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Admin
this i would forgive only to very very hot chick as intern. i would fire him the first day.
Admin
Well, you call that a stupid intern but I call that healthy curiosity. Maybe he IS stupid at last but this example is wrong.
Admin
I think we got lost somewhere along the way. This isn't about parenting, it's about people who only learn the hard way.
Admin
The real WTF here is that "the servers are under my desk".
Not really the best place to store production servers eh?
Admin
interns can be stupid sure, but it's not a one-way street. At least in my country, as a company you are required to give the intern guidence and teach him "the ropes".
So if you want your intern to do some DBA'ing for instance, you should give him ample time to LEARN how to do that. From the internet and from simply telling him how stuff is done.
Of course since most school kids can't concentrate longer then 60 seconds and single task, you will certainly have to keep bugging him about it at least twice a day, and perhaps let him make a presentation about it or whatever.
But what it comes down too actually is if you can motivate a intern to do something, they will become more and more valuable. And hopefully end up becoming a good employee at some time.
Admin
Admin
And naturally you can have notifications of code sent in etc etc etc. The tools are there, I too cannot understand why would anyone fire a person that's worked for so long in the company. He already knows the ropes (although not the part "don't fix anything if it isn't broken and if it is, ask someone in charge before fixing it if it isn't assigned to you as a task") and probably has done a good job before, otherwise I can't imagine anyone keeping someone in the house for 5 years.
But everyone has their management style.
(And yes, I also like the idea that servers are under someone's table, especially when the fire system uses foam that will probably make the machines spurt out the magic smoke that they run on. I do know that not everyone has the possibility to have server rooms with SOTA stuff, but still. Even getting a cupboard or a rack for them would be wise so nobody will kick them around...)
Admin
Admin
Umm... I don't know what field you're in, but the kind of programming positions I'm interested in wouldn't touch someone without a degree.
Never a truer word spoken. This is universally true in modern professional software engineering - you'd have to be crazy to choose not to study for at least an undergraduate degree if this is your career of choice.I think the mistake people make is they assume people with degrees are saying "A degree guarantees someone is fit-for-purpose". We all know a dozen morons who got CS/SE degrees without learning anything - but the bottom line is if someone can't get a degree, they must be really incompetent or really lazy. If someone just didn't want a degree, well, good luck explaining your reasoning to the interviewer.
Admin
"Well, Mr. Reviewer, the reason I never went back and finished that degree after leaving the military is because I've been busy working in this industry for the last 30 years."
That was simple enough, neh?
Admin
Without doubt, IT is something you need to take a hold of and run with or you'll inevitibly(Spelling) fall behind.
On the other hand, I often find its the people without degrees that talk that load everyday to make themselves feel better for not doing the same.
There's a level balance of everything, and I'll agree, the peice of paper doesn't necessarily reflect knowledge, but I also know of lots of people who didn't take the time to go to uni who are still working the same or similar positions they were when they started, whereas others with degrees have moved onto bigger better roles such as management or specialist security roles.
Admin
And now unfortueatly I'm my own worse enemy as I've just posted a reply for a message way up a thread only just realising that the point has already been made. I HATE people who do that.
CAPTCHA: tacos
Admin
I just want to say... A degree does not mean the guy can program. It does mean he knows (or should know if the college or uni was any good) theory, he understands the concepts, he has a strong foundation in the way computers work. It does not mean he is a good programmer. The inverse also is not true, ones without degrees are not necessarily better.
I've said it before, If I'm hiring a new guy, the one with the degree has a better chance. But if I'm looking for a senior with many years of experience, I could care less if he has a degree. Anything the senior would have learned in college is either outdated, or anyone would have picked up after a few years in the field.
This rapidly changing field essentially expires the benefit of a degree fairly quickly. It is the passion to keep learning that makes any developer a good developer. If you don't have that passion, no degree is going to make up for it.
Admin
Intern's are not a bad thing. The guy who actually hired this guy apparantly doesn't know how to hire, and based on the fact that he couldn't even remember his real name, I'm sure he was a stellar boss as well.
