• (cs) in reply to piskvorr
    piskvorr:
    UNICORNS, not ponies. Those are absolutely NOT interchangeable
    [image]
  • Smitt-Tay (unregistered) in reply to BlackBart

    Do you even know what are you talking about ?

  • (cs) in reply to Beat
    Beat:
    there are only tree correct solutions to that

    a) resign b) resign c) Ignore the idiot and use mail d)Bitch slap Vince and tell him to go make some gantt charts while you do your job

    FTFM

  • the real trtrwtf (unregistered) in reply to Fred
    Fred:
    golddog:
    To me, the real WTF (and what makes the story unbelievable) is, once the Rick found that the customer wasn't a total moron, Rick and the customer didn't just say, "fax me a couple of pages of hex crap while sending me a dump electronically," so would think he won while solving the problem effectively.
    This.

    The best way to deal with idiots in positions of power is to let them think they are in charge, while giving them busy-work to keep them out of the way.

    You mean, let Vince "help out" with typing and proofreading the faxed hex? Nice.

  • the real trtrwtf (unregistered) in reply to the real trtrwtf
    the real trtrwtf :
    Fred:
    golddog:
    To me, the real WTF (and what makes the story unbelievable) is, once the Rick found that the customer wasn't a total moron, Rick and the customer didn't just say, "fax me a couple of pages of hex crap while sending me a dump electronically," so would think he won while solving the problem effectively.
    This.

    The best way to deal with idiots in positions of power is to let them think they are in charge, while giving them busy-work to keep them out of the way.

    You mean, let Vince "help out" with typing and proofreading the faxed hex? Nice.

    (they probably commandeered a conference room for the faxed hex project... the FaxedHexPlex) (and some of the interns working late on the project probably got a little naughty in there, having some faxed FaxedHexPlex sex) (and they got caught because they were bragging about it in a FaxedHexPlex sex text, I expect)

  • (cs) in reply to Bob
    Bob:
    the computronium will flow through the air and infect their machines.
    Christ on a bike! You're telling me it's air-born now?!?!
  • Anon (unregistered) in reply to the real trtrwtf
    the real trtrwtf:
    the real trtrwtf :
    Fred:
    golddog:
    To me, the real WTF (and what makes the story unbelievable) is, once the Rick found that the customer wasn't a total moron, Rick and the customer didn't just say, "fax me a couple of pages of hex crap while sending me a dump electronically," so would think he won while solving the problem effectively.
    This.

    The best way to deal with idiots in positions of power is to let them think they are in charge, while giving them busy-work to keep them out of the way.

    You mean, let Vince "help out" with typing and proofreading the faxed hex? Nice.

    (they probably commandeered a conference room for the faxed hex project... the FaxedHexPlex) (and some of the interns working late on the project probably got a little naughty in there, having some faxed FaxedHexPlex sex) (and they got caught because they were bragging about it in a FaxedHexPlex sex text, I expect)

    next!

  • foo (unregistered) in reply to Bob
    Bob:
    FragFrog:
    Am I the only one thinking that they might also send over the dump on a thumb drive, then hook up that thumb drive to a non-networked PC, analyze the dump, then format the PC? Even Vince should be convinced that there is no way to transfer a virus if it never touches their network.

    Heck, load it on a netbook, then throw away the netbook, it'll still be cheaper than wasting so many company hours.

    No, Vince read the line once about "the only safe computer is one that's unplugged, encased in concrete and stored in a Faraday cage in a bank vault, protected by rabid panthers". He didn't understand it, but he read it, so he thinks that the computronium will flow through the air and infect their machines.

    "Yes, Mr. Bigboss sir, so would you please sign this form authorizing the building of a bank vault and Faraday cage in my office and buying those panthers as I've been asking for years."

  • Anon (unregistered) in reply to Kuba
    Kuba:
    I've seen it first hand: the notion that somehow passing "unsafe data" through a human "monk" will automagically make it safe again.

    Well obviously, the unpaid college interns should easily spot a virus in the pages and pages of printed hex code and raise an alert. No virus scanner beats an inexperienced and bored college kid squinting at pages and pages of a core dump.

