games, like Far Cry and Half Life, by ALWAYS ALWAYS including the 'runs along really fast jumps on you and bites you' enemy.

    Presumably the meeting goes something like this:

    "Yeah, we've done the game. Trouble is, it's too thoughtful, requires too much skill, and it's too immersive and believable." "Hey, I know, why don't we include something that jumps out suddenly? That way the player's only reaction is to back and reload." "Cool idea." "And also, make it move really fast straight toward the player? Then we won't need any AI, or much of anything really." "Good one!" "And finally, why not make it take a huge chunk of damage off the player by biting. It'll be kind of weird that guns and grenades do less damage than an single bite, but probably nobody will notice as they'll be too busy running away from these things anyway." "Yeah, ok, consider it done."

    Seriously, guys, just STOP including the enemy that runs toward you really fast and bites you! Include something else instead! Even an enemy that runs toward you really fast and asks you trivia questions would be a welcome change.

  • (cs) in reply to Baggy McBagster

    Actually, I'd like a character that asks me trivial questions... but this'll lead us away from the topic.

    Anyway, viewing source codes of games often reveals wtf's, as does reading game files. There you can see how much effort was put into a game to convert it from where the engine was first used. For example, in the data files of Jedi Academy (undoubtedly one of the worst games ever done) is a line for every npc in game which specifies if it beams in with "starfleet beam effect", "romulan beam effect", "idryll beam effect"... go figure.

  • anonymous (unregistered) in reply to Infinity
    Infinity:
    For example, in the data files of Jedi Academy (undoubtedly one of the worst games ever done) is a line for every npc in game which specifies if it beams in with "starfleet beam effect", "romulan beam effect", "idryll beam effect"... go figure.

    If that is internal. Then is a cosmetic change no one will see, and may cause bugs. What if the Jedi Academy engine is reused to make a startrek game? then these beam effects name are right again... or you will need to change from your jedi styled ones. If you change this, for no reason. You will have more differences, so merging back enhancements will be harder. Is a bad idea. And resources on a game that the player sould see need to be external, because you want to support english german, french, italian, etc so your game sells everywhere.

  • (cs) in reply to anonymous

    In that case its external data (in a .pak file, i believe). Jedi Academy is based on the engine of some star trek game (which is based on the quake 3 engine), so they just altered an already modified engine and its data files and left hundreds of such rudiments, which are sometimes commented out or not loaded, but others are 'required' for the game (i.e. loaded but not used). For that specific game i'd have to agree with Alex: That code really is a mess.

  • matt s (unregistered) in reply to Sarkie

    12 is equal to 3. For the appropriate base, of course.

    ;-)

    And the captcha agrees, smile.

  • f@ (unregistered) in reply to Veinor
    Veinor:
    Actually, 1 & 2 = 0. You're either thinking of 1 ^ 2 or 1 | 2.
    I remember the days when 1 ^ 2 meant one to-the-power-of two, so 1 ^ 2 = 1 * 1 = 1, rather than these Java days when it's XOR and 1 ^ 2 = 3.

    Watch for that one on the SCJP exam, kids.

    CAPTCHA:
    bling
  • (cs) in reply to Anonymous

    I've seen a few XBox360 games that use BINK, so even console games are not exempt here.

    And for those that suggest that their piddle little 10,000 seat bank app is in the same class as video games that sell hundreds of thousands or even millions of copies to unsupported high diverse platforms is kidding themselves.

    Even assuming you have a fixed target like the 360, I don't imagine many of us hit 3 million units shipped like GOW did.

    I don't know about you, but I know that my apps don't have to face that kind of scrutiny. 1% of customers experiencing would you would describe as "an annoying glitch you can work around" might only be 10 or 100 people for you, but when that 1% starts to approach the population of small towns, even the minor glitches matter more and more.

  • (cs) in reply to matt s
    matt s:
    12 is equal to 3. For the appropriate base, of course.

    ;-)

    And the captcha agrees, smile.

    For which base then?

  • Lurker273 (unregistered) in reply to Baggy McBagster

    I think you might be thinking of the game designer, designers and programmers haven't been the same person at most companies for over a decade now.

  • Lurker273 (unregistered) in reply to Baggy McBagster
    Baggy McBagster:
    I think the real problem with these here game programmers is that they keep spoiling good games, like Far Cry and Half Life, by ALWAYS ALWAYS including the 'runs along really fast jumps on you and bites you' enemy.

    Presumably the meeting goes something like this:

    "Yeah, we've done the game. Trouble is, it's too thoughtful, requires too much skill, and it's too immersive and believable." "Hey, I know, why don't we include something that jumps out suddenly? That way the player's only reaction is to back and reload." "Cool idea." "And also, make it move really fast straight toward the player? Then we won't need any AI, or much of anything really." "Good one!" "And finally, why not make it take a huge chunk of damage off the player by biting. It'll be kind of weird that guns and grenades do less damage than an single bite, but probably nobody will notice as they'll be too busy running away from these things anyway." "Yeah, ok, consider it done."

