• (cs) in reply to R.Flowers

    R.Flowers:

     But the scary part is...

    Alex Papadimoulis:

    this was the pre-Internet days... 

    Noooooooo!!!!

    Except that they didn't really know what they were missing, unless they had a CompuServe or QLink account or something. I guess there were the old BBSes too.

     Back in those days, what I'd be missing would be the games...

    -shnar

  • (cs) in reply to Free
    Free:

     11 Results for sap,some good, others, not so much ;) http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sap

    Since this was never really answered properly, when most people in Business and IT talk about "SAP", they refer to the ERP/CRM/Does-It-All-And-Serve-Coffee enterprise application that many large companies are suckered into buying. Trying to customize it is very difficult and unconventional (i.e. learning SAP won't help anywhere but SAP). Read http://www.sap.com/solutions/business-suite/erp/index.epx for specifics of the application.

    Free:

    Isn't a 4GL just a Domain Specific Language where the domain consists of Data Entry and Reporting?

    In programming terms, 4GL stands for "4th Generation Languages". This is a rather broad, general term but the idea as I undertand it is that there is something translating the language 4 times before it becomes machine code. For example, Delphi is a 3GL language, since the compiler first changes the code into Assembly, which is then changed into Machine Code. Effectively each language translation is a "generation". Some consider the "visual" languages like Delphi, VB, C#, etc, as 4GLs since with the visual Form designer, there's another layer of translation (the visual code into Object Pascal/VB/C# code, etc).

    Wikipedia does a better job at explaining than I : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4GL

    -shnar

  • (cs) in reply to KenW
    KenW:

     Ummm... I'd beg to differ with Delphi being included as a 4GL. It doesn't do report generation, and it's database access is extremely generic. VB, OTOH, I'd agree. With everything being stored in the DB itself (including forms, queries, reports, etc.) it's definitely 4GL. 

    Troll? I know I shouldn't feed, but...

    What are you talking about? Form, Queries, Reports are stored in the database?!? What kind of VB do you use?

    I've used Delphi and VB for many years, and on the surface they're nearly identical. They both create Window's appliciations, using visual Form designers, can access any number of Databases (effectively anything ADO can), and use a relatively easy-to-learn language (Pascal or Basic, take your pick). Underneath the surface, Delphi excels, but I won't get into that. The point is, if VB can be considered a 4GL, then Delphi is a 4GL as well.

    -shnar

  • (cs) in reply to KenW
    KenW:

     A reporting tool isn't a report generator. There's a big difference in how reports are done in Access and how they're done in Delphi. There are also many different ways to create reports in Delphi (including directly to the API, or writing directly to the Printer Canvas (HDC) using Delphi's TPrinter class).


    I know of a reporting tool for VC++ (it's not a generator either). Does that make VC++ 4GL?
     

    You were talking about VB, not Access. But even in that regard, where the Form is stored doesn't matter, as long as it's stored. A .dfm, .frm, a database, who cares, all of the above would be considered 4GLs, since there's another layer of translating the code into usable parts (i.e. you're not typing in Pascal all the form/component/report creation, you're doing it visually and the tool is generating the code for you).

    As for reporting, there are tools for Delphi and C++ that can generate reports in exactly the same fashion as Access, so yes, VC++ does fit into that category...

    -shnar

  • (cs) in reply to Jeff S

    Jeff S:
    Ah!  Multi-valued fields.  Every *real* relational database should support those.  Stupid M$ Access.

    I can't figure out that one. I've done DB work for 10 years now (MS SQL, Oracle, MySql, even Interbase, Pervasive) and I've never seen a "multivalued field". What are those?

     -shnar

  • Protecting the "Innocent" (unregistered)

    I'm very distressed . . . I'm pretty sure I currently work for Mr. Moneybags . . . . . . . is there still hope for me?

  • (cs) in reply to Protecting the "Innocent"
    shnar:

    Jeff S:
    Ah!  Multi-valued fields.  Every *real* relational database should support those.  Stupid M$ Access.

    I can't figure out that one. I've done DB work for 10 years now (MS SQL, Oracle, MySql, even Interbase, Pervasive) and I've never seen a "multivalued field". What are those?

     -shnar

    That's when you break the first rule of normalization and store multiple pieces of data in 1 column; i.e., a CSV list of values.

    So, if you have a table of People and a table of Interests, and a person can have many interests, instead of creating a related many-to-many table of PeopleInterests, you just have 1 column in the People table in which you store a CSV list of "InterestID's". 

    In other words, multivalued fields are bad.  Very bad!  No indexes, no RI, no easy way to manipulate or query, no data-typing, etc.
  • (cs) in reply to shnar
    shnar:

    In programming terms, 4GL stands for "4th Generation Languages". This is a rather broad, general term but the idea as I undertand it is that there is something translating the language 4 times before it becomes machine code. For example, Delphi is a 3GL language, since the compiler first changes the code into Assembly, which is then changed into Machine Code. Effectively each language translation is a "generation". Some consider the "visual" languages like Delphi, VB, C#, etc, as 4GLs since with the visual Form designer, there's another layer of translation (the visual code into Object Pascal/VB/C# code, etc).

    Completely wrong. I think you confuse "language" with "compiler". For example, the same program could be directly compiled to machine code in one compiler, while being transformed 4 times (for whatever reason) in another compiler.
     

  • woohoo (unregistered) in reply to Jethris
    Anonymous:

    It sounds like the system was not normalized and too complex.

    Yes, I did in fact mention that there were normalization issues. But excuse me, too complex, with around 25 tables hosting little more than some peoples address infos? If MS would market this product for what it is, namely a nice little home/home office tool to create a database for one's video collection, perhaps we wouldn't see so many attempts to use it as an enterprise DBMS (as in this case)...

