• (cs) in reply to DaveK
    DaveK:
    Let me be the third to add my voice to the growing chorus...
    Capt. Obvious:
    What's wrong with CVS that SVN fixes?
    What's wrong with CVS, that SVN fixes!
    Capt. Obvious:
    The only advantage I see to SVN is the rename/move directories/files. The sysadmin can already do that in CVS.

    Hope you found all the answers useful.

    Now, for the sake of the flame war, what can SVN do that Visual Source Safe can't (besides from VSS using file-based store and lack of security different from file-based)? Considering there are remote clients for VSS? Don't tell me you can't do non-exclusive checkout in VSS, though; you can.

  • Bobblehead Troll (unregistered) in reply to alegr
    alegr:
    Now, for the sake of the flame war, what can SVN do that Visual Source Safe can't (besides from VSS using file-based store and lack of security different from file-based)? Considering there are remote clients for VSS? Don't tell me you can't do non-exclusive checkout in VSS, though; you can.

    Now, for the sake of analogy, what can MySQL do that Access (or the Jet database, to be exact) can't?

  • (cs) in reply to warrior
    warrior:
    So what would happen if Lyle and Tyson ended up on the same project?
    They'd merge together and form spectate swamp.
  • (cs) in reply to Capt. Obvious
    Capt. Obvious:
    What's wrong with CVS that SVN fixes?

    (snip)

    I'm in a small shop. CVS already exists. I'm always looking for things that improve productivity, but I'm against changes for changes sake.

    To quote a random website:

    • File properties are versioned; no more "executable bit" hell
    • Overall revision number makes build versioning and regression testing much easier

    Furthermore and in addition to the things already mentioned:

    • Proper history across file copies, moves and renames. Yes, this has already been named but I just wanted to point out that this is so incredibly BORKED in CVS. An admin may be able to hack something together which will look sane at a cursory glance, but that doesn't mean CVS is even remotely on equal footing.
    • Intuitive branching. Combine the incomprehensible CVS branching support (1.1983.3.15.what???) with its lack of support for file renames and you have a recipe for disaster.
    • O(1) tagging and branching
    • The Apache module for Subversion which offers, among other things (quoted from subversion.tigris.org):

    "DAV-based browsing

    Use Web Folders or WebDrive or somesuch on your Windows box (or Windows XP's native DAV mounts) to browse the SVN repository with Windows Explorer. Mac OS X has builtin DAV server mounting. Nautilus has DAV capabilities. Then you have your Open Source tools such as cadaver, Goliath, etc.

    People can use existing libraries

    I couldn't even begin to count the number of HTTP tools and libraries available. If we had designed our own protocol, then we would have /none/ of those benefits. Heck, two HTTP library implementors (Joe Orton of Neon, and Daniel Stenberg of CURL) are regulars here. we wouldn't get that benefit. I've used Python's httplib (and a davlib of my own) to do a lot of testing of our server. No need to go and roll new protocol libraries.

    Existing tools

    One word: Ethereal :-) When we capture network traces, Ethereal already knows about HTTP. It's quite nice, but I know there are even better ones out there. But we also have other tools like squid and other (caching) proxies (see the next item).

    Caching proxies

    Subversion will work great with caching proxies. There is no longer a need for specialized tools like "cvsup". Just drop in a caching proxy, and you've already got your distributed read-only repository. That European dev team can just drop in the cache between them and the US server and their checkouts/updates will get cached for the benefit of the other team members. Commits will flow through, back to the US-based server.

    Sophisticated and broad-choice authentication

    We don't have to reimplement an authentication scheme for a new protocol. We can use all of the various schemes that have been defined for HTTP. Ever look at the CVS protocol? Ever see the "I Love You" or "I Hate You" lines? :-) That is all part of creating a new authentication scheme. But we get to use SSL and certificate-based auth if we want. Kerberos. NTLM. or even just simple Basic or Digest. And our users can come from text files, database, LDAP, or PAM. We don't have to reinvent the wheel cuz it is all available for Apache already.

