• sampsa Laine (unregistered) in reply to businessmanprogrammersteve

    @businessmanprogrammersteve:

    To be fair, setting up a VMS system to play around on won't cost you a thousand bucks on eBay, you can get a VAX emulator (SIMH) for free as well as OpenVMS Hobbyist Licenses and media for a nominal fee.

    If you do want to go the full hardware use, a second-hand Alpha server or desktop box can be had for a couple hundred bucks (I've got two Alphaservers at home, one 4100 and one 800, cost 200 and 100 GBP respectively).

    As for documentation/training, HP's website contains the full docset and the people on comp.os.vms are very nice and friendly.

    You might be right about the AS/400, but I'm sure you can get a cheap old one on Ebay. The big-iron IBM stuff can be emulated on a product called Hercules, not played around with that much but that is next on my list of Dinosaur skills to learn.

  • Mr Oli (unregistered) in reply to KattMan

    Thanks for spelling out the story for us. Really helped. Well done.

  • michael newport (unregistered) in reply to Andrew

    its as easy as 1, 2, Outsource....

  • Mr. Bean (unregistered)

    I spent a few years working on an old Dibol system. The language itself isn't that bad to work with (well, I've seen worse, anyway), but it is horribly out-dated.

    But for what it's worth, The Dibol language is still going, still being used, and is now owned by a company called Synergex, who have renamed it "Synergy", extended it, ported it to all the *nix varieties you can think of, and even produced a Windows version that is backward compatible with the old mainframe terminal code, but can also do windowy stuff.

    Unfortunately, the only success it's had is in extending the shelf-life of some seriously antiquated code.

    They newer versions of the language may have some decent features (they've even made a stab at an object model), but the amount of work required to make an old system written in Dibol into a modern system written in Synergy is pretty much the same as the amount of work required to ditch the old code and start over in C# or whatever.

    The upshot of all that is that the only companies who are sticking with Synergy rather than rewriting in something more modern are the ultra-conservative types, typically those writing financial software (such as insurance and banks) where the integrity of any given function is so paramount that even changing it is verboten, let alone rewriting.

  • I walked the dinosaur (unregistered)

    OPEN THE DOOR, GET ON THE FLOOR, EVERYBODY WALK THE DINOSAUR!!!!

    BOOM BOOM AKALAKA BOOM BOOM!

  • (cs)

    "version 2's data structure was built by programmers fresh out of college, with no real-world experience and not a single architect to guide them"...

    I think that would cause a failure in any project -- no team leadership. Sounds like a typical management WTF, they put together a non-team and expected team results.

  • blindman (unregistered) in reply to Andrew
    Andrew:
    blindman:
    PerdidoPunk:
    Currently I'm just a lowly Associate IT Analyst, but I know that if I were asked to redesign the application I work on from the ground up, I could do a good job of it.
    I'm sure that's exactly what all the rock stars at Insurcorp felt as well.
    SQL Server had been abandoned for indexed files stored on VMS.
    Dumbasses.

    Indexed data files are not a WTF. Every database is some kind of organized file format.

    A poorly designed SQL schema can be far worse than indexed files stored on VMS. Someone chose proper indexes on the VMS. Do you think the rock stars put in equivalent SQL indexes?

    Many COBOL-style data files are ISAM format. MySQL even uses an ISAM derivative for its table-files.

    Dumbbutt.
  • Sterling Camden (unregistered) in reply to William Mooney

    I would just add that the reason why these projects almost always fail is because nobody has any idea what the scope of the project is. You alluded to this with the expectation of 1 or 2 years versus the reality of more than five. But the reason why the scope is so wrong is because the requirements for such a system are largely undocumented. These types of applications evolve over decades and many of their features become forgotten, except by those users who rely on them. When someone attempts to rewrite the application in a new language/platform, they usually do a redesign of the application architecture as well. This redesign fails to include much of the undocumented functionality of the original system, and users complain. So the expected functionality then gets pasted onto the new system in defiance of the new design, and you end up with a more tangled plate of spaghetti than you started out with.

  • Robert S. Robbins (unregistered) in reply to hoobergoober
    hoobergoober:
    as far as the question of why younger folks aren't trained on older tech, businessmanprogrammersteve got it exactly right. unless you're willing to purchase an as/400 or mainframe, you can't learn those technologies on your own.

    I bought a rare copy of BABY/400 to learn RPG II on a PC. However, I cannot find any information on the BABY/400 whatsoever on the Internet so I have to struggle to figure it out. Eventually I may publish my notes to take advantage of the advertising revenue you can generate from exclusive content.

