• jim (unregistered) in reply to Concerned

    Your obviously not British

  • (cs) in reply to schnitzi
    schnitzi:
    Concerned:
    Drinking alcohol is cool and all...

    .. but if you miss work because of it and cause your company problems, you should reevaluate your drinking.

    Believe it or not, that is not normal behavior. Most people outside of Australia have never missed work because of a hangover.

    Fixed your post.

    Ah yes, that night in 1983 when, after a hyped sporting victory over the yanks (we cheated more than they did), our Prime Minister - a famous drinker in his own right - proclaimed on live TV that "any boss who sacks someone for not showing up tomorrow is a bum".

  • Ben (unregistered) in reply to Congo
    Congo:
    Marketing droids:
    Anon:
    Gedoon:
    Well at least they can't blame the secretary... I mean, that's the way secretaries are hired, right? All your job qualifications are to look good and dress smart, no actuall skills required.

    You seem to be a little biased, sir. There are lots of skills that a secretary needs, and most places do hire them based on that.

    Name one.

    How about two, grammar and organizational skills?

    Aren't those pre-requisites for finishing GRADE SCHOOL? Seriously, if you don't have either of those, there is no office-based job you're suitable for.

  • captain obvious (unregistered) in reply to Jason
    Jason:
    ObiWayneKenobi:
    Isn't this standard operating procedure? Hire a well-dressed bullshit artist who can't code worth shit over a regular looking guy, and then regret it immediately when said suave con-person (to be PC) doesn't perform?

    After all, isn't that how we got Paula Bean (of the "Brillance" which bears her name), and Joe (of The Joe Board), and Mark (of The Abstract Candidate) and a slew of other characters featured in past articles on this very site?

    Don't we sound a little bitter this morning.

    Well Dressed does not necessarily mean "bullshit artist" and Regular Looking does not necessarily mean "good at his job."

    Relax a bit. Get rid of your preconceived notion that good looking guys (and girls) don't know what they're doing. You'll be happier in life. I promise.

    I'd call you a hypocrite, but you're probably just an idiot for completely missing his point.

  • JasonP (unregistered) in reply to Concerned
    Concerned:
    Drinking alcohol is cool and all...

    .. but if you miss work because of it and cause your company problems, you should reevaluate your drinking.

    Believe it or not, that is not normal behavior. Most people have never missed work because of a hangover.

    You are definitely not Australian.

  • captain obvious (unregistered) in reply to WhiskeyJack
    WhiskeyJack:
    OneOfTwelvePercent:
    That's a good one, I guess you might've missed that 12% of the US workforce calls in sick the day after the Superbowl...

    40% of all sick days are taken on Mondays and Fridays.

    Hmmm...

    please tell me that was a joke...
  • Anon (unregistered)

    "Believe it or not, that is not normal behavior. Most people have never missed work because of a hangover."

    I've written some awesome code whilst blootered. However it often doesn't compile the next day which is a real pain ;)

  • Raphe (unregistered) in reply to Ben
    Ben:
    Congo:
    Marketing droids:
    Anon:
    Gedoon:
    Well at least they can't blame the secretary... I mean, that's the way secretaries are hired, right? All your job qualifications are to look good and dress smart, no actuall skills required.

    You seem to be a little biased, sir. There are lots of skills that a secretary needs, and most places do hire them based on that.

    Name one.

    How about two, grammar and organizational skills?

    Aren't those pre-requisites for finishing GRADE SCHOOL? Seriously, if you don't have either of those, there is no office-based job you're suitable for.

    OK, so replace your current secretary with a randomly selected grade school graduate. Clearly you expect no difference in performance - probably because you benefit from a skilled and efficient secretary who takes so many problems off your plate that you no longer realise they exist.

  • NeoMojo (unregistered) in reply to Ben
    Ben:
    Congo:
    grammar and organizational skills?

    Aren't those pre-requisites for finishing GRADE SCHOOL? Seriously, if you don't have either of those, there is no office-based job you're suitable for.

    Have you read posts in internet forums? I doubt most people who post here are still in grade school, and yet so many posts exhibit simple grammatical error (then/than, your/you're, there/their/they're, etc.). You could try to claim that this is only an internet forum, but really, things that simple shouldn't need effort.

    E'mails I recieve on a regular basis from the adults I work with don't always have correct grammar.

    I would consider having good grammar a skill for a secretary or PA.

    Look at the desks of those around you at where you work. Are these paragons of organisational abilities? That's just what you can see.

    A good secretary or PA would need excellent organisational skills.

    Also typing. Touch typing would be invaluable.