    Awesome network server

    We don't have to worry about how to portably set TCP_CORK for optimal network packets. We don't have to worry about when sendfile() makes sense, or if it is available. We don't have to worry about dropped client connections, how to best use threads and processes to scale, request management, monitoring, logging, etc. Apache gives us all of that and a ton more. I *really* would not want to do that through xinetd. I mean... setting TCP_CORK on stdout? freaky :-)

    Well-defined on-wire compression

    We already have on-wire compression, similar to CVS's "-z#" switch. And we didn't do anything. The client library and server that we use just support it automatically for us, according to RFC 2616.

    Future interoperability

    In the future, we'll be able to interoperate with a multitude of IDEs and other WebDAV/DeltaV clients. As DeltaV becomes more prevalent, IDEs could very well use it for source code management, and we'll be right there without needing to write some MS/SCC library to interface to the tool."

    By the way, it's cute that you mention TortoiseCVS. It's not as if TortoiseSVN had just been released. How long have you been off the Internet?

    Also, I work at a small shop which is using Subversion successfully for about two and a half years (as a replacement for VSS which arguably makes CVS appear conceptually sound).

  • (cs) in reply to galgorah
    galgorah:
    warrior:
    So what would happen if Lyle and Tyson ended up on the same project?
    They'd merge together and form spectate swamp.

    YRMD. I didn't know about SpectateSwamp before. Now his alien spaghetti code will haunt my memories like the tentacles of Cthulhu. :-(

  • Kevin (unregistered)

    This reminds me of the behaviour of one of my senior developer coworkers at my first full software development job. And MUMPS sounds much like the state of that software we were working on. The guy had been with the company when it was founded and before fancy things like SQL databases, object-oriented programming, had been invented, and this senior developer scoff'd at the idea of using any of these new concepts, hell, why use standard technology when you can invent your own tools even down to the database level? I am sure it was cutting edge when it was originally created but for the year 2001 it was using technology that was about 10-15 years, most of it was undocumented and consisted of friendly single letter variables everywhere, with lots of patches thrown in chaotically over the years. It had many nice extremely unconventional and creative features, one was that GUI components were used to store crucial data (that had nothing to do with the GUI), etc. And what was it used for you ask? Well for the emergency 9-1-1 call centre dispatchers! Yes, your life was in very good hands (/sarcasm) if you happened to live in one of the many cities across Canada using this system! It was that company that taught me that software wtfs are usually the norm!

  • (cs) in reply to DaveK
    DaveK:
    Hope you found all the answers useful.

    I did, from you and several others.

    Thank you all.

  • Erik (unregistered) in reply to synp
    synp:
    Let's assume that there's this system that keeps track of jet engines (where they are, When they've had their various maintenance cycles, how many miles they've flown, when they're due for parts replacement, etc). Call this system JeTrack. Now suppose there's this guy, let's call him TSGT Tyson who's been with the Air Force for 15 years and has developed JeTrack from scratch to replace the old punched-card based system.

    Ouch. I'm in the commercial aviation world, as a sysadmin. This reminds me of the horrible engineering and maintenance applications we have to use. We actually have "JeTrack" from our engine manufacturer, and it keeps track of engine hours, overhaul schedules, etc. I think its last non-business-rules update was 10 years ago, so it's lots of fun getting it working on modern operating systems. You know, those newfangled Windows systems with multiple user accounts and non-administrator users?

    The history behind that mess is that JeTrack was originally written to run on a mainframe, then ported to UNIX, then ported to Windows. Well, parts of it were. Now, a Visual C++ Windows client app talks to a piece of Java code, which spawns a whole mess of CORBA code on both the client and server to handle all the (totally proprietary) database interaction. You can literally see all the layers of technology slapped on top of each other over a 25- or 30-year span.

    If Tyson's looking for work, I think he'd be happy working at this engine manufacturer. I swear there's a Tyson-like individual there who maintains the soft squishy center of JeTrack.

    Captcha: ingenium (What's Ingenium's atomic weight?)

  • Dredge Slug (unregistered) in reply to Shannon

    Come on fellas. It's called communication. You understood what he meant, I understood what he meant. He communicated his idea.

    Get a life!

  • Dredge Slug (unregistered) in reply to Shannon
    Shannon:
    Well its not quite what you're making it out to be, Jon.

    Spitted actually means that something was impaled on a spit (skewer type object for cooking meat)

    Spat means that something was ejected from the mouth.

