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Admin
@businessmanprogrammersteve:
To be fair, setting up a VMS system to play around on won't cost you a thousand bucks on eBay, you can get a VAX emulator (SIMH) for free as well as OpenVMS Hobbyist Licenses and media for a nominal fee.
If you do want to go the full hardware use, a second-hand Alpha server or desktop box can be had for a couple hundred bucks (I've got two Alphaservers at home, one 4100 and one 800, cost 200 and 100 GBP respectively).
As for documentation/training, HP's website contains the full docset and the people on comp.os.vms are very nice and friendly.
You might be right about the AS/400, but I'm sure you can get a cheap old one on Ebay. The big-iron IBM stuff can be emulated on a product called Hercules, not played around with that much but that is next on my list of Dinosaur skills to learn.
Admin
Thanks for spelling out the story for us. Really helped. Well done.
Admin
its as easy as 1, 2, Outsource....
Admin
I spent a few years working on an old Dibol system. The language itself isn't that bad to work with (well, I've seen worse, anyway), but it is horribly out-dated.
But for what it's worth, The Dibol language is still going, still being used, and is now owned by a company called Synergex, who have renamed it "Synergy", extended it, ported it to all the *nix varieties you can think of, and even produced a Windows version that is backward compatible with the old mainframe terminal code, but can also do windowy stuff.
Unfortunately, the only success it's had is in extending the shelf-life of some seriously antiquated code.
They newer versions of the language may have some decent features (they've even made a stab at an object model), but the amount of work required to make an old system written in Dibol into a modern system written in Synergy is pretty much the same as the amount of work required to ditch the old code and start over in C# or whatever.
The upshot of all that is that the only companies who are sticking with Synergy rather than rewriting in something more modern are the ultra-conservative types, typically those writing financial software (such as insurance and banks) where the integrity of any given function is so paramount that even changing it is verboten, let alone rewriting.
Admin
OPEN THE DOOR, GET ON THE FLOOR, EVERYBODY WALK THE DINOSAUR!!!!
BOOM BOOM AKALAKA BOOM BOOM!
Admin
"version 2's data structure was built by programmers fresh out of college, with no real-world experience and not a single architect to guide them"...
I think that would cause a failure in any project -- no team leadership. Sounds like a typical management WTF, they put together a non-team and expected team results.
Admin
Admin
I would just add that the reason why these projects almost always fail is because nobody has any idea what the scope of the project is. You alluded to this with the expectation of 1 or 2 years versus the reality of more than five. But the reason why the scope is so wrong is because the requirements for such a system are largely undocumented. These types of applications evolve over decades and many of their features become forgotten, except by those users who rely on them. When someone attempts to rewrite the application in a new language/platform, they usually do a redesign of the application architecture as well. This redesign fails to include much of the undocumented functionality of the original system, and users complain. So the expected functionality then gets pasted onto the new system in defiance of the new design, and you end up with a more tangled plate of spaghetti than you started out with.
Admin
I bought a rare copy of BABY/400 to learn RPG II on a PC. However, I cannot find any information on the BABY/400 whatsoever on the Internet so I have to struggle to figure it out. Eventually I may publish my notes to take advantage of the advertising revenue you can generate from exclusive content.
Admin
Fortunately, most of Synergex's customers have had great success extending the shelf life of perfectly good working applications without having to throw away years of investment. And, these applications are not limited to ultra-conservative solutions—name the industry and you'll find several Synergy/DE-based solutions that continue to thrive and grow. (And, I'm sure companies in "non-conservative" industries would argue that high-quality code is critical for them as well!).
The whole premise of this article is that the rewrite was not successful -- and this is such a common scenario. As I mentioned earlier, no matter what you're migrating from or to, you cannot take an application based on 20+ years of development by multiple developers and rewrite it in a new environment in 1, 2, or even 5 years! I'm sure there have been a few that have accomplished this, but at what cost? Was it based on sound business decisions and did it help the company reduce cost or increase business? Unfortunately these questions aren't usually asked until it's too late.
