• foo (unregistered) in reply to snoofle
    snoofle:
    VGR:
    JOHN:
    This guy seems a little whackadoo, but he's not wrong about frames.

    I've never understood the irrational hatred people have of frames. When you use them for properly, they're a godsend.

    Wow. Where to start. How about browsers on small screens, like cell phones and PDAs? How about text-mode browsers like lynx? How about accessibility? And, as has already been mentioned, frames royally screw up any hope of bookmarking, and they're not very kind to the Back button. I won't even go into the security issues.

    Are frames occasionally an appropriate idiom? Sure, occasionally. Appropriate for layout? Hell no. Appropriate implementation of persistent side bars or navigation areas? Hell no.

    But, hey, there's a lot of "professionals" who really are still writing CS assignments, and as such believe that anything that "works" is a good job. You decide if you're among them.

    Ok, I'm not a web-guy, but I occasionally get ordered to build a web page with a persistent logo/header area on top, persistent nav-bar on the left, and the remaining area dedicated to whatever the user was doing; if frames are not the right way to do it, what is? (seriously, I'd like to not create WTF's when forced to work out of my element)

    CSS and floating DIV blocks are very popular. See the "Bonsai Sky" design here: http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=069/069.css Notice how the little Buddha floats on the right side of the screen?

  • pshaw (unregistered)

    He has all Larry Wall's virtues of programmers: Laziness, Impatience and Hubris. I must say the he is overqualified in the area of hubris.

  • Anonymous (unregistered)

    Hi Gary, I'm writing to inform you that you're a fucking moron and don't even know the meaning of words you're using. Please chew your arms off.

    Sincerely, Me

  • Bob (unregistered) in reply to jaspax

    Is this guy related to the Time Cube guy?

    http://www.timecube.com/

  • My Cat (unregistered)

    I really hope he thinks "frames" are something other than what they really are.

  • (cs)

    I highly suspect that this is a hoax or a joke.

  • SQB (unregistered) in reply to Rooser
    Rooser:
    "Secure multi-mediation is the future of all webbing."

    Forced multi-medication is the future of Gary.

  • (cs) in reply to Todd
    Todd:
    Actually, this is a lot like Aristotle. Genius that he was, he was wrong about... well, not everything, just physics and anything derived from it.

    Also, Biology.

  • MusicAndMemories (unregistered)

    There are two types of people in IT: Those who understand what they don't manage, and those who manage what they don't understand.

    Where I work, I have people like gray dropping out of the ceiling tiles onto my head. I spend more time and energy disproving their 'expertise' to avoid technically stupid solutions than I do actually coding.

  • Matthew (unregistered) in reply to bz
    bz:
    E.g. The people that only use C++ and refuse to use any high level languages. Or the people that refuse to use anything BUT CSS, resulting in somewhat rigid and complicated CSS pages to do the work of a simple table.

    Not to start a CSS vs. tables war or anything, but avoiding tables is not just a "fad." While CSS can sometimes be more complicated than a table, it is anything but rigid. Getting good at marking up pages without tables (except for tabular data, of course) will be a big win in the long run. Tables are horribly rigid. I dread working on any project that make heavy use of tables. If nothing else, using CSS instead of tables for layout allows good separation between design and programming. It really sucks to have to dig into some template code and move a td from one row to another just because the client decides they want an element to display 50 pixels farther down the page.

    And don't get me started on frames... Really, the majority of things that are considered "uncool" in teh tech industry are so for good reason.

  • iToad (unregistered)

    Gary is simply in the wrong industry. He actually belongs in politics. Washington is full of important people who create their own version of reality through the sheer force of their will, instead of belonging to the reality-based community like the rest of us.

  • Alain (unregistered)

    People who talk about themselves in the 3rd person... never mind.

  • who, me? (unregistered)

    I think Gary is actually Brice Richards

  • Gordon (unregistered) in reply to Todd

    It's almost like talking to a god-botherer

  • (cs)

    Wait until you hear what Gary has to say about the BLINK and MARQUEE tags!

  • wklink (unregistered)

    Aristotle believed that the center of intelligence lay in the heart. In my heart, I know Gary to be as well informed as Aristotle.

  • Tony (unregistered)

    I disagree with Gary, the future of "webbing" is the blink tag. All of you who disagree with this statement have been taught lies.

  • (cs) in reply to shadowman
    shadowman:
    JOHN:
    This guy seems a little whackadoo, but he's not wrong about frames.