    Two different words entirely, like Zylon said :D

    Come on fellas. It's called communication. You understood what he meant, I understood what he meant. He communicated his idea.

    Get a life!

  • Vic Tim (unregistered) in reply to jmucchiello
    jmucchiello:
    Steve should endeavor to have a new source code repository created and move everyone except Tyson to it. Then just let him make his magnificent changes to the code no one is using. He probably won't even notice that no one else is modifying the code for months.

    Nice. I'll do you one better-- tell him that he won, and now has sole authority over the codebase. Then he won't just notice-- he'll revel in it.

  • Coded in CACHE (unregistered)

    Every time I see MUMPS or CACHE` I have to read the article and see if it is about my last company or not. So far no hits.

  • SteveX (unregistered)

    This organization does have change management procedures. In fact, the particular files Tyson had to modify in order to disable the error logger & bookmarker are marked as 'critical system files'. Changes to them have to be discussed and reviewed before even being placed on the test system.

    As another WTF, the fix for these changes are still not in place (now only 1/2 way through the month-long review and waiting period before being pushed to production).

    This organization really hates to fire anyone, no matter how unprofessionally they act.

  • Jeremy (unregistered) in reply to BentFranklin
    Risking the entire company and everyone else's jobs for his own misguided sense of job security is extremely selfish and antisocial.

    To be fair, "extremely selfish and antisocial" is par for the course in many organizations.

  • Dan (unregistered) in reply to bjolling
    bjolling:
    Duke of New York:
    amischiefr:
    No, the real WTF is that isn't a picture of a castle, and it is horribly Photoshopped.
    It's only a model.
    Shhh! Knights, I bid you welcome to your new home. Let us ride ... to Camelot!

    Perhaps not. Camelot is a silly place.

  • John (unregistered) in reply to Befuddled
    Befuddled:
    No, TRWTF is 8am meetings.

    Indeed, shouldn't people still be sleeping at that time?

    Captcha: quis (?)

  • The grammar nazi (unregistered) in reply to Cheong
    Christian:
    (I suspect that he wish anyone be hired to investigate possibility of migration for the system to shake their head and say such complex (or in different terms, chaotic) system has very high risk of failing in one way or another when migrating, so better keep using it until it breaks.

    [...] investigate THE possibility [...] [...] has A very high risk [...]

  • Dr_Barnowl (unregistered) in reply to alegr

    There are enormous amounts of articles describing why VSS 6 was bad. TFS (the new VSS) might be better, but I have no experience of it.

    http://www.subversionary.org/propaganda/why-not-vss

    The question for me is why you would use a proprietary VCS these days. There just isn't a good reason to do so in my experience. SVN is stable, well understood, and very good at it's job.

    The new crop of next generation VCS are better though, IMHO. If nothing else, the sheer speed of them makes them useful in ways that Subversion would also be, if it was quite so fast. For Windows, I like Bazaar, which is good enough for most purposes.

    http://git-scm.com/ http://bazaar-vcs.org/ http://www.selenic.com/mercurial/

  • Pewee (unregistered) in reply to alegr
    alegr:
    DaveK:
    Let me be the third to add my voice to the growing chorus...
    Capt. Obvious:
    What's wrong with CVS that SVN fixes?
    What's wrong with CVS, that SVN fixes!
    Capt. Obvious:
    The only advantage I see to SVN is the rename/move directories/files. The sysadmin can already do that in CVS.

    Hope you found all the answers useful.

    Now, for the sake of the flame war, what can SVN do that Visual Source Safe can't (besides from VSS using file-based store and lack of security different from file-based)? Considering there are remote clients for VSS? Don't tell me you can't do non-exclusive checkout in VSS, though; you can.

    Run natively on Linux (client and server)? Show its code source?

  • Nilt (unregistered) in reply to Gary Williams
    Gary Williams:
    The real WTF is that tyson hasn't been investigated. The whole "last login" change reeks of red flags. What's he up to?!
    And the storing of customer CC data in his own personal trove wasn't?!
  • NelC (unregistered)

    I spy spam!

  • Reginal Plinkman (unregistered)

    Laugh now, just wait until you are the one with gray hair, and the upstarts start crucifying you for every little flaw.

  • Cough, the cat (unregistered) in reply to Robajob

    Do you really believe that the bible was written in English 2,000 years ago?

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