    Being personable, as they would be the first point of contact for customers and employees wrt the person they are secretary or PA to.

    4 skills. The list is not yet exhausted.

  • NeoMojo (unregistered) in reply to NeoMojo

    error -> errors recieve -> receive

    Oh bitter irony.

  • (cs) in reply to NeoMojo
    NeoMojo:
    error -> errors recieve -> receive

    Oh bitter irony.

    Or indeed "O bitter irony"...

  • Mike (unregistered) in reply to ObiWayneKenobi
    Jason:
    Umm... I never once said that ALL well-dressed people are bullshit artists, and regular looking are worthless. What I meant was that almost all of these WTFs that involve some incompetent who gets hired, said person is almost always a flashy, suave con-artist and wows clueless management with bogus experience and/or buzzword bingo, only to be found out and fired a few months later

    Well the truth of the matter is, attractive people automatically get an advantage, both in hiring situations and promotions/salary. There's a (subconscious) tendency to assume that because someone is attractive, he or she has other desirable qualities as well. The same principle applies to height discrimination, especially in the US where there is a cultural bias against shorter persons. (Good luck proving it, but studies have shown it.)

    Obviously the best you can do is be aware of your prejudices and try to evaluate people objectively. No one's perfect, but most management will probably fall into the trap. The surprising thing about this story is how quickly he got fired. I guess I'm too used to horror stories about companies that make it almost impossible to fire people, for fear of lawsuits.

  • VP (unregistered) in reply to akatherder
    akatherder:
    Concerned:
    Drinking alcohol is cool and all...

    .. but if you miss work because of it and cause your company problems, you should reevaluate your drinking.

    Believe it or not, that is not normal behavior. Most people have never missed work because of a hangover.

    What the hell do you think sick days are for? You sound like my wife.

    There's no evidence presented of a habitual drinking problem that leads him to miss work more than this one occasion. On the contrary, having a hangover points to the fact that he isn't a frequent drinker.

    Ehm, how is that accurate in any way? When I was in uni I used to binge-drink 4-5 days a week and I cannot remember when I wasn't hangover or when I didn't have a blackout actually... Past 2 weeks I've been out drinking 2-3 days of the weekend with mates and man did I have hangovers.

  • VP (unregistered)

    Don't really see the problem with drinking...

    Every major release we have we celebrate with a corporately sponsored dinner (last one with 14 people cost around 5000 dollars or so) where you get a 5 course dinner with wine and an open bar afterwards. The policy is that you can show up whenever the next day, people usually show up around noon.

    We also have around 20 days of paid sickleave a year we can take whenever we feel like it without a note from a doctor. You can have as many sickdays with a note as you want and they are paid of course as well.

    Though I don't think it's bright to waste sickdays on hangovers I do not find it morally wrong to wake up one day when work is slow and say "I'm taking a couple days off to stress down". The days are there to make sure you are well, mental and physical stress can be just as big a reason to take a sickday or 5 as a fever or throwing up blood.

  • (cs) in reply to jim
    jim:
    Your obviously not British

    My obviously not British what?

  • Marketing droids (unregistered) in reply to Congo
    Congo:
    Marketing droids:
    Anon:
    Gedoon:
    Well at least they can't blame the secretary... I mean, that's the way secretaries are hired, right? All your job qualifications are to look good and dress smart, no actuall skills required.

    You seem to be a little biased, sir. There are lots of skills that a secretary needs, and most places do hire them based on that.

    Name one.

    How about two, grammar and organizational skills?

    No, most I know have neither.

  • (cs) in reply to captain obvious
    captain obvious:
    WhiskeyJack:
    OneOfTwelvePercent:
    That's a good one, I guess you might've missed that 12% of the US workforce calls in sick the day after the Superbowl...

    40% of all sick days are taken on Mondays and Fridays.

    Hmmm...

    please tell me that was a joke...

    Um, they did tell you it was a joke.

    About 50 times already.

    I mean we'll cut some of the asperger's cases, or whatever they are, some slack for not getting it was a joke at first. But are you really telling me you still aren't sure, even after it has already been explained to be a joke?

  • George (unregistered) in reply to xix

    I don't have any difficulty believing that 49% of people who work have missed a day due to hangover. Maybe even 2 over a 20 year stretch.

  • Tom Woolf (unregistered) in reply to punissuer
    punissuer:
    Tom Woolf:
    the same work I did while an employee at $125/day
    I hope your new employer is paying you more.

    Double to start, now over triple, with bonuses. Was a good move.