    We use iframes here at work to achieve some very advanced features that would otherwise not be possible using plain HTML. We've cut our page sizes down by 30%, performance is up, etc.

    I've never understood the irrational hatred people have of frames. When you use them for properly, they're a godsend.

    PS: even gmail uses iframes. Is google wrong?

    iframes are not the same as frames. It's an entirely different kind of flying. Altogether.

    Gmail might not use frames but there image search sure does.

  • (cs) in reply to DeLos

    True, but then it helpfully provides a link to help you get rid of said frame. Frames do have a use (albeit a very limited one), but not for the reasons Gary invokes.

  • (cs) in reply to clevershark
    clevershark:
    Frames do have a use (albeit a very limited one), but not for the reasons Gary invokes.

    But this is true about anything. Look at the blink tag. It should have a very usefully purpose. to draw your attention to what is blinking. however, misused (and it is ALWAYS misused) it became ignored, thus useless and dropped.

    Like communism, it was great in theory but in use it performed poorly.

  • Militis Sanctus (unregistered) in reply to Todd

    Hmmm...What if the industry uses COBOL?

    I'm pretty sure that I hate it, though I will say this - if written correctly, it's terribly efficient...Yes, terribly...but it's not the answer to every problem, aye?

  • rob (unregistered)

    I think Gary must have a web site somewhere (with frames, of course) where he posts these exchanges and says something to the effect of "look at the crap I'm asking people to swallow! LOL!!!"

    Or, he could just enjoy being a douche.

  • Toodle (unregistered)

    Actually, the only thing Gary is wrong about is the industry he's referring to. Consider print art/painting:

    • Frames make the content look better.
    • Frames make the content more secure, protected from physical damage and harder to steal.
    • There are no usability issues associated with using frames.

    Hmm, maybe frames really are the answer to all technical issues?! ;)

  • Schnapple (unregistered) in reply to rob
    rob:
    Or, he could just enjoy being a douche.

    That to me is the biggest part of the story - the sheer arrogance of Gary. He is saying the entire universe minus him is wrong. He is saying that everyone who says this, which includes many very smart people, is wrong, therefore he is smarter than everyone else in the industry. Even if this were true, even if he was right, he's still a complete shithead.

  • (cs) in reply to Gordon
    Gordon:
    It's almost like talking to a god-botherer
    English translation please.
  • Franz Kafka (unregistered) in reply to snoofle
    snoofle:
    The entire industry is wrong and I am right".

    You are all wrong; the Earth is not the center of the universe!

    You are all wrong; the Earth is not flat; I shall sail around the other way to find a shorter route!

    Which doesn't belong?

    The first one was accepted until galileo came up with a better idea. The second one was only a revelation to the stinking masses.

  • (cs)

    This is the Holy Church Of Frames

    I felt like listening to the sermon

  • AC (unregistered) in reply to Troche
    Troche:
    this whole post could be summed up with one word: FRAMES!

    Too true, but it would be funnier if he said:

    BRAINS !!

    (zombie voice implied)

  • (cs) in reply to Shinobu
    Shinobu:
    CRNewsom:
    I am pretty sure that whenever you make the statement "I am right and the entire industry is wrong." you are, in fact, the one who is wrong.
    Erm... you can use that statement to justify DRM, XML, not checking for buffer overflows, the NIH syndrome and lot's of other even more nasty things. The reality is that over 90% of the people are wrong most of the time and IT doesn't solely attract the brightest bulbs from the lot. Far from it.

    You name it!

  • (cs) in reply to Bob
    Bob:
    Is this guy related to the Time Cube guy?

    http://www.timecube.com/

    No, he's more like the Desktop Search guy:

    http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/thread/141396.aspx

  • Phleabo (unregistered) in reply to Salty
    Salty:
    Zazi:
    ... I honestly don't get it. How can some people be in charge of everything, and be completely stupid?
    We Americans looks at our Congress, our Senate, seven of our last nine Presidents, and we wonder the same thing.

    Which presidents are the idiots? Bush 2 is the one gimmie candidate.

    Also, the Senate is part of the Congress.

  • (cs) in reply to Rooser
    Rooser:
    "Secure multi-mediation is the future of all webbing." Is this guy for real?

    Well, he's wrong in a way. Web-TV, Web-Radio, videos, music, pictures, sounds, media-players...

    it's not the future, it's already there

  • Adam (unregistered) in reply to bz

    If your CSS is rigid and complicated, you aren't doing CSS right.