    Anonymous:

    To me, it sounds like you were inexperienced with the tool, and suffered through. 

     

     

    You bet I was - but I did develop quite some large (normalized ;o) databases on real ;o) DBMS's before. So I'm inclined to think that the problems still were mostly due to the strangeness of the tool (and the - ahem - programming language). Anyway, I haven't regretted leaving the world of MS office development for good ;o)

    captcha: giggity

  • (cs) in reply to GeekMessage
    GeekMessage:

    VB stores forms and reports in the database?  You wouldn't happen to mean Access by any chance?  Which would bring us back on topic... ;-)

    (Disclaimer:  I haven't used neither VB nor Access so far, so I may of course be wrong as to the facts...) 

     Oops. Yes, I did mean Access.
     

  • (cs) in reply to ammoQ
    ammoQ:

    I think VC++ can be used like a 4GL, but of course you can do dirty (low-level) 3GL things as well.

    Agreed. Like you can in Delphi. <g>
     

     

  • (cs) in reply to shnar
    shnar:

    Troll? I know I shouldn't feed, but...

    What are you talking about? Form, Queries, Reports are stored in the database?!? What kind of VB do you use?

    I've used Delphi and VB for many years, and on the surface they're nearly identical. They both create Window's appliciations, using visual Form designers, can access any number of Databases (effectively anything ADO can), and use a relatively easy-to-learn language (Pascal or Basic, take your pick). Underneath the surface, Delphi excels, but I won't get into that. The point is, if VB can be considered a 4GL, then Delphi is a 4GL as well.

    -shnar

    Gee... I've never been accused of being a troll before. <g>

    Actually, as I mentioned in a reply to AmmoQ, I intended to write Access and not VB. No trolling intended, just a mistake. My apologies.
     

  • (cs) in reply to shnar
    shnar:

    You were talking about VB, not Access. But even in that regard, where the Form is stored doesn't matter, as long as it's stored. A .dfm, .frm, a database, who cares, all of the above would be considered 4GLs, since there's another layer of translating the code into usable parts (i.e. you're not typing in Pascal all the form/component/report creation, you're doing it visually and the tool is generating the code for you).

    As for reporting, there are tools for Delphi and C++ that can generate reports in exactly the same fashion as Access, so yes, VC++ does fit into that category...

    -shnar

    The difference being that the form doesn't have to be stored in a .dfm in Delphi. You can go straight to the WinAPI, just like you can in C/C++. While Delphi may be able to be used as a 4GL, it doesn't have to be. It can be as 3GL as C++.

  • PinkFloyd43 (unregistered) in reply to bcammack

    Those tools mentioned, PICK, etc are 1000 times faster than any SQLServer, Sybase, Oracle used today! In the 80's we supported 3000 users on a little bitty box with 1sec response time, and it was a HUGE application with databases >10G . Check out Informix I think they grabbed up the last of the PICK stuff, too bad someone with more $$$ didn't grab it.

  • Vek (unregistered)

    This brings back memories of creating outlook add-ins that were never meant to see the light of day.

     

    Oh MAPI... how I hate thee... 

  • Onion (unregistered) in reply to GalacticCmdr

    GalacticCmdr:
    There is a vast gulf between a flexible and extensible tool and simply using the wrong tool for the job. Unfortunately, we seem to be forever burdened by people attempting to drive nails with a screwdriver.

    I couldn't agree more with you.  At least Mr. Moneybags did not destroy Access in trying "to improve" it. I know someone trying to improver her product with the same "drive nails with a screw driver" attitude and in the end creating far worse mess. Like Mr. Moneybag, she is trying to sell it to "to people who didn't know any better". pThe justification was to chase the latest fad in technology without learning how to use a hammer!

  • Thomas (unregistered) in reply to Onion

    Sad to say, I've done quite a bit of Access development in my day. Mercifully, those days are over. I've done things in Access that should never be tried at home (after all, I'm a professional.) One app I ran into synchronized three databases in LA, Hong Kong and Amsterdam.  

    The biggest problem with Access IMO is that it is a drug. It is *too* easy make an app. When new requirements come dribbling in, it is easier to just extend the existing application. Want security? We'll just use the built-in and build a robust model later. Want replication? We'll just use the built-in and build a robust version later? Want 50 users instead of the 10 that were using it? We'll just use nightly replication (and ignore the conflicts). And so it goes. One day you wake up and realize it is a crack whore sleeping next to you instead of a beautiful woman....Oh and your married to her/it.

    I've found that once you hit the 800 lbs gorilla application "upsizing" to SQL is no longer an option. You have to re-write the system (application and likely db design). 

     

  • Sanity (unregistered)

    I do have to say, it sounds a bit like Rails.

    Or at least, it sounds like the guy wanted some of the same things as the Rails guys want, without the burden of understanding how it works. ("I want multi-valued fields" really means "I don't understand database normalization.")

  • Tomer (unregistered)

    That was probably the reason Gabe Newell left Microsoft in the first place.

  • Anon (unregistered)

    Just so you guys know, Mr. MoneyBags was actually able to accomplish this. He just did it using SQL Server and the .NET Framework. It's called CranSoft and is sold to Fortune 500 companies to do their SAP data migration by a company called BackOffice Associates.

    The early version was in Access. Which was later scrapped since Access couldn't handle a database size of 2 GB.

    Last I heard, he sold the company off to Goldman Sachs.

  • eric bloedow (unregistered)

    from a john ringo book: "wizmo"...short for "wizbang gizmo".

  • QBall (unregistered)

    I wish I had enough money to pay people to alter my new software to keep just the stuff I liked about the older version.

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