  • William Mooney (unregistered) in reply to Mr. Bean
    Mr. Bean:
    Unfortunately, the only success it's had is in extending the shelf-life of some seriously antiquated code.

    They newer versions of the language may have some decent features (they've even made a stab at an object model), but the amount of work required to make an old system written in Dibol into a modern system written in Synergy is pretty much the same as the amount of work required to ditch the old code and start over in C# or whatever.

    The upshot of all that is that the only companies who are sticking with Synergy rather than rewriting in something more modern are the ultra-conservative types, typically those writing financial software (such as insurance and banks) where the integrity of any given function is so paramount that even changing it is verboten, let alone rewriting.

    Fortunately, most of Synergex's customers have had great success extending the shelf life of perfectly good working applications without having to throw away years of investment. And, these applications are not limited to ultra-conservative solutions—name the industry and you'll find several Synergy/DE-based solutions that continue to thrive and grow. (And, I'm sure companies in "non-conservative" industries would argue that high-quality code is critical for them as well!).

    The whole premise of this article is that the rewrite was not successful -- and this is such a common scenario. As I mentioned earlier, no matter what you're migrating from or to, you cannot take an application based on 20+ years of development by multiple developers and rewrite it in a new environment in 1, 2, or even 5 years! I'm sure there have been a few that have accomplished this, but at what cost? Was it based on sound business decisions and did it help the company reduce cost or increase business? Unfortunately these questions aren't usually asked until it's too late.

  • thrax (unregistered) in reply to blindman

    Advantages of using an indexed file on VMS, from memory: -Flexibility in terms of file structure, "struct" fields and index assertions -Wide variety of locking options on the level of records, a window of records, or the whole file. -Can specify how much to write behind before flushing. -Can specify sync or asynch for each i/o operation. -Journalling -Rudimentary version control on the file level. -Like other mainframe systems, VMS transparently manages redundant physical connections between CPUs and disks, and simultaneous control of the same device by multiple cpu's and multiple nodes. -Remote network files can be accessed with (mostly) the same routines. -VMS "logical names" for simplifying file systems. -Various special files-types like files that automatically self-destruct when you close the handle. -Manage security based on file access control lists, device allocations, disk quotas, named privileges, group membership, affiliated-system proxies, locking rules set by whoever else is using the record, process priority, chmod-style protection, and thread level(kernal, user, etc.) -A VMS system can optionally require explicit listing of who can access each file. -Verbose error handling. -Ridiculously well documented.

    Disadvantages: -If you don't have a suitable library routine, you may have to get dirty stepping through control blocks. -Ridiculously well documented. -Lost the war to Unix 20 years ago.

  • Martin (unregistered)

    The "triage of bugs" process really made up my day. I'll just assume that the broken database model would be assigned the "morgue" tag right away, unbalanced accounts would be marked "walking wounded" (at least it did something) and the full attention of the software medics could be swiftly focused towards the "immediate" category - fixing that lovely but bleeding control library...

    Just tell me - was it the "advanced" kind of triage? Were the life-threatening bugs treated with painkillers?

  • Edward Royce (unregistered) in reply to Gary
    Gary:
    A Gould:
    Which leads to the next natural question - how come no-one is learning this tech? (My company works on an AS/400 system, and everytime I google for training material, all I get is loads of "help wanted" ads). Seems a shame that no-one is learning established systems anymore...
    You can't be promoted if you can't be replaced.

    And if you can be replaced, then why bother promoting you?

  • Edward Royce (unregistered) in reply to Robert S. Robbins
    Robert S. Robbins:
    hoobergoober:
    as far as the question of why younger folks aren't trained on older tech, businessmanprogrammersteve got it exactly right. unless you're willing to purchase an as/400 or mainframe, you can't learn those technologies on your own.

    I bought a rare copy of BABY/400 to learn RPG II on a PC. However, I cannot find any information on the BABY/400 whatsoever on the Internet so I have to struggle to figure it out. Eventually I may publish my notes to take advantage of the advertising revenue you can generate from exclusive content.

    RPGII???

    Jesus H. Christ! I'm going to go get the garlic and the wooden stake right the heck now.

  • (cs) in reply to William Mooney
    William Mooney:
    Alex, great article! As a 23-year veteran ... After all, isn't the only reason to have computers and applications in the first place to either reduce costs or increase business?
    Apparently, twenty-three years in the business isn't enough to thrash the naivety out of you people. This is rather sad.