  • foo (unregistered) in reply to the real trtrwtf
    the real trtrwtf:
    (and some of the interns working late on the project probably got a little naughty in there, having some faxed FaxedHexPlex sex)
    So what? Didn't you read the article: They can't get a virus.
  • progree (unregistered) in reply to Kuba
    Kuba:
    BlackBart:
    frits:
    Was this C++? I would have looked for uninitialized variables before even contacting the customer. I also would have looked for stack overflows and buffer overruns. C and/or C++ is the devil's playground in most developers hands, idle or not.

    Clearly this wasn't C or C++. C and C++ are not advanced enough to be configured to generate a dump file without a lot of work or adding a dump routine - which Vince would surely have disallowed as being too likely to catch a virus.

    I think TRWTF is that C/C++ compilers can be at best expected to produce warnings about that. There should be a way to force a C/C++ compiler to simply initialize everything. It should only be disabled on the little (if any) code where benchmarks show significant and useful speed gains.

    I respectfully disagree - c is not intended to be safe; it is intended to be a convenient step above assembly language. There are many instances where it just isn't necessary to initialize areas of data. Unsafe, yes. Necessary, no. c++... actually, c++ shouldn't exist (for various reasons). But, if you consider c++ to be a version of c which is supposed to compete with the higher-level big-boys, then maybe you have a point.

    But I certainly don't expect uninitialized data in assembler to be flagged; thus, I don't expect c to flag it either.

    CAPTCHA: ingenium - What ingenium thought you could take c and turn it into a real language? (apologies to stroustrap).

  • Don (unregistered) in reply to ContraCorners
    ContraCorners:
    snoofle:
    golddog:
    Oh, that and a PM being able to stop technical people from taking the right actions. Fails smell test.
    I've worked for a few idiots like Vince. The best way to teach them the true level of their own stupidity is to give them what they want, in front of their boss. Print out 5 cases of paper worth of hex dumps and lug it into their office, making sure their boss sees and hears it.

    Then finish with: The next time I try to tell you that things aren't done this way, there's a reason and you should listen. Now can I go do it the sensible way? Or do you really want me to spend weeks doing it this way?

    Agreed. But get the idiot's instructions in writing first.
    mmm... been down that street before. "Whaddya mean, I TOLD you to do it {that} way". Roly eyes to boss "See what I'm dealing with here?" Captcha: Genitus. Scary stuff.

  • (cs) in reply to Don
    Don:
    ContraCorners:
    snoofle:
    golddog:
    Oh, that and a PM being able to stop technical people from taking the right actions. Fails smell test.
    I've worked for a few idiots like Vince. The best way to teach them the true level of their own stupidity is to give them what they want, in front of their boss. Print out 5 cases of paper worth of hex dumps and lug it into their office, making sure their boss sees and hears it.

    Then finish with: The next time I try to tell you that things aren't done this way, there's a reason and you should listen. Now can I go do it the sensible way? Or do you really want me to spend weeks doing it this way?

    Agreed. But get the idiot's instructions in writing first.
    mmm... been down that street before. "Whaddya mean, I TOLD you to do it {that} way". Roly eyes to boss "See what I'm dealing with here?" Captcha: Genitus. Scary stuff.
    That's when you bring in the defence of justifiable homicide...

  • i </3 ipods (unregistered) in reply to C-Octothorpe
    C-Octothorpe:
    Beat:
    there are only tree correct solutions to that

    a) resign b) resign c) Ignore the idiot and use mail d)Bitch slap Vince and tell him to go make some gantt charts while you do your job

    FTFM
    A slap to the face, that's all? I'd curl up the previous night with a copy of 120 Days of Sodom to get some ideas first. Not just a slap to the face. You're not going to make him into a good boy with just a slap to the face.

    Unless the slaps are interspersed between some more Deliverance-esque treatment.

  • (cs)

    Ok, so the real WTF is that a developer was taking orders from a project manager right?

  • Mike (unregistered)

    TRWTF is people taking this fake story seriously.

  • Herr Otto Flick (unregistered) in reply to BlackBart
    BlackBart:
    frits:
    Was this C++? I would have looked for uninitialized variables before even contacting the customer. I also would have looked for stack overflows and buffer overruns. C and/or C++ is the devil's playground in most developers hands, idle or not.

    Clearly this wasn't C or C++. C and C++ are not advanced enough to be configured to generate a dump file without a lot of work or adding a dump routine - which Vince would surely have disallowed as being too likely to catch a virus.

    You've really never used C or C++, have you?