Admin
I started out as an intern (well technically a co-op student). My manager gave me unlimited rope to succeed or hang myself. He basically gave me a list of menial tasks which was the bare minimum I needed to do. After that he told me to make myself useful. I started out dicking around with some inventory they were tracking on a spreadsheet. Then I replaced the spreadsheet with a little web app. After about 10 iterations of mini-projects like that I had written a fully functional project management system that was integrated with our hardware, schedules, network information, employees, financials... everything. My manager thought I was God for it.
I decided to leave when that system finally reached a "steady state" so they were outsourcing the maintenance to Egypt. Apparently they converted it from PHP/Oracle to VB.Net/SQL Server and absolutely fucked the whole thing up. It's hard to have your legacy tarnished.
Admin
"Well, Mr. Applicant, I also did my time in the Military, and have been working full time in this industry since I got out. Somehow, on top of being married, working full time, and still maintaining a very social and active lifestyle, I managed to go back and finish my degree, as well as my graduate degree. Seems to me you just aren't very motivated..."
Admin
The point which you missed Slacker is that if you didn't have 30 years of industry experience, you'd be screwed - there's no way to get that industry experience these days in my field without first having a decent degree. Why? Because all the best candidates have degrees - it really is that simple. Not having a degree 20-30 years ago was a completely different situation.
Admin
Didn't you read the story? They're there so they won't get covered with foam.
What was the "two-letter reply"? FU?
Admin
Well put! Not to mention, some people's passions in the IT arena span everything from Databases, networks, multitudes of different types of software development, etc... Where someone's skill set might be honed to a particular category. I'm amazed how many people expect that I should know how to whip up every data structure from school in c++, and amazed at when they are amazed at what I would consider minor knowledge regarding sql programming or high level managed code. Blanketing statements are bad, and what makes a good developer can be many things, many types of people, even a "mop head". Albeit not one so stupid.... :D
Admin
Will someone please put this debate off limits? It's been hashed too many times.
Admin
Admin
WhyTF are they using foam in a server room? C'mon - where's the Halon? Besides, a room full of Halon would take care of the intern problem, too.
Admin
Somehow they make it through classes, When I was taking my last network admin course part of the time was spent on work experience even though majority of the class did not need it.
One of the guys, who I gotta say is pretty decent with computers but just does really stupid stuff for some reason had a placement with a huge company, they had a pretty large server room which was loaded with RAID arrays.
He didnt even technical start yet, was just getting the tour and in the server room he decides to just yank out one of the drives to see if the array would rebuild itself, this was on a huge live environment. An alarm went off and red lights going off and everything in the room, when they asked why he did that he said something about wanting to see if it could rebuild itself.
Admin
Ok, let's turn this line of questioning on its head and ask this: Given two candidates with 5-10 years of experience, one having a CompSci degree, and one having no degree (or something like Philosophy or Russian Literature), what, exactly, are the advantages of having the CompSci degree?
Just for kicks, after having read this discussion yesterday, I glanced over the requirements I would have had to meet for gaining a CompSci degree at my school. Instead, I chose a Philosophy degree. (CompSci teaches me all about hard logic and algorithms, but binds me to computers. Philosophy teaches me all about hard logic, and soft logic, and political science, and economics, and many other things useful in all kinds of fields from the law, to communications, to engine repair to software development.)
In any case, let's see. CompSci required more advanced math, but I took that anyway. It also required that I learn Sparc Assembler. I've never used that professionally in the 10 years I've been in this field. Project management? I got that 9 years ago via OJT. Data Structures and Algorithms I and II I took, but like the Sparc Assmbler I've never used it. Basic databases and networking I got, again, via OJT.
For someone who is designing games, math-intensive apps, or doing advanced database work, the Assembler, Data Structures / Algs, and advanced math is helpful and perhaps necessary - though as long as one has the advanced math, the other stuff can be picked up along the way.
But how much work is games, database, or other math-intensive work?