Admin
Advantages of using an indexed file on VMS, from memory: -Flexibility in terms of file structure, "struct" fields and index assertions -Wide variety of locking options on the level of records, a window of records, or the whole file. -Can specify how much to write behind before flushing. -Can specify sync or asynch for each i/o operation. -Journalling -Rudimentary version control on the file level. -Like other mainframe systems, VMS transparently manages redundant physical connections between CPUs and disks, and simultaneous control of the same device by multiple cpu's and multiple nodes. -Remote network files can be accessed with (mostly) the same routines. -VMS "logical names" for simplifying file systems. -Various special files-types like files that automatically self-destruct when you close the handle. -Manage security based on file access control lists, device allocations, disk quotas, named privileges, group membership, affiliated-system proxies, locking rules set by whoever else is using the record, process priority, chmod-style protection, and thread level(kernal, user, etc.) -A VMS system can optionally require explicit listing of who can access each file. -Verbose error handling. -Ridiculously well documented.
Disadvantages: -If you don't have a suitable library routine, you may have to get dirty stepping through control blocks. -Ridiculously well documented. -Lost the war to Unix 20 years ago.
Admin
The "triage of bugs" process really made up my day. I'll just assume that the broken database model would be assigned the "morgue" tag right away, unbalanced accounts would be marked "walking wounded" (at least it did something) and the full attention of the software medics could be swiftly focused towards the "immediate" category - fixing that lovely but bleeding control library...
Just tell me - was it the "advanced" kind of triage? Were the life-threatening bugs treated with painkillers?
Admin
And if you can be replaced, then why bother promoting you?
Admin
RPGII???
Jesus H. Christ! I'm going to go get the garlic and the wooden stake right the heck now.
Admin
Mind you, so is the idea that Dibol has any place at all on modern computer systems.
Admin
Pamela?
Admin
The meetings were futile. The replacement system was, as it happens, futile. The company ended up buying a third-party replacement and sacking (oops, sorry, "putting out to pasture") the lot of them.
Not so much a T-Rex; more a Europasaurus holgeri. Though I'm sure they all giggled, dementedly, on their way towards a gold watch.
Admin
Actually, we are going on our 32nd year, and are growing and thriving alongside our customers. Really, the priority for our customers is how well their applications meet their business needs, not how old they are or what they are written in. That being said, Synergy/DE has been continuously updated over the years, building in the latest technologies, and has therefore stood the test of time quite well.
Admin
yawn.
Admin
'Cause we all just wanna be big rockstars Work in corner office using two monitors The code comes easy and the coffee's free We're gonna loose our clients lots of money And we won't think about DB constraints our schema's insane and it makes no sense Every cool control Written in our library Will have no use but will break constantly and well.. Hey hey I wanna be a rockstar Hey hey I wanna be a rockstar
Admin
Man - you really have no clue what you're talking about do you!
Admin
Well, I never heard of it before, but the acronym sounds similar to COBOL, so it must suck, right?
Admin
people who try to write song parodies but have absolutely no concept of rhymes or meter piss me off. DIAF
Admin
They should just buy Guidewire already, and let people who know what they are doing develop the software.
Admin
@AT - IMHO people that are intelligent enough to truly understand the benefits of compassion, altruism, and the workings of a "non-zero sum" value system don't remain selfish enough to claim to be Republicans for very long.
And "Smart" can mean many things to many people... If your "folks" vote for all three (2.5??) parties as your use of "and" suggests, then noone was ever saying anything negative about them in the first place.
Also, I'd think (/hope) "real_aardvark" was being satirical. Otherwise his comment makes little sense in context to what he was replying to.
Admin
Forget eBay. First, google for Deathrow Cluster and get a free account on that VMS system. Second, ask there and in usenet groups comp.os.vms and comp.sys.dec for systems that will run VMS. Third, go to the vmshobbyist web site to find out what you need to do to get free membership in Encompass and then get a free hobbyist license for VMS and layered products, plus buy the new CD for $30, which includes VMS and a number of layered products. Also, check out www.openvms.org. (If you can't find some free hardware on which to run VMS, look at Charon-VAX as an emulator [free for hobbyists] and SimH as an emulator.) If you're really interested, it's quite easy to get going with VMS.