  • (cs) in reply to Herr Otto Flick
    Herr Otto Flick:
    BlackBart:
    frits:
    Was this C++? I would have looked for uninitialized variables before even contacting the customer. I also would have looked for stack overflows and buffer overruns. C and/or C++ is the devil's playground in most developers hands, idle or not.

    Clearly this wasn't C or C++. C and C++ are not advanced enough to be configured to generate a dump file without a lot of work or adding a dump routine - which Vince would surely have disallowed as being too likely to catch a virus.

    You've really never used C or C++, have you?

    You've really never heard of humor, have you?

  • (cs) in reply to progree
    progree:
    Kuba:
    BlackBart:
    frits:
    Was this C++? I would have looked for uninitialized variables before even contacting the customer. I also would have looked for stack overflows and buffer overruns. C and/or C++ is the devil's playground in most developers hands, idle or not.

    Clearly this wasn't C or C++. C and C++ are not advanced enough to be configured to generate a dump file without a lot of work or adding a dump routine - which Vince would surely have disallowed as being too likely to catch a virus.

    I think TRWTF is that C/C++ compilers can be at best expected to produce warnings about that. There should be a way to force a C/C++ compiler to simply initialize everything. It should only be disabled on the little (if any) code where benchmarks show significant and useful speed gains.

    I respectfully disagree - c is not intended to be safe; it is intended to be a convenient step above assembly language. There are many instances where it just isn't necessary to initialize areas of data. Unsafe, yes. Necessary, no.

    I must respectfully disagree. C was created with the explicit purpose of OS programming, specifically, to write UNIX in. OSes need to be secure, and C fails miserably at that. We've known that since 1989, and consistently ignored it for just as long.

    Considering the amount of damage that's been done in the last 22 years due to buffer overruns and similar C flaws, shouldn't writing any network facing software (OSes, browsers, Internet tools of all kinds) in C or derivatives (C++, Objective-C, etc) be considered an act of criminal negligence by now?

  • EverInterview (unregistered) in reply to pfft

    I think it has to be pounded in metal, otherwise it can be changed...

  • the real trtrwtf (unregistered) in reply to Mason Wheeler
    Mason Wheeler:
    Considering the amount of damage that's been done in the last 22 years due to buffer overruns and similar C flaws, shouldn't writing any network facing software (OSes, browsers, Internet tools of all kinds) in C or derivatives (C++, Objective-C, etc) be considered an act of criminal negligence by now?

    You're a liberal, aren't you?

  • anonymous_coder() (unregistered) in reply to Mason Wheeler
    Mason Wheeler:
    Considering the amount of damage that's been done in the last 22 years due to buffer overruns and similar C flaws, shouldn't writing any network facing software (OSes, browsers, Internet tools of all kinds) in C or derivatives (C++, Objective-C, etc) be considered an act of criminal negligence by now?

    I have a few operating systems (OpenBSD, Trusted Solaris) that might want to argue that point...

  • (cs) in reply to the real trtrwtf
    the real trtrwtf:
    Mason Wheeler:
    Considering the amount of damage that's been done in the last 22 years due to buffer overruns and similar C flaws, shouldn't writing any network facing software (OSes, browsers, Internet tools of all kinds) in C or derivatives (C++, Objective-C, etc) be considered an act of criminal negligence by now?

    You're a liberal, aren't you?

    A lot of conservatives like to call me that. Then again, a lot of liberals these days think I'm a far-right extremist. Seems to me that means I'm exactly where I should be. :P

  • 10000 monkeys (unregistered) in reply to Beat
    Beat:
    there are only tree correct solutions to ..

    a) resign b) ? c) profit!

  • the real trtrwtf (unregistered) in reply to Mason Wheeler
    Mason Wheeler:
    the real trtrwtf:
    Mason Wheeler:
    Considering the amount of damage that's been done in the last 22 years due to buffer overruns and similar C flaws, shouldn't writing any network facing software (OSes, browsers, Internet tools of all kinds) in C or derivatives (C++, Objective-C, etc) be considered an act of criminal negligence by now?

    You're a liberal, aren't you?

    A lot of conservatives like to call me that. Then again, a lot of liberals these days think I'm a far-right extremist. Seems to me that means I'm exactly where I should be. :P

    Trouble is, I'm a Phil Ochs leftist calling you that...

  • Jupiter (unregistered) in reply to Mason Wheeler
    Mason Wheeler:
    progree:
    Kuba:
    BlackBart:
    frits:
    Was this C++? I would have looked for uninitialized variables before even contacting the customer. I also would have looked for stack overflows and buffer overruns. C and/or C++ is the devil's playground in most developers hands, idle or not.