    Mind you, so is the idea that Dibol has any place at all on modern computer systems.

  • El Chupanebre (unregistered) in reply to dtfinch
    dtfinch:
    I consume two rock stars every morning for breakfast.

    Pamela?

  • (cs) in reply to Richard Sargent
    Richard Sargent:
    akatherder:
    The lesson I garnered from the metaphor is that dinosaurs aren't extinct. They're just waiting for us to screw up badly enough and they'll retake the Earth.

    A guy I work with has a photocopied T-Rex on his wall from 15 or so years ago. The caption? "The mainframe is back ... and its pissed!"

    Christ, are those things still around? I was forced in to meetings with Cobollox ten years ago, and they all had exactly the same dimwit photocopy on their teeny-weeny little cubicle walls.

    The meetings were futile. The replacement system was, as it happens, futile. The company ended up buying a third-party replacement and sacking (oops, sorry, "putting out to pasture") the lot of them.

    Not so much a T-Rex; more a Europasaurus holgeri. Though I'm sure they all giggled, dementedly, on their way towards a gold watch.

  • William Mooney (unregistered) in reply to real_aardvark
    real_aardvark:
    William Mooney:
    Alex, great article! As a 23-year veteran ... After all, isn't the only reason to have computers and applications in the first place to either reduce costs or increase business?
    Apparently, twenty-three years in the business isn't enough to thrash the naivety out of you people. This is rather sad.

    Mind you, so is the idea that Dibol has any place at all on modern computer systems.

    Actually, we are going on our 32nd year, and are growing and thriving alongside our customers. Really, the priority for our customers is how well their applications meet their business needs, not how old they are or what they are written in. That being said, Synergy/DE has been continuously updated over the years, building in the latest technologies, and has therefore stood the test of time quite well.

  • Jimmy Bojangles (unregistered)

    yawn.

  • RockStar (unregistered)

    'Cause we all just wanna be big rockstars Work in corner office using two monitors The code comes easy and the coffee's free We're gonna loose our clients lots of money And we won't think about DB constraints our schema's insane and it makes no sense Every cool control Written in our library Will have no use but will break constantly and well.. Hey hey I wanna be a rockstar Hey hey I wanna be a rockstar

  • Guido (unregistered) in reply to real_aardvark
    real_aardvark:
    William Mooney:
    Alex, great article! As a 23-year veteran ... After all, isn't the only reason to have computers and applications in the first place to either reduce costs or increase business?
    Apparently, twenty-three years in the business isn't enough to thrash the naivety out of you people. This is rather sad.

    Mind you, so is the idea that Dibol has any place at all on modern computer systems.

    Man - you really have no clue what you're talking about do you!

  • DUMBOL (unregistered) in reply to Guido
    Guido:
    real_aardvark:
    William Mooney:
    Alex, great article! As a 23-year veteran ... After all, isn't the only reason to have computers and applications in the first place to either reduce costs or increase business?
    Apparently, twenty-three years in the business isn't enough to thrash the naivety out of you people. This is rather sad.

    Mind you, so is the idea that Dibol has any place at all on modern computer systems.

    Man - you really have no clue what you're talking about do you!

    Well, I never heard of it before, but the acronym sounds similar to COBOL, so it must suck, right?

  • (cs) in reply to RockStar
    RockStar:
    'Cause we all just wanna be big rockstars

    Work in corner office using two monitors The code comes easy and the coffee's free We're gonna loose our clients lots of money And we won't think about DB constraints our schema's insane and it makes no sense Every cool control Written in our library Will have no use but will break constantly and well.. Hey hey I wanna be a rockstar Hey hey I wanna be a rockstar

    people who try to write song parodies but have absolutely no concept of rhymes or meter piss me off. DIAF

  • James (unregistered) in reply to Andrew

    They should just buy Guidewire already, and let people who know what they are doing develop the software.

  • dut (unregistered) in reply to AT

    @AT - IMHO people that are intelligent enough to truly understand the benefits of compassion, altruism, and the workings of a "non-zero sum" value system don't remain selfish enough to claim to be Republicans for very long.

    And "Smart" can mean many things to many people... If your "folks" vote for all three (2.5??) parties as your use of "and" suggests, then noone was ever saying anything negative about them in the first place.

    Also, I'd think (/hope) "real_aardvark" was being satirical. Otherwise his comment makes little sense in context to what he was replying to.