  • (cs) in reply to Marketing droids
    Marketing droids:
    Congo:
    How about two, grammar and organizational skills?
    No, most I know have neither.
    Oh, come on. Not even fingernail painting or reading paperback books?
  • ChiefCrazyTalk (unregistered) in reply to VP
    VP:
    people usually show up around noon.

    we call those "weekdays"

  • (cs) in reply to Someone You Know
    Someone You Know:
    jim:
    Your obviously not British

    My obviously not British what?

    English is such hard work, isn't it! I've heard about these American jobs. The pay sounds great, but then you learn more and discover that you get two weeks holiday a year, and if you're 5 minutes late more than 2 or 3 times ever you get sacked, and you're expected to go to dynamic team building or corporate events and shout and whoop and pretend to give a shit about your employers. Or maybe you're expected to actually give a shit - I forget.

  • Andrew (unregistered) in reply to dlikhten
    dlikhten:
    Unfortunately there is only so much Management can do. They assumed that the person was hired because he passed interviews with the managers/developers. Having the secretary accept this guy was a terrible move.

    Now TRWTF is that this guy sent out such a retarded email. Had I been in that position, not knowing ANY java and being hired by the secretary, I would have studied my ass off learning Java and trying to fit as much into that position as I could. Obviously opportunity knocked and Jon just slapped it in the face.

    Jon didn't know how to program at all! He couldn't have learned Java.

    He thought pseudo-code sentences were real Java statements. Who would think that "if myobject is null then do something" is bona-fide code?

  • LocalAreaLeech (unregistered) in reply to Mike
    Mike:
    That's the first time a comment has actually made me laugh out loud.

    And for the record, I confess that I have skipped a day of work due to a hangover at a previous job. I was young and stupid then. Now, instead of using alcohol to relieve tension, I just sit in someone else's cubicle and throw shoes at executives.

    Awesome :)

  • LocalAreaLeech (unregistered) in reply to WhiskeyJack
    WhiskeyJack:
    OneOfTwelvePercent:
    That's a good one, I guess you might've missed that 12% of the US workforce calls in sick the day after the Superbowl...

    40% of all sick days are taken on Mondays and Fridays.

    Hmmm...

    I wonder what percent of sick days taken by people who work Mon-Fri are on Mondays or Fridays instead of All sick days (which would included non Monday-Friday workers).

  • Valdez (unregistered)

    WTF thats all i can say!!!! WTF

  • Jb (unregistered)

    Wow, you can be fired for not knowing what your doing? What a novel idea. At the company I work at, that honor is reserved for showing up a minute late too often. Make it through the door and keep personal business to your cell and your pretty much safe.

    If you lack sufficient motivation to actually try and also distract your coworkers while not working, that will get some attention. But that just indicates a poor fit. The solution is to shuttle you around the company until you feel like doing your job.

    Hmm, I just forgot why I work so hard. I wonder if this could be related to the massive apathy and poor quality that pervades IT.

  • Daft Vader (unregistered) in reply to ObiWayneKenobi

    The sad thing is that if only the candidate had gone for a Business Analyst position rather than a measurably technical one, chances are they'd never have been rumbled if their BS was that good.

    In due time they'd have been in a position to hire and fire techies, lecture them about development methodologies, scream at them for not understanding business needs, or whatever.

    (I do value Business Analysts - good ones).

  • Ann E. Mouse (unregistered) in reply to The Masked Director of Development

    Yeah, you know what? I hear every programmer say this and every dev manager who thinks that they are a good dev manager but the HR process does not allow for this type of selection criteria. It is a freakin check list - that is all any HR dept has matching checkboxes. You can't prove those skills on a resume, HR can't check list "ability to learn and adapt". And you can't evaluate it in an interview with puzzles because it is not the same kind of problem solving skills - optimize for a bunch of internal corporate political criteria, work around insane security policies and meld incompatible technologies together while herding the lazy lolcats on your team (Im in yur dept, preventing progress on projectz) and create a working system vs why are man hole covers round = not the same skills.

    The only other thing HR can do is work with upper management to whitewash things and trump up paper trails when they want to fire someone.

  • wtf (unregistered) in reply to FredSaw
    FredSaw:
    Yes, I have worked under management like this. Thankfully they were scoured away during a cleansing purge a couple of years back, and current management is both competent and good-intentioned.
    aww, man, i feel for you...

    ... so, they are even monitoring your forum posts now?

  • Concerned is a wuss (unregistered) in reply to Concerned

    "Most people have never missed work because of a hangover." what planet are you from?

  • (cs) in reply to The General
    The General:
    NeoMojo:
    error -> errors recieve -> receive

    Oh bitter irony.

    Or indeed "O bitter irony"...

