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Q: What do walruses and ball bearings have in common? A: They both like a tight seal.
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[quote user="faceless_tech]That, and arent you supposed to graduate after year 12? Who ever heard of a year 13?[/quote]
Canadians.
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When creationist, I'm sorry, "Intelligent" designist, have actual evidence to look at then there will be some value in having them in a science class room. Until then, science classes should stick to the observable facts.
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How about wild-ass speculation on what is or is not "irreducibly complex"?
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I think that missing picture is what you see when you click the missing link.
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Aww, the ATM just has a touch of ADD.
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So, a postcript error is what might happen to you if you try to go F yourself. Over and over.
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Actually in New Zealand you start school on your 5th birthday, no matter when in the year it is.
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In (at least some parts of) Australia Year 13 is a way of repeating Year 12 (the final year of High School) without feeling stupid... Generally the subjects are the same in Year 12 and Year 13, and there is no real difference between them (except that I think the idea is to keep you with people who you have been through your schooling with, rather than have you learn with the year below you)
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Sunday? Christmas day? February 29th?
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Actually, rather than irreducibly complex systems being an argument against evolution, by the early 20th century, the existence of such systems was recognized as an almost necessary consequence of evolution.
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Actually in NZ you have the option (or your parents do) we chose not to start our boy on his 5th as there were only 4 weeks of school left and we were away for 2 of them. So we left it till the start of the next year.
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Having done some time in New Zealand (not making number plates), the old and new grade systems were/are (as far as I understood it):
Age..Old.........New ---..---.........--- ..5..Primmer.1...Year.1..* ..6..Primmer.2...Year.2..*.....Little.ones ..7..Standard.1..Year.3....+ ..8..Standard.2..Year.4....+ ..9..Standard.3..Year.5....+ .10..Standard.4..Year.6....+...Lower.school .11..Form.1......Year.7..#.+ .12..Form.2......Year.8..#.+ .13..Form.3......Year.9..# .14..Form.4......Year.10.# .15..Form.5......Year.11.#.....Upper.school .16..Form.6......Year.12.# .17..Form.7......Year.13.#
1..Ages may be off by one because of birthday thresholds. 2..A junior (lower) school can go up to either Y6 or Y8. 3..A senior (upper) school can start at either Y7 or Y9.
4..Year 13 used to be extra preparation for uni, usually for bright students.
Hope that helps.
Pronunciation of names is a thorny subject in NZ. Paraparaumu possibilities:
a...Para param (PARAchute PARAMeter) b...Para para oo moo (As above + u rhymes with MOO as in a cow) PC..Parap ahh were eee ahh moo (Or some such. When referred to by news readers, very few people actually know where this place is ...)
[Format nazis need not apply]
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No, not trolling, but the book is clearly labeled for a college and for the 12th grade. Where I come from we may use college level books in high school but I have never heard of using high school level books in college.
and really? repeat 12th grade without you feeling stupid? come on. Assuming you are 17 or 18 at that point, are you really fooled?
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In Australia we have 13 years (well, I think Queensland now does). In NSW we have Kindergarten (K) then years 1 to 12. The NZ school years are just numbered differently.
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Yes, and this was likely an Australian textbook being used by a New Zealand school.
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College really just means "school", so many highschools are named xxx College. (Though in Australia, there's some regional differences - in the A.C.T, there are separate schools for year 11 and 12 called Secondary Colleges) The term used for University is, University, or Uni. Ever notice how very few American Universities actually call themselves a "College"? The convention of calling University College in the USA is just an accident of common usage.
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I'll give you a hint. It has something to do with the fact that there is no way to prove it actually happens, at least in the rate required to form the existing biological specimen. How is that for your "observable facts"? Or have you been in this planet long enough to watch it happen?
It's funny that evolutionists say that there is no proof of inteligent design, when for every evidence they have in favor of evolution there's another against it.
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NZ schools have 13 years.
High schools are usually years 9-13 (some are years 7-13, and a few area schools are years 1-13).
You can leave after the age of 16, but most people do the full 13 years these days. You can technically attend University after gaining University Entrance (normally this is passed in year 12), but almost no-one does; the first year university courses assume that you've studied year 13.
"College" has no real meaning in New Zealand, it can refer to secondary schools or tertiary institutions. Some secondary and some tertiary institutions use it in their names. Tertiary institutions are usually called Universities or Polytechnics.
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It's probably worth pointing out that in New Zealand, like most of the western world, American-style fundamentalist Christianity has never really caught on, and evolution (even amongst mainstream Anglicans and Catholics) is pretty much a non-debate. Only a handful of flat-earthers and other cranks dispute it.
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Because it's an Australian book, where they start counting school years at age 6 (New Zealand starts counting at age 5). Sorry to provide such a rational and unentertaining reason, but 'tis the truth.