  • TW (unregistered) in reply to businessmanprogrammersteve
    businessmanprogrammersteve:
    @A Gould: Why is nobody learning this tech? Let's say I see a few ads out of hundreds of programming job ads looking for AS/400 programmers, or people with VMS knowledge. To learn either I need to find at least some reference books and probably also some people to help me learn. Or find a good class on the subject. Possible on the Internet but harder than with more popular systems of today. Then I'd want to get a system I can practice on; in the case of VMS this is a thousand bucks on eBay; for AS/400 I don't even know. I'm the only person I know that's ever even installed Plan 9 on a spare computer to play around with, and that runs on standard PC hardware, so good luck finding people willing to do that! That gets me to the point of knowing the tech with no specific experience, which eliminates me from most job offers, which require "5 years experience in x technology...". Then if I do get my foot in the door somewhere I'm gaining experience that will continue to depreciate rapidly. On the other hand, I could spend my time learning heavily-used systems or systems on the rise and see better prospects all around.

    If your company needs programmers for obscure and dying systems, but wants to keep them around for the long term, maybe it should hire good programmers and teach them the technology. If you just need people that can keep a system up until you migrate off it... well, don't expect to find a legion of young talent jumping at that role.

    Forget eBay. First, google for Deathrow Cluster and get a free account on that VMS system. Second, ask there and in usenet groups comp.os.vms and comp.sys.dec for systems that will run VMS. Third, go to the vmshobbyist web site to find out what you need to do to get free membership in Encompass and then get a free hobbyist license for VMS and layered products, plus buy the new CD for $30, which includes VMS and a number of layered products. Also, check out www.openvms.org. (If you can't find some free hardware on which to run VMS, look at Charon-VAX as an emulator [free for hobbyists] and SimH as an emulator.) If you're really interested, it's quite easy to get going with VMS.

  • TW (unregistered) in reply to hoobergoober
    hoobergoober:
    as far as the question of why younger folks aren't trained on older tech, businessmanprogrammersteve got it exactly right. unless you're willing to purchase an as/400 or mainframe, you can't learn those technologies on your own. oracle, java, linux, sqlserver, websphere, etc. can all be downloaded for free (if only in some demo version). if you genuinely want to learn these technologies, all you need is a decent workstation and an internet connection. you can't say the same for mainframe technologies.

    Look here: http://www.softresint.com/charon-vax/Tools_and_tips.htm#freeware and http://simh.trailing-edge.com/ followed by http://openvmshobbyist.com/ and you'll see how you can get going on VMS without any special hardware.

  • what name (unregistered) in reply to no name
    no name:

    Although often (and it appears to be the case here) it's not that the old stuff is crap, it's just that it's getting to old to maintain.

    You would likely decide that the dam on the nearest river is "too old to maintain" and blast it and then start building a new one. I certainly don't want to live downstream from you.
  • Robbie (unregistered)

    One of the most arrogant "rock stars" I knew had significant experience. He refused to attend training, could not work in a team, and refused to learn the technology that the rest of the team had adopted. He finally out of favor with management after his projects flamed out.

    All junior programmers are not rock stars, and experience doesn't always cure someone of a crappy attitude.

  • MM (unregistered) in reply to KattMan
    KattMan:
    You can assume the ones that leave are the ones that don't want to learn, the ones that stay are looking at the future.
    Not necessarily. Many of the ones who stay won't want to learn anything new. Some people just don't like change. Those people are not going to willingly change jobs. They're going to stay put and want their old job to stay the same as it's always been. They're going to resist and argue against any change anybody else wants to make. If they lose that argument and are forced into change, they're going to do a lot of complaining about it and make little or no effort to be productive on the new (and therefore inherently crappy) system.

    Sometimes it's easier for companies to just let this particular breed of dinosaur fade into useless obscurity continuing to maintain old systems even if the company isn't really using those systems anymore. (I suspect this reaction is mainly seen in really large corporations. It would probably be a lot harder for a small company to afford having useless dinosaurs on the payroll.)

  • jc (unregistered) in reply to Yep

    My company is migrating to a CRM & warehouse app based on Synergy.

    I thought I was the only person who knew what it was :D

  • onedbguru (unregistered) in reply to blindman

    [quote user="blindman"] [quote user="PerdidoPunk"] [quote] SQL Server had been abandoned for indexed files stored on VMS.[/quote] Dumbasses.[/quote]

    Obviously someone who has never used the technology.

  • Philip (unregistered) in reply to onedbguru

    Well, as an old VMSer, I moved to a senior position at a 100% MS based shop.