  • Neil Struthers (unregistered)

    You are all educated stupid. Time has...time has four sides, see, like a cube, and each side is a frame, and those sides can't interfere with each other because they swivel around four separate points, see, sun-up, sun-down, midnight and noon, see, and one day all of you will see, you'll see, and those who once spoke out against the power and purity of frames will be FIRST AGAINST THE WALL. Academic singularity is evil. Engineering singularity is evil. Framecube is truth.

  • Neil Struthers (unregistered) in reply to Neil Struthers

    Ha, I wasn't the only one who thought 'time cube' then.

  • Peter (unregistered)

    Has it occurred to anyone that Gary is brilliant just loves to fsck with people?

  • I am not a robot (unregistered) in reply to Todd

    That typing style sure looks familiar.... http://cfpurists.blogspot.com/

  • Raven (unregistered)

    Take the red pill

  • (cs) in reply to Peter
    Peter:
    Has it occurred to anyone that Gary is brilliant just loves to fsck with people?

    It's more likely that he's brillant.

  • mclaren (unregistered)

    Anyone this deluded and demented has to be in upper management. My prediction: Gary's on the fast track to CEO.

  • Greg (unregistered) in reply to AdT
    AdT:
    "Again, Chris, you have done nothing wrong. You were just taught a lie."

    I knew it! We have been framed!

    LOL! Perfect!

  • BD (unregistered) in reply to Todd

    However, Aristotle's views were consistent with and based on an understanding of the universe that was state of the art at the time. His views were all founded in a rigorous system of logic. Gary's views are... not.

  • Mark (unregistered)

    Plato? Aristotle? Socrates?

    Morons.

  • Doug Burbidge (unregistered)

    The classic psych paper on this is "Unskilled and unaware of it":

    http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf

    "People tend to hold overly favorable views of their abilities in many social and intellectual domains. The authors suggest that this overestimation occurs, in part, because people who are unskilled in these domains suffer a dual burden: Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it."

    It's definitely worth a read.

  • Lyle (unregistered)

    It seemed plain to me that Gary was being tounge-in-cheek.

  • AcusticThoughts (unregistered) in reply to CRNewsom

    Hrmm...

    You know, a lot of people used to believe the world was at the center of the universe. They are all dead now (or Catholic).

    A lot of people thought the world was flat. Dead too.

    A lot of people don't believe in evolution.

    I believe the majority of the human population is wrong in that they are over focused on physical goods because of their struggles and insecurities.

    I am right. The entire industry is wrong. Don't doubt the person who says that. Jump in next ot them and see why they think that.

    ...otherwise you will die stupid like the rest of them.

  • Ben (unregistered) in reply to Lyle

    This is almost certainly a windup email that has gone way over the recipients head. I found it entertaining, and its upset enough geeks here that it seems it did its job well =)

  • cosminaru (unregistered)

    This sounds very familiar. Conceptually speaking. I can't remember one single project I've worked on where there wasn't some idiot pushing some crappy technology that usually has nothing to do with the project. I guess everyone has his/her favorite pet.

  • Metal Lord (unregistered) in reply to Gage
    Gage:
    Shinobu:
    CRNewsom:
    I am pretty sure that whenever you make the statement "I am right and the entire industry is wrong." you are, in fact, the one who is wrong.
    Erm... you can use that statement to justify DRM, XML, not checking for buffer overflows, the NIH syndrome and lot's of other even more nasty things. The reality is that over 90% of the people are wrong most of the time and IT doesn't solely attract the brightest bulbs from the lot. Far from it.

    83.23% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

    More like 83.24

  • (cs)

    "Gary considers himself to be a truly enlightened individual," Chris added, "and has actually stated that he is on the level of Plato and Aristotle."

    Yup, I'd certainly agree that his web devlopment skills match those of 2 guys who've been dead for a very long time.

    "if your server is down, and you have a full page, then that full page is not sent and you get the 404 error message. With frames, you can get that error on just a frame. So, if you have three frames, then if your server is not secure, you have three times the opportunity to get the 404 error message. Therefore, to use frames (an advanced mediation capability), you must be smarter and more secure."

    Yes, you must be much smarter. For example being able to count to 4 helps. The 3 frames can generate 404, but so indeed can the main frames page. Ah the joy of hearing about someone who's made a website in MS Publisher and then thinks they know it all....

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