    Actually, that would be "Oh, bitter irony" if intended as an exclamation, which seems appropriate. (And I'm not going to let myself be distracted by discussions of what "sweet," "sour," "salty," or indeed "umami" irony might mean.)

    It lacks a comma, but wth. "O bitter irony" would suggest that the speaker is invoking some sort of goddess in charge of lack of knowledge, whom he's just pissed off, for some reason.

    O. Wait...

  • (cs) in reply to Grassfire
    Grassfire:
    I suspect the point was missed, the 40% comment was unrelated to the original Superbowl comment.

    Taken on it's own, it was intended to mean "Taken over a whole year, 40% of all sick days are taken on Monday or Friday". Which of course is logical, considering 40% of all work days (approx) over the course of the year occur on Monday or Friday.

    Hope that clears it up

    Not exactly. Here's the original quote:

    OneOfTwelvePercent:
    That's a good one, I guess you might've missed that 12% of the US workforce calls in sick the day after the Superbowl...
    Then there's a whole spurious chain of other argumentative posts to follow.

    Now. Tell me once more. In what way does "12% ... calls in sick the day after the Superbowl" relate to the weekly cycle, rather than to the annual cycle?

    Most of us can divide two by five ... although, on this site, I'm not entirely certain of that assumption.

    Most people blathering about percentages appear to have missed the point of the first relevant comment in the thread. That's called basic comprehension. Here in Britain, we used to teach it in around third grade or so.

    Occasionally, it comes in handy in the field of computer technology -- although it's not common, and it doesn't pay too well.

    But, no! I've missed your point entirely! I don't know how many sigmas 12% is out from 20% ... let me get my handy-dandy sigma calculator out ... why, it must be at least six! Six sigmas! The Magic Elixir of Project Management!

    I must recommend to my boss that he suggests that they hold a Superbowl every Sunday. That should improve productivity no end.

  • yomamma (unregistered) in reply to real_aardvark

    Getting drunk a few times a year is fun, but... getting drunk every weekend is more fun. It's not problematic. It's thereaputic.

    Didn't anyone goto college? In college, there's a saying. They drink every day that starts with a T: Today and tomorrow.

    Graduation itself won't change that. Work might. Marriage might. It's character development. But if not, so what?

    The reason for calling in sick does not matter; whether it's alcohol, midnight toking, late-night movies, depression, flu, job interview elsewhere, or flamewar, the end result is all the same: You called in sick.

    If the reason is irrelevant, it shows there is a concensus that alcohol consumption is bad in itself, regardless of circumstances. But it's a lifestyle choice that does not harm anyone else. So that attitude that it is just wrong because it is wrong, is judgmental, narrow-minded, and intolerant.

  • Audrey Kieger Morton (unregistered)
    Tony:
    http://www.shawaero.com/career_opportunities.htm
    What positions do you have available? Do you need any CNC programmers? Office assistant of any kind? Audrey M.
  • Al Coholic (unregistered) in reply to Some Psychologist

    High-functioning alcoholic? That's just silly. If you're functional, you don't have a problem.

    Of course, in your line of work you have an incentive to find problems where they don't exist.

    If you define deviance loosely enough, you can catch everybody.

  • Brennus (unregistered) in reply to SomeCoder

    Reminds me of when I was a gov contractor: I was the assistant design team leader for a horribly under-funded project and was re-doing the work that my predecessor had totally screwed, pulling 70 hour weeks and struggling through a mini-Everest of data flow diagrams. To get the after-images of circles and arrows out of my head, I went to a party and got way drunk. Next day I felt terrible but struggled to work, where I sat down in front of my computer and went to sleep.

    We were working in trailers and there was no privacy. Fortunately (as I heard later), when the project manager came walking through my trailer the DBA (a friend of mine) happened to be there. He swiveled my chair to face away from the PM and had a "conversation" with me until the PM left.

  • AF (unregistered) in reply to akatherder

    They're for diseases, etc.

    No, I'm not deluded enough to think that's the only time they're used.

  • AF (unregistered) in reply to AF
    AF:
    They're for diseases, etc.

    No, I'm not deluded enough to think that's the only time they're used.

    Damnit! I fail at quoting other people.

  • itsmo (unregistered) in reply to Matthew
    Matthew:
    What I don't get is why people like Jon even apply for such jobs in the first place. Do they think that programming is just that easy? Are they desperate for a job, any job, and hope they can BS their way long enough to be useful? Is it paid training?

    I just couldn't put myself through that kind of embarrassment of being called out like that. It is unthinkable.

    Yes - it's a nightmare isn't it? People who are so dumb they just don't realise how stupid they really are...

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