    I have improved the systems throughput by over an order of magnitude, with the same hardware/software environment - simply by applying my not insignificant experience and mind.

    There is a good reason I earn over 300K a year - a very very good reason. The kids I work with are gobsmacked, some have left, but my client is laughing all the way.

    Many of the comments on this thread represent the clowns responsible for the mess I met when I started at this company. Juniors with insufficient experience and not enough knowledge (or brains) to realise just how incompetant and ignorant they are.

    Of course, since they were formally educated by MS manuals and the like, it is hardly surprising that they are borderline incompetent - but I digress.

    Instead of being out of pocket and potentially out of business, he is now marching head on - growing rapidly.

    Moral: There is no substitute for 25 years of profgessional experience and an IQ of 145. Deal with it.

    Mike

  • (cs) in reply to Philip
    Philip:
    Well, as an old VMSer, I moved to a senior position at a 100% MS based shop. <snip/>

    Moral: There is no substitute for 25 years of profgessional experience and an IQ of 145. Deal with it.

    Mike

    145 is quite low around here. Sometimes we like to substitute floating-point numbers, just for the heck of it.

    Twenty five years, a bulbous head, and a dime will get you a cup of Joe. Add $14.95 and you can even get a touch-typing lesson -- or maybe a beauty treatment that chops your fat left index finger in half.

    Either one might come in handy.

  • Mike (unregistered) in reply to real_aardvark

    O, I C - that was a joke - or was it intended to be unintelligible?

    hmm, must have been, because your commentary clearly misses the point and has none of its own.

    But then again, one does not expect much, thus rarely disappointed.

    mka

  • JoesGarage (unregistered) in reply to William Mooney

    Absolutely - a $7B p.a. company (houshold name), decided to port all their VMS applications to AIX keeping the original 4GL, but changing databases.

    1000's of programs, 100s of man-years of code development and a real-time management of a handful of very expensive 24*7 manufacturing plants.

    The goal? "Get the fuck off VMS at any cost"

    Last I heard they had managed to move some of the applications and the project is two years into a 3month project plan with no end in sight. No manufacturing plants converted yet.

    "Any cost" may turn out to be a big number.

    The interesting part is that it was really hard to find any business goal, and no ROI calculation for the project. The best reason was that if the app. was on AIX then they could out-source maintenance and ops to India. rotfl - dickheads

    Bigotry in management and a desire to "get the fuck off VMS". I guess HPs bungling is the root cause, and the company will succeed eventually in becoming an AIX site (what a noble goal- not?)- but at what cost?

    Superstar 26yo MBAs with only 2 braincells are as usefull as superstar programmers fresh out of college. ie. not.

  • (cs) in reply to Mike
    Mike:
    O, I C - that was a joke - or was it intended to be unintelligible?

    hmm, must have been, because your commentary clearly misses the point and has none of its own.

    But then again, one does not expect much, thus rarely disappointed.

    mka

    Let me make it entirely plain to you.

    There is no causal relationship between the Stanford-Binet test and an ability to program, let alone to understand and/or implement and/or test and/or deliver requirements. For the record, my IQ is between 140 and 150 too. But so what?

    Twenty five years is twenty five years. (I think even you might be able to get this syllogism.) I've worked with guys who have even more under their belt than that, and they were dangerous morons. I've dealt with guys who have a tenth the experience (in dog years) and they could show me a thing or two.

    You, on the other hand, cannot type, cannot produce a coherent sentence, and are clearly full of yourself.

    I would say, Get A Life, but you seem to have passed that opportunity by. Good luck with the $300K, and I hope it makes you happy.

    Does that make my meaning plain, or are we going to have to resort to electro-shock therapy?

  • Indima (unregistered)

    Yeah, i have seen 'Mulholland Drive' too. Let's see if i interpret this story correctly... This is the pathetic dreams of an old cobol systems programmer. He has no further career possibilities and a failed personal life. Younger and more skilled developers has been employed in his company and develops the next version of software. He himself will probably loose his job when support of the old version is dropped. Right?

  • Mike (unregistered) in reply to real_aardvark

    re S-B test: correct. However there is, IIRC, a relationship between the score and cognitive skills, linguistic skills and logic skills, abilities far more important than the ability to remember syntax diagrams for large systems development.

    re experience: correct. experience alone proves nothing, however zero experience precludes the individual from having gained the benefit of experience. Given two equally "intelligent" and educated individuals, on the balance of probabilities, the more experienced individual is likely to be more competent at any given task, be it as a removalist or the CEO of IBM.

    re my life: My life is fine thank you. My CV reads well, and nothing you are likely to say will alter that.

    re money: money is the ultimate labour saving device. Lack of money makes people envious and/or unhappy. Unhappy rich people are what you read about in the inquirer. Trust me, most rich people are very happy, however their lives would sell few tabloids. Only poor people think rich people are unhappy.