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You are wrong, it's just zero-based count
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:sigh: Not this shit again...
Here goes my wasting my time, not for you (since you'll just ignore me) but for others.
In science 'theory' means more than just an idea. It means an idea that EXPLAINS SOME OBSERVATIONS.
Also, EVOLUTION IS AN OBSERVED FACT. Drug resistance of bacteria is evolution. What is a theory is that evolution by natural selection accounts for the origin of all species. It explains well many features of the fossil record as well as of life today. In particular, it can explain apparently POOR design, as a relic from an earlier form, which selection pressures have not been sufficient to change. Look at a giraffe drinking - surely you could intelligently design that better.
In some ways evolution resembles a mathematical theorem. Given the following:
Then evolution by natural selection is an inevitable consequence. For it to account for the origin of species, the last requirement is enough time. The Earth is 4.5 billion years old - if you're going to dispute the radiometric dating I'd like you to UNDERSTAND it first, it's not wholly straightforward - so the remaining question, admittedly difficult to answer, is whether evolution is fast enough.
Most of the arguments of intelligent design proponents are in one way or another based on ignorance. Evolution isn't 'blind chance', apparent 'irreducible complexity' simply indicates lack of human imagination. There is no positive evidence in favour of intelligent design, only picking holes in evolutionary theory.
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No. Not even close.
Evolution is a fact. It has been observed.
Evolutionary theory is a description of the mechanisms of the fact of evolution. Like germ theory explores the mechanisms of why we get sick. In science, a "theory" does not mean "wild guess."
Every evidence they have in favor of evolution there's another against it? Really. What evidence against? People who dismiss evolution always say, "there's tons of evidence against evolution" and then never actually provide any. And yes, scientists say there is no proof of intelligent design. Do you have any? And no, any so-called evidence against evolution does NOT count. Even if evolution were false, that would not mean ID would have to be true.
Sorry to hijack this thread everyone...
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Unfortunately there are precious few if any open scientific problems that are accessible to schoolchildren. Possibly some ideas in planetary science, like whether Europa has an ocean beneath the ice. So one is forced to teach about historical debate, when the issues are now settled. This risks confusing children into thinking debate still exists where it has ceased. And it's being hijacked by the ID crowd.
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College means high school in NZ, although some tertiary institutes seem to use the word as well for reasons that I don't understand. When I lived in Brisbane, I was grade 11, but in NZ I was Year 12 (6th form) because Queenslanders start when they're six. They also have a Year 13 in Queensland if you choose to spread your last two years over three, usually this only happens if you are heavily involved in sports for the school which takes up all your time.
It's pretty common to use Aussie textbooks over here and that's why, for most textbooks, they tend to avoid putting the year level on the front.
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Comment needs JavaScript version 1.7.
Also, if you carefully examine how population genetics really works, it becomes obvious that a process of mutation and selection cannot prevent the genome from irrevocably deteriorating over time. Ignoring the deterioration, there's nowhere near enough time for all the required beneficial mutations to become fixed in the population. And putting those two problems together, the more time you wait for beneficial mutations to build up, the more time you allow for harmful ones to build up. And because DNA can't be selected for single letters - crossover occurs on the scale of large blocks - selecting for a beneficial mutations unavoidably brings a linked bunch of bad ones with it. Natural selection is great for getting rid of debilitating mutations and does a great job of choosing between variations so organisms can adapt to their environment, but it can't stop the constant buildup of tiny unelectable errors and it can certainly never create new functional biological systems. Eyeless fish, wingless beetles, and antibiotic resistant superbugs are great examples of natural selection preserving downhill changes because of a specialised environment. There's lots of hype about the amazing things that natural selection and mutation can create, given enough time, but realistically, the idea that complex life forms such as ourselves could have arisen entirely through a process of natural selection of mutations is falslified.
If you want a piece of genetic numerical simulation software, check out http://mendelsaccount.sourceforge.net/
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The "Press enter", I think it means you can push enter key is shortcut for OK button, but maybe that isn't what it means? Either way the message box is not sensible because it contains not enough information. It should say something like "Push enter key to continue" and then it is clearly
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It's also entirely impossible for hundreds of millions of electrical switches changing state billions of times a seconds in a space less than a square inch to every possibly work, and utterly absurd that an entire planet could have millions of such devices connected to each other simultainiously; each with an attached moving picture screen and a device with over a hundred buttons; and you'd have to be insane to believe that animals could intelligently use such an impossible system to effectivly communicate with each other...
Simple things can come together to build complex systems. And in such a huge universe, over such an unimaginable expanse of time, at some point some matter may happen to clump together in such a way as to cause other matter to clump together just like it... and it only has to happen once, in something like 2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 cubic light years of space, over 13,000,000,000 years...