So, again, I ask, what advantage is having a CompSci degree?
Admin
please stop italicizing quotations
Admin
Admin
If this page turns into yet another parenting forum full of validation seeking attention whores, I'm out.
Admin
WRT a "reputable" school, no, let's not.
I am confounded by those who equate a degree from a 3-year technical school with one from a 4-year state college or private school. There is nothing - I repeat, nothing - you get from those 3-year degrees that you don't get in your 1st year "on the ground" in the IT field.
Let's use the logic noted in previous posts. Given someone with a BS from a tech school and 0-1 years of experience, and someone with 3 years of solid experience but no degree, one would always choose the one with the degree. How is that a valid choice, if all you're considering is the degree?
I admit, I may be a little biased; but I've been through all three kinds of schools, and I know people who graduated from each kind. I spent two trimesters at DeVry but quit because of the absolute stifling, incessant actions of the school in trying to parent their students (even the adults) and prioritizing money collection and profits over educational value. (But hey, they are a for-profit entity with shareholders, so they are required by law to do so.) The comments of many seniors while I was there (and graduates I know) don't exactly inspire faith, either; like the guy who insisted that Windows NT 4 was more secure than Solaris (he didn't even know what Solaris was, btw).
Attending a State university and then later, a liberal arts school was a breath of fresh air!
Admin
The Real WTF would be having that guy around for more than 1 week, let alone 6 weeks! After the 1st week of not looking professional and not acting professional, he should have been booted at once! This isn't even about what college he was going to or how good he was in Computer Science.
Is that why you kept him around for 6 weeks? Because he was so awesome and spectacular with code that you overlooked his smoking and unkempt being? It really doesn't make sense why you hired this guy in the first place! Compared to the laws of natural selection, you're the guy taking care of all the sick and lame gazelles that should be eaten and tossed aside.
And for those of you people who like to argue a lot, this wasn't racist. He just said dreads and smokes a lot, and last I checked, that was the latest Abercrombie and Fitch trend. Racist would have been, "He broke his arm playing table tennis, and the only people that are that uncoordinated in a table sport that also like to wear dreads are white people."
Admin
Who the fuck really cares?
Admin
You make an interesting point. Too many people use interns as cheap labor, instead of realizing what an internship is for. You are there to teach and provide real world experience. You should pair interns with knowledgeable, experienced staff to show them the ropes. Yes, you will get some cheap labor, but the labor should be more of the "assistant" variety and not the "heading up a project" variety. If you are bringing in interns to spearhead projects, then you are abusing the system. I don't think that is what happened in this case, but I just wanted to get that out there.
Admin
Though most of my friends think I'm weird when I quote this, this is kind of like wizard of oz. At the end of the movie, the wizard tries to give scarecrow a brain. He can't, but he gives him something where people will think he's smart. He then spouts out some talk about isosceles triangle. If you don't think about it, it seems as if he's smart. But if you really do think, he's talking about Pythagorean theorem on an isosceles, which is obviously wrong.
Have a degree, speak quickly so people can't quite understand what you're saying but it sounds technical, and you're suddenly very smart.
captcha: ninjas, who this post is strictly for...
Admin
Sure, I'll bite. But keep in mind here, that what we're discussing is the validation that Person A vs. Person B is a better prospect for Job X. If I am understanding you correctly, you're indicating that the presence of a degree is either an automatic indicator of a perfect fit, or at least a superior fit.
You are correct. But, at a fundamental level, logic is logic is logic. Software development is simply logic manifested on silicon chips; the law, in its purest form, is logic manifested in reality. Your key word there is knowledge gap. Someone with a deep understanding of logic merely needs additional knowledge about how to apply that understanding to the control of silicon circuits. Given some formal training, or time to train himself, an attorney may very well be an excellent programmer
So we can assume that everybody with a CompSci degree has a deep understanding of advanced math? What if someone with a CompSci degree graduated 3 years ago and hasn't used any of that math since?