Admin
Look here: http://www.softresint.com/charon-vax/Tools_and_tips.htm#freeware and http://simh.trailing-edge.com/ followed by http://openvmshobbyist.com/ and you'll see how you can get going on VMS without any special hardware.
Admin
Admin
One of the most arrogant "rock stars" I knew had significant experience. He refused to attend training, could not work in a team, and refused to learn the technology that the rest of the team had adopted. He finally out of favor with management after his projects flamed out.
All junior programmers are not rock stars, and experience doesn't always cure someone of a crappy attitude.
Admin
Sometimes it's easier for companies to just let this particular breed of dinosaur fade into useless obscurity continuing to maintain old systems even if the company isn't really using those systems anymore. (I suspect this reaction is mainly seen in really large corporations. It would probably be a lot harder for a small company to afford having useless dinosaurs on the payroll.)
Admin
My company is migrating to a CRM & warehouse app based on Synergy.
I thought I was the only person who knew what it was :D
Admin
[quote user="blindman"] [quote user="PerdidoPunk"] [quote] SQL Server had been abandoned for indexed files stored on VMS.[/quote] Dumbasses.[/quote]
Obviously someone who has never used the technology.
Admin
Well, as an old VMSer, I moved to a senior position at a 100% MS based shop.
I have improved the systems throughput by over an order of magnitude, with the same hardware/software environment - simply by applying my not insignificant experience and mind.
There is a good reason I earn over 300K a year - a very very good reason. The kids I work with are gobsmacked, some have left, but my client is laughing all the way.
Many of the comments on this thread represent the clowns responsible for the mess I met when I started at this company. Juniors with insufficient experience and not enough knowledge (or brains) to realise just how incompetant and ignorant they are.
Of course, since they were formally educated by MS manuals and the like, it is hardly surprising that they are borderline incompetent - but I digress.
Instead of being out of pocket and potentially out of business, he is now marching head on - growing rapidly.
Moral: There is no substitute for 25 years of profgessional experience and an IQ of 145. Deal with it.
Mike
Admin
Twenty five years, a bulbous head, and a dime will get you a cup of Joe. Add $14.95 and you can even get a touch-typing lesson -- or maybe a beauty treatment that chops your fat left index finger in half.
Either one might come in handy.
Admin
O, I C - that was a joke - or was it intended to be unintelligible?
hmm, must have been, because your commentary clearly misses the point and has none of its own.
But then again, one does not expect much, thus rarely disappointed.
mka
Admin
Absolutely - a $7B p.a. company (houshold name), decided to port all their VMS applications to AIX keeping the original 4GL, but changing databases.
1000's of programs, 100s of man-years of code development and a real-time management of a handful of very expensive 24*7 manufacturing plants.
The goal? "Get the fuck off VMS at any cost"
Last I heard they had managed to move some of the applications and the project is two years into a 3month project plan with no end in sight. No manufacturing plants converted yet.
"Any cost" may turn out to be a big number.
The interesting part is that it was really hard to find any business goal, and no ROI calculation for the project. The best reason was that if the app. was on AIX then they could out-source maintenance and ops to India. rotfl - dickheads
Bigotry in management and a desire to "get the fuck off VMS". I guess HPs bungling is the root cause, and the company will succeed eventually in becoming an AIX site (what a noble goal- not?)- but at what cost?
Superstar 26yo MBAs with only 2 braincells are as usefull as superstar programmers fresh out of college. ie. not.
Admin
There is no causal relationship between the Stanford-Binet test and an ability to program, let alone to understand and/or implement and/or test and/or deliver requirements. For the record, my IQ is between 140 and 150 too. But so what?
Twenty five years is twenty five years. (I think even you might be able to get this syllogism.) I've worked with guys who have even more under their belt than that, and they were dangerous morons. I've dealt with guys who have a tenth the experience (in dog years) and they could show me a thing or two.
You, on the other hand, cannot type, cannot produce a coherent sentence, and are clearly full of yourself.
I would say, Get A Life, but you seem to have passed that opportunity by. Good luck with the $300K, and I hope it makes you happy.
Does that make my meaning plain, or are we going to have to resort to electro-shock therapy?