    Clearly this wasn't C or C++. C and C++ are not advanced enough to be configured to generate a dump file without a lot of work or adding a dump routine - which Vince would surely have disallowed as being too likely to catch a virus.

    I think TRWTF is that C/C++ compilers can be at best expected to produce warnings about that. There should be a way to force a C/C++ compiler to simply initialize everything. It should only be disabled on the little (if any) code where benchmarks show significant and useful speed gains.

    I respectfully disagree - c is not intended to be safe; it is intended to be a convenient step above assembly language. There are many instances where it just isn't necessary to initialize areas of data. Unsafe, yes. Necessary, no.

    I must respectfully disagree. C was created with the explicit purpose of OS programming, specifically, to write UNIX in. OSes need to be secure, and C fails miserably at that. We've known that since 1989, and consistently ignored it for just as long.

    Considering the amount of damage that's been done in the last 22 years due to buffer overruns and similar C flaws, shouldn't writing any network facing software (OSes, browsers, Internet tools of all kinds) in C or derivatives (C++, Objective-C, etc) be considered an act of criminal negligence by now?

    what the hell would you have written it in?

  • Herby (unregistered)

    Another idea:

    But Vince, I have the latest virus scanner and I know it is quite functional.

    Of course, it might be instructive to have someone who actually NEEDS to fax an important document call up Vince and say "Your fax machine is always busy, I'll take my business to..."

    Another alternative is to have the fax machine right outside Vince's office, and his AA (secretary) be the one who loads it with paper "But Vince I've got to load the fax machine!".

    Next would be the purchase order for the ink cartridges needed to complete the task.

    There ARE ways to convince Vince, some not so subtle. I'm sure that others will add to the list.

  • (cs) in reply to Mason Wheeler
    Mason Wheeler:
    I must respectfully disagree. C was created with the explicit purpose of OS programming, specifically, to write UNIX in. OSes need to be secure, and C fails miserably at that. We've known that since 1989, and consistently ignored it for just as long.
    Operating systems need to be fast and efficient more than they need to be secure (only slightly more, but more nonetheless). C is perfectly capable of yielding secure code, but it puts the onus for this on the programmer, rather than inflicting the overhead of nannying every memory access.
  • Lucent (unregistered) in reply to the real trtrwtf
    the real trtrwtf:
    Trouble is, I'm a Phil Ochs leftist calling you that...
    You identify your ideology by the name of an entertainer.

    No surprise here.

  • Derp (unregistered) in reply to frits

    This is a desktop or server app, not hosted by the vendor... and unless they had a built in error reporting system (which they obviously didn't)... they'd have nowhere to start from.

    Because analyzing a potentially massive codebase for a single uninitialized variable, stack overflow, etc without any direction is like searching for a particular electron at a particular state somewhere in the universe.

    Sure... you 'could' find it... but chances are you won't no matter how long you search.

  • (cs) in reply to Herby
    Herby:
    There ARE ways to convince Vince, some not so subtle. I'm sure that others will add to the list.
    A clue-by-four?
  • (cs)
    The problem was an unitialized variable.
    Of course, the interns probably introduced some errors into the faxed copy, too.

    For instance, maybe they changed "uninitialized" to "unitialized."

  • Jay (unregistered) in reply to Mason Wheeler
    Mason Wheeler:
    the real trtrwtf:
    You're a liberal, aren't you?

    A lot of conservatives like to call me that. Then again, a lot of liberals these days think I'm a far-right extremist. Seems to me that means I'm exactly where I should be. :P

    Confused and indecisive?

    I've never understood why some people consider it a virtue to be a "moderate". I mean, I can certainly understand someone saying, "Of all the possible positions on this question, I believe mine to be the correct one." But when they say, "I am obviously right because both the pro- people and the anti- people all say that I'm wrong" ... umm, why does that prove anything? If one person says that the world is flat and another says that it is a sphere, it is not at all obvious to me that this proves that the correct answer is that it must be a hemisphere or some other shape that could be considered "between" the two extremes.

    Or to take a real political example: During the Lincoln-Douglas debates, Senator Douglas took the moderate position that slavery should be completely banned nor that it should be imposed on all the states, but rather that each state should be allowed to decide for itself whether or not to have slavery. He was right in the middle.