But to an interviewer, there's no way to know for sure that any given school - even one with a good reputation - has a decent project management course. And, there's no way to know that Candidate A was the slacker who passed by nature of the other hard-workers on his team during his project management course.
Perhaps I'm an anomaly, but since I've been primarily involved in business software, no, I haven't. Even when I wrote a lot of C, all of those things were in pre-existing libraries. And honestly, if I was a manager involved in writing business software, to minimize the amount of time involved I'd rather my employees use pre-packaged software instead of re-implementing all those things from scratch.
But that's not the way it usually works. If you are a developer at Company A, you might be put on a project developing software with network-intensive routines. As a result, you may gain experience in network technologies which would then logically convey to Company B, where you'd be hired as a network administrator.
Let me clarify. Given the number of jobs in any geographical location, what percentage of those jobs requires deep understanding of the subjects noted above? Chances are, not many.
My main point is this: a college degree in compsci is just as reliable or unreliable as an employment record without references in judging which candidate is best for a position, and therefore you shouldn't rely on it to make that judgment. If you're interviewing for a job that requires deep math (database, network, etc) skills then you should give your interviewees a test, or an in-depth technical interview, or both. People can have those in-depth skills, and the in-depth knowledge that accompanies them, without having a compsci degree.
Admin
I agree.
I did my internship at with a very good manager. He told me that the idea was to give some real business experience, and that if he got some work out of me, all the better. My first project was data entry. Read from this file, type it over here. I created a program to do it, saving myself 6 weeks of mind-numbing data entry. They still use the program I created, and my manager told me that I exceeded his wildest expectations. They changed the rules after I left. In order to intern there now, you have to be in a computer-related field of study.
The point is that interns shouldn't be used just to get work out of.
As usual, I'm rambling. I'm done now.
Admin
Admin
Sure, if it was just something hot. The boiling water changes that. Let him learn on a burner set to medium or something. That only leaves a nasty blister.
Admin
If a CS degree teaches a skill I used before, then I could have gotten it on the job. Therefore, it was not necessary.
If a CS degree teaches a skill I did not use before, it is not necessary to the profession and therefore not necessary.
Therefore, if not matter what skills a CS degree offers, it's either gained by on the job training or it is not necessary. This entire exercise was not to truly seek an answer, but to validate my already predetermined conclusion with my twisted tautalogical logic.
Admin
Minimal. I've been in this field 20+ years now. I can say with certainty that there is no correlation between having a compsci/it degree and being a good developer. None. If anything, its the guys who dropped out of college to become programmers, or the Music/History/etc majors who were drawn to programming who are the best. Those are the people who live to code.
A compsci degree might be needed if you want to work in certain low-level projects, like compiler development. But otherwise, its a waste of time.
Admin
"So, mr. interviewer, did you learn anything from your BSCS that 30 years of experience didn't teach you? Was it worth the time invested?
Admin
It is possible that there is no correlation between a CS degree and being a good developer, but it is indisputable that most good developers have CS degrees and most people without CS degrees are not good developers. So whether or not there is a correlation, it is a useful indicator.
It is possible to succeed in software engineering without a comp sci background. But it is much more difficult to do it that way, and your odds of success are slim unless you are in a field where it is relatively easy to get by self-taught (such as web development). Most people without CS education do poorly as software developers, therefore while it is not an indicator of a perfect fit, it is a very strong indicator of basic competence.
However, if a person has 30+ years verifiable experience in the field, that is a much better indicator and should override lack of a degree. A sensible interviewer knows this.
I do find it interesting, however, that so many people seem to consider CS education unnecessary unless you're doing something "low level". I get the feeling that "low level" encompasses most of what I tend to consider "high level", but then again, as I usually work with embedded computing, my perspective is probably a bit skewed. I do see problems committed by people working at a high level with an insufficient appreciation for data structures, so I do have some skepticism of the assertion that formal CS education is of minimal benefit.
Admin
Admin
I have seen two CS majors very that knew their donkey from a hole in the ground. Both were hired as interns and both went on to have great careers. All the others were pretty sad, got me out of the IT intern business.