Admin
Yeah, i have seen 'Mulholland Drive' too. Let's see if i interpret this story correctly... This is the pathetic dreams of an old cobol systems programmer. He has no further career possibilities and a failed personal life. Younger and more skilled developers has been employed in his company and develops the next version of software. He himself will probably loose his job when support of the old version is dropped. Right?
Admin
re S-B test: correct. However there is, IIRC, a relationship between the score and cognitive skills, linguistic skills and logic skills, abilities far more important than the ability to remember syntax diagrams for large systems development.
re experience: correct. experience alone proves nothing, however zero experience precludes the individual from having gained the benefit of experience. Given two equally "intelligent" and educated individuals, on the balance of probabilities, the more experienced individual is likely to be more competent at any given task, be it as a removalist or the CEO of IBM.
re my life: My life is fine thank you. My CV reads well, and nothing you are likely to say will alter that.
re money: money is the ultimate labour saving device. Lack of money makes people envious and/or unhappy. Unhappy rich people are what you read about in the inquirer. Trust me, most rich people are very happy, however their lives would sell few tabloids. Only poor people think rich people are unhappy.
Whether you agree with me on these trivialities is irrelevant. I was software development director of a multi-billion dollar NYSE company before I was 30 - just to let you know how full of myself I really am. My success or ability is not in question. These days I have fun working with intelligent graduates who do not have chips on their shoulders - people altogether unlike you, juding by your commentary.
Oh, your original post, upon re-reading, is still unintelligible - guess I will need that electro-shock after all.
mka
Admin
I'm not sure that I understand why you need a "VMS Programmer". VMS is just another operating system. The O/S interfaces and the run time library are well documented and not THAT difficult to learn. Things tend to be named so as to indicate their functions rather than being named after someone's dog as in Unix.
I'd be happy to help you out. I spent twenty years of my career working with VMS as both a system administrator and a programmer. My salary demands are only moderately outrageous!
Richard B. Gilbert [email protected]
Admin
Well, found a cheap AS-400/Iseries timeshare system on the web...
http://www.rikascom.net/iseries.htm
So even folks that want to learn can do so.
Now, how to get the young folks interested in "legacy". Well, that is even more of a challenge. I wish I had the entire answer, but I think it goes back to generational exposure.
Generation one was exposed to paper tape and punched card.
Generation two was exposed to ascii terminals and timeshared environments.
Generation three was exposed to the blue screen of death.
Generation four was exposed to the Web.
Now we are approaching the period once again of applications being on servers - timeshared...(?)
Maybe there is something coming back only time will tell.
Bill.
Admin
No-one is learning VMS these days because it is thought to be a dying O/S. There is nothing wrong with VMS but Digital Equipment Corporation had an absolute genius for pricing itself out of the market. Compaq buying Digital and H-P buying Compaq didn't help either. H-P is not marketing VMS. If you don't believe me, try to buy a VMS license and a media kit from H-P; you'll have difficulty finding anybody who knows what VMS is let alone finding anyone who can/will sell you the license and media kit. I bought mine before Compaq and H-P got into the picture. . . .
Admin
CCSS have made available free web based OpenVMS training.
CCSS currently offer three, free, self-paced courses on the OpenVMS Operating System. These courses are targeted at students with a basic knowledge of either Windows or Unix/Linux who need or want to obtain fundamental knowledge about the use of OpenVMS either for work, career or as a hobby interest.
The CCSS Interactive Learning site is available from the CCSS - Computer Consulting System Services web page:
www.ccsscorp.com
Admin
The brighter ones amongst the young folks playing around with computers realise when they come across VMS that it is not like other things they have seen like linux and windows but VMS was actually designed.
Don't believe everything you read in comp.os.vms. There are young people discovering and appreciating VMS.
Admin
DIBOL and PL1 in the comments for a single topic...Bothj bring back many fond memories...and a few nightmares.
FWIW: I started programming in 1972..and do NOT consider myself a Disonaur....
Admin
I have played in both worlds (I am 51 and started my carerr when PCs were a novelty). And while I much prefer the structure, and the experience, that went into the legacy code, I see the need to learn new skills.
But OOP as it is currently being implemented is a joke. I remember a similar joke back in the 90's, we called it structured code.
Unreadable, unmaintainable, even by the author.