    Seriously, guys, just STOP including the enemy that runs toward you really fast and bites you! Include something else instead! Even an enemy that runs toward you really fast and asks you trivia questions would be a welcome change.

    I can tell you from experience that programmers very rarely make any of these kinds of design decisions, sure we have input into the process but these decisions are ultimately up to the designers(see my above comment).

  • smetzger (unregistered) in reply to Lurker273

    I don't know about you but the gaming programmers have convinced me that their code is good enough for WTF articles. :)

  • doesn't matter anymore (unregistered) in reply to brazzy
    brazzy:
    anon:
    Stop giving that crap! It's only 10 orders of magnitude more complex if the programmers like to re-invent the wheel.
    Not even then. NO program ever written is 10 orders of magnitudes more complex than even the simplest "Hello World". 10 orders of magnitude would mean 10^10 or 10,000,000,000 times.
    Protip: Hyperbole is not pronounced Hyper-bowl. In some locations, hyperbole is filed under humorous. End of line.
  • PHP coder (unregistered) in reply to brazzy
    brazzy:
    PHP coder:
    The amount of code, and the complexity of the code that goes into the average video game is 10 orders of magnitude higher than any "real programming", such as business enterprise backends or whatever...

    Whiny gamer defending his holy cow: funny.

    Someone calling himself "PHP coder" making bizarre blanket statements about "real programming": hilarious.

    Not knowing what "order of magnitude" means: priceless.

    I used to program in C++ and Unreal Script, but then my company went bankrupt, so I got a cushy "integration" job at a big corporation. They use PHP to make their command line tools (for some strange reason), which is where I took the handle "PHP coder". Now I'm working on an engine based on Gamebryo, so I guess the handle isnt relevant anymore (although I still do PHP coding in my spare time). Sorry for the confusion.

    I was (obviously) using the phrase "10 orders of magnitude" colloquially, not literally, but you can take it to mean literally "10000000000 times" if it makes you happy.

    Some internet nerd being belligerent: lame, but at least he's not arguing about spelling.

  • Game coder (unregistered) in reply to brazzy

    [quote user="brazzy"][quote user="anon"]10 orders of magnitue would mean 10^10 or 10,000,000,000 times.[/quote]

    Only in base 10 :P

    it could also mean 1024 to a programmer ;)

  • (cs) in reply to Baggy McBagster

    [quote user="Baggy McBagster Seriously, guys, just STOP including the enemy that runs toward you really fast and bites you! Include something else instead! Even an enemy that runs toward you really fast and asks you trivia questions would be a welcome change. [/quote]

    Fallout 2 - Bridgekeeper special event. Based on Monty Python & the Holy Grail.

    It's already been done (sort of).

  • richard (unregistered) in reply to mr_smee
    mr_smee:
    But this one goes to 11.

    Why don't you just make 10 louder?

  • CindyPsych (unregistered) in reply to Imperceptus
    Imperceptus:
    yeah like the PS3, that one worked awesome out the door. Right into the trash can.

    What are you talking about? First of all, the PS3 is a console, not a game. Patches were available the first second you logged onto the internet with your PS3. The only thing wrong with the PS3 was Sony's decision to launch it when they didn't have their manufacturing processes up to full speed and didn't have enough games available at launch. Very similar to the XBox 360 launch, in fact, but the XBox 360 didn't have the Wii breathing up it's keister.

  • totallymeat (unregistered) in reply to snqow

    I recognize that crap, I used to work for that company that generated that code. They probably licensed their "game" engine out Stellar Stone for way too much, because it looks exactly like all of the other vehicle-based "game" demos they produced. I saw them sit on their asses and make "game" demos like this for years, all with the promise of next generation interaction and excitement. Yeah, nice job, guys.

    We should have stuck with the bionic jackrabbits on speed. At least them it would have made sense if the characters could speed up indefinitely in reverse and clip through the entire playing field.

  • NeoMojo (unregistered) in reply to brazzy
    brazzy:
    anon:
    Stop giving that crap! It's only 10 orders of magnitude more complex if the programmers like to re-invent the wheel.
    Not even then. NO program ever written is 10 orders of magnitudes more complex than even the simplest "Hello World". 10 orders of magnitue would mean 10^10 or 10,000,000,000 times.

    Why would it mean that?

    What have you defined "order of magnitude" to mean?

    Order of magnitude means the size of something. 1 is an order of magnitude (of something). 54 is an order of magnitude (of something). The word magnitude does not imply 10 in any way.

    If someone say to me "2 orders of magnitude bigger" then I assume it's twice the size, because that what that phrase means.

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