Although the business school interns were a lot prettier!
Admin
There's a difference between a "Oops, I meant to comment that code out before production" mistake, and a "I still don't know what I don't know after working here for 5 years" mistake. A programmer who thought he was smart enough to unannouncedly change what was obviously vital functionality has no place working on critical code. What if his next mistake made the critical functionality fail randomly, or only under very specific circumstances? Letting a single "smart guy" think he can do everything without any oversight or even just peer review is a recipe for disaster.
Admin
Is it? Aside from more anecdotes, can you supply any evidence that is that case? (Sorely missing on both sides of this debate.)
Admin
Well, most of the population is made up of "people without CS degrees," and they tend not to have much development experience.
Admin
...Amen... I thought the same thing...
Admin
Unlike CO2, Halon will suppress a fire without creating a lethal atmosphere. This does not however mean you want to hang around in a comm room waiting for the dump though. The burning plastic will create toxic fumes, and if you're dumb enough to be standing under a discharge vent when it does go off, the gas is cold enough to cause severe frostbite.
Admin
the negative side is easy - most people do not hold CS degrees, and most of them aren't very good as developers. The have other jobs instead.
The positive side could be argued either way, depending on what you consider a degree - lots of devry grads, but most good developers I run into got the CS degree (or maths or EE) as a matter of course.
Admin
That's not amazing at all, really. Unless the student attends Carnegie Mellon University (reverse engineering is part of the curriculum there) or MIT (I can't think of any other schools that are really known for amazing engineering and computer curriculums), they likely are getting a rather crappy CS education. I thought my school (George Washington University) was being exceptionally stupid when I saw the curriculum, but then I learned that what they do is actually rather common. All required courses are in Java (a very little bit of C in Comp Arch 1). Some electives have other languages. Comp Arch 2 has a little bit of MIPS ASM, but that's not a required class. Open Source Development has C++ and Javascript, but that's also an elective.
So, if she didn't go teach herself other languages on the side, it's perfectly reasonable for a CS student to not know what a struct is. CS students don't study C.
Now, the professors take the "well if you can learn this you can learn another language easily" stand, and that's, in general, okay. However, by teaching only in a hand-holding (garbage collection, memory allocation, etc) language, they are not preparing the kids to learn other languages. Going from Java to something like Python wouldn't be bad. From Java to C requires a bigger leap in understanding. Suddenly, you have to know how much memory you need, and you have to be careful not to have overflows. You have to be much more careful because you can get so close to the metal and really mess things up. All they teach is high-level programming, though. Learning low-level and going to a high-level language would be more sensible. Then you have the knowledge and the foundation to work in any language. The direction we're taught, there end up being huge gaps in knowledge.
At the very least, they should teach what the strengths and weaknesses of different languages and programming paradigms are relative to each other. Since we're only taught Java, we're also only taught OOP and bottom-up methods.
Personally, I prefer a top-down approach since when I first learned Java in high school we were taught top-down as a way to force us into using multiple methods instead of putting everything in main() and get us used to thinking out our algorithms before writing code and discovering it doesn't work (didn't prevent that from happening altogether, but I think it would've been worse if we'd been taught bottom-up). If I was part of a team, though, bottom-up might be better since I'd only be a small part.
I don't know exactly what programming paradigm I was taught in high school, but it wasn't OOP. I think it was procedural (one of my friends at my current school put it as "your high school teaches Java like you're supposed to teach C"). In most cases, I like that way, since that's how I think about problems, but OOP or functional or whatever else might be called for in certain cases. OOP made perfect sense when we wrote Black Jack games.
The way my college teaches, they make it look like Java, OOP, and bottom-up are the perfect combination for everything, which is completely wrong. They might not mean to push those 3 as "best," but when you consider that most students probably only learn what they're told to learn, it's a problem. The only way to avoid being a one-trick-pony is to teach yourself a few extra languages and force yourself to try other ways of programming.
Admin