And new functional systems can evolve, eyes for example,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_eye
And how is bacteria developing anti-biotic resistance 'downhill', for the bacteria?
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You don't need to say 'intelligent design vs random evolution'. You can just allow/encourage teachers to ask the students 'Come up with some problems with evolution? (there are many potential problems that THINKING students should easily be able to come up with.) If so, let's discuss them'.
There is no way that good students shouldn't be able to come up with problems with their understanding of evolution, even if other people have come up with explanations for them that the teacher can then help the students to see.
Instead they just say 'evolution is the way things happened (despite there being no PROOF), so accept what I say or get detention!'.
Evolution may or may not be the way things happened, but we can't prove it one way or the other until someone comes up with a time machine, so Darwin and his disciples may have got it all wrong. Just because there isn't an alternative theory that you can accept doesn't mean that it happened that way. By FORCING students to accept evolution as 'the truth', they will prevent any alternative theories being explored.
You may say 'what other possible alternative to evolution could there be?', but a thousand years ago, people would have said 'what other possible alternative to creation could there be?'.
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Hang on, that's the one thing that really annoys me. That isn't evolution. That is natural selection. Unfortunately, many people get the two confused. Natural selection is necessary for the theory of evolution, but evolution isn't a necessary consequence of natural selection.
Evolution is mutations making an organism more complex, drug resistance of bacteria is an example of lots of deaths actually making an organism less complex. You end up with a gene pool which is vastly inferior to the original.
It's like if a fatal disease came along which only affected humans with the 'blonde' gene. In a couple of generations, humanity would be 'resistant' to this disease. Not because of evolution, but because all the blonde people (or people with the recessive blonde gene) would be dead, so the survivors would be resistant. This wouldn't mean that the remaining humans were a new species, or even 'better' than the earlier humans, the gene pool is now reduced, and it may, in fact, have reduced the long term survival chances of humanity (eg if another disease comes along which doesn't affect people with the blond gene).
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Um.. warranty void?
See, son, it's
OF COURSE there is no warranty on it, and it's best used with a bonfire. When did you arrive on this planet?
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Actually computer simulations prooved that, random mutations and selection can create more complex stuff. Since the computing power and timerframe we have very limited compared to the whole Earth and it's 4 billion year age, we only see small steps in simulations. But it has been shown countless times, that complex organs can be created in small steps (eye, heart, etc.).
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You can't really proove anything, because you can't do all possible experiments, and can't observe all events. But using the proper methods (scientific method), you can reach some level of confidence. In the case of evolution scientists are very confident (somwhere near the level of mechanics and electrodynamics).
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Science is a process, so simply looking at the state of a theory at one point of time will teach students little, even if they understand the arguments involved.
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Most funny thing in all this that you must BELEIVE in scientific method to make it working
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You betray your ignorance right there. Evolution isn't random. You clearly don't understand how it works. Mutations may occur randomly, but which individuals survive to pass on those mutations is anything but random. And please go ahead and list these "many potential problems" or are you not, by your own defination THINKING?
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No it doesn't, that's just stupid. It's quite clear that individuals with "bad" mutations die and don't pass on their genes.
Now there is something interesting related to this, but it's not what you think. Any mutation that is beneficial in early life, but becomes potentially later, will actually build up in a population. That is because as long as your genes get you as far as reproducing, anything after that is no longer relevant to evolution (actually, it's a little more complicated because genes that help you live long enough to care for you child, still have some value). This is why genes for disease that occur late in life are not selected against by evolution.
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Maybe you need to re-read the post. I've bolded the relevant section for you.
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Look at the picture. It's showing inheritance--the stepchild of evolution. I'm sure you know how much they hate anything that resembles evolution.
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In NZ, you start school in Year 0 (sometimes 1) on or around your 5th birthday (even if it's in middle of the school year), and generally complete secondary school in the year you turn 18 (Year 13).
Addendum (2009-02-20 13:07): Just because I like facts straight... the old system of counting years in NZ was:
New Entrants Junior 1 & 2 (J1 & 2) Standard 1 - 4 (S1 later became J3) Form 1 - 7
Primary school officially covers New Entrants/Year 0 - Form 2/Year 8, but Forms 1 and 2 are often in a seperate school (Intermediate).
Bursary/University Entrance was sat in Form 7/Y13, 6th Form Certificate in Form 6 and School C(ertificate) in Form 5.
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The book is published in NZ. http://www.pearsoned.co.nz/search/titleDetails.asp?redirected=1&isbn=0582542855
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If you're talking about the teaching of the weaknesses of evolution, that doesn't make the textbooks wrong. It makes them sensible.
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Interesting debate going on. "Opener beware" indeed!