    Whether you agree with me on these trivialities is irrelevant. I was software development director of a multi-billion dollar NYSE company before I was 30 - just to let you know how full of myself I really am. My success or ability is not in question. These days I have fun working with intelligent graduates who do not have chips on their shoulders - people altogether unlike you, juding by your commentary.

    Oh, your original post, upon re-reading, is still unintelligible - guess I will need that electro-shock after all.

    mka

  • Richard B. Gilbert (unregistered) in reply to jetcitywoman

    I'm not sure that I understand why you need a "VMS Programmer". VMS is just another operating system. The O/S interfaces and the run time library are well documented and not THAT difficult to learn. Things tend to be named so as to indicate their functions rather than being named after someone's dog as in Unix.

    I'd be happy to help you out. I spent twenty years of my career working with VMS as both a system administrator and a programmer. My salary demands are only moderately outrageous!

    Richard B. Gilbert [email protected]

  • BillPedersen (unregistered) in reply to sampsa Laine

    Well, found a cheap AS-400/Iseries timeshare system on the web...

    http://www.rikascom.net/iseries.htm

    So even folks that want to learn can do so.

    Now, how to get the young folks interested in "legacy". Well, that is even more of a challenge. I wish I had the entire answer, but I think it goes back to generational exposure.

    Generation one was exposed to paper tape and punched card.

    Generation two was exposed to ascii terminals and timeshared environments.

    Generation three was exposed to the blue screen of death.

    Generation four was exposed to the Web.

    Now we are approaching the period once again of applications being on servers - timeshared...(?)

    Maybe there is something coming back only time will tell.

    Bill.

  • Richard B. Gilbert (unregistered) in reply to A Gould
    A Gould:
    jetcitywoman:
    On the reverse side of the coin, the major problem with the old VMS product? We can't hire any programmers to work on it, so it's supported by a gradually shrinking team of a handful of Cobol/Assembler programmers. An interesting case study of a rock-solid software application that eventually dies a natural death.

    Which leads to the next natural question - how come no-one is learning this tech? (My company works on an AS/400 system, and everytime I google for training material, all I get is loads of "help wanted" ads). Seems a shame that no-one is learning established systems anymore...

    No-one is learning VMS these days because it is thought to be a dying O/S. There is nothing wrong with VMS but Digital Equipment Corporation had an absolute genius for pricing itself out of the market. Compaq buying Digital and H-P buying Compaq didn't help either. H-P is not marketing VMS. If you don't believe me, try to buy a VMS license and a media kit from H-P; you'll have difficulty finding anybody who knows what VMS is let alone finding anyone who can/will sell you the license and media kit. I bought mine before Compaq and H-P got into the picture. . . .

  • Ian Miller (unregistered) in reply to Richard B. Gilbert

    CCSS have made available free web based OpenVMS training.

    CCSS currently offer three, free, self-paced courses on the OpenVMS Operating System. These courses are targeted at students with a basic knowledge of either Windows or Unix/Linux who need or want to obtain fundamental knowledge about the use of OpenVMS either for work, career or as a hobby interest.

    The CCSS Interactive Learning site is available from the CCSS - Computer Consulting System Services web page:

    www.ccsscorp.com

  • Ian Miller (unregistered) in reply to sampsa Laine

    The brighter ones amongst the young folks playing around with computers realise when they come across VMS that it is not like other things they have seen like linux and windows but VMS was actually designed.

    Don't believe everything you read in comp.os.vms. There are young people discovering and appreciating VMS.

  • A-Nona-Mouse (unregistered)

    DIBOL and PL1 in the comments for a single topic...Bothj bring back many fond memories...and a few nightmares.

    FWIW: I started programming in 1972..and do NOT consider myself a Disonaur....

  • Peter Allington (unregistered)

    I have played in both worlds (I am 51 and started my carerr when PCs were a novelty). And while I much prefer the structure, and the experience, that went into the legacy code, I see the need to learn new skills.

    But OOP as it is currently being implemented is a joke. I remember a similar joke back in the 90's, we called it structured code.

    Unreadable, unmaintainable, even by the author.

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