  • Jay (unregistered)

    At the risk of taking Vince's concerns seriously: Why did he think that printing it out and typing it back in would prevent a virus? If the original file contained a virus, then printing it out and typing it back in would result in a file that contained a virus.

    You know, I think if I was ever asked to print out a file and fax it under such circumstances, I'd be greatly tempted to put a virus in it before printing it just for fun. Well, that wouldn't work in this case as I presume they were not going to execute a dump file. Which gets back to the original silliness of the concern.

    Hmm, if Vince actually thought that printing it out and typing it back in would somehow purge any viruses, someone should have suggested running it to a print file and then reading the print file back in. I wonder if he would have bought that idea? Well, probably not.

  • (cs) in reply to Jupiter
    Jupiter:
    Mason Wheeler:
    progree:

    I respectfully disagree - c is not intended to be safe; it is intended to be a convenient step above assembly language. There are many instances where it just isn't necessary to initialize areas of data. Unsafe, yes. Necessary, no.

    I must respectfully disagree. C was created with the explicit purpose of OS programming, specifically, to write UNIX in. OSes need to be secure, and C fails miserably at that. We've known that since 1989, and consistently ignored it for just as long.

    Considering the amount of damage that's been done in the last 22 years due to buffer overruns and similar C flaws, shouldn't writing any network facing software (OSes, browsers, Internet tools of all kinds) in C or derivatives (C++, Objective-C, etc) be considered an act of criminal negligence by now?

    what the hell would you have written it in?

    Haskell?

  • (cs) in reply to Jupiter
    Jupiter:
    Mason Wheeler:
    progree:
    Kuba:
    BlackBart:
    frits:
    Was this C++? I would have looked for uninitialized variables before even contacting the customer. I also would have looked for stack overflows and buffer overruns. C and/or C++ is the devil's playground in most developers hands, idle or not.

    Clearly this wasn't C or C++. C and C++ are not advanced enough to be configured to generate a dump file without a lot of work or adding a dump routine - which Vince would surely have disallowed as being too likely to catch a virus.

    I think TRWTF is that C/C++ compilers can be at best expected to produce warnings about that. There should be a way to force a C/C++ compiler to simply initialize everything. It should only be disabled on the little (if any) code where benchmarks show significant and useful speed gains.

    I respectfully disagree - c is not intended to be safe; it is intended to be a convenient step above assembly language. There are many instances where it just isn't necessary to initialize areas of data. Unsafe, yes. Necessary, no.

    I must respectfully disagree. C was created with the explicit purpose of OS programming, specifically, to write UNIX in. OSes need to be secure, and C fails miserably at that. We've known that since 1989, and consistently ignored it for just as long.

    Considering the amount of damage that's been done in the last 22 years due to buffer overruns and similar C flaws, shouldn't writing any network facing software (OSes, browsers, Internet tools of all kinds) in C or derivatives (C++, Objective-C, etc) be considered an act of criminal negligence by now?

    what the hell would you have written it in?

    FORTRAN of course. No fucking brainer like usual on this fucking site.

  • Jay (unregistered)

    I'm reminded of when management at a place where I used to work issued a memo sternly warning that employees were not permitted to upload photos of their family, pets, or whatever to use for wallpaper, because JPEG files brought in from home might contain a virus.

  • (cs) in reply to Zylon
    Zylon:
    piskvorr:
    UNICORNS, not ponies. Those are absolutely NOT interchangeable

    Dead right. Unicorns are dick-head ponies.

  • gizmore (unregistered)

    Could this be a virus too?

    seventy-two onehundredone onehundredfourteen onehundredone thirty-two onehundred-twentyone onehundredeleven onehundredseventeen thirty-two ninety-seven onehundredfourteen onehundredone thirty-three

    Captcha: haero .... erm yes :)

  • (cs) in reply to Matt Westwood
    Matt Westwood:
    Zylon:
    piskvorr:
    UNICORNS, not ponies. Those are absolutely NOT interchangeable
    Dead right. Unicorns are dick-head ponies.
    They're a little gamey, buy they make great sausages... Kind of like venison, but more magical.
  • Anketam (unregistered) in reply to i </3 ipods
    i </3 ipods:</strong>
    C-Octothorpe:
    Beat:
    there are only tree correct solutions to that

    a) resign b) resign c) Ignore the idiot and use mail d)Bitch slap Vince and tell him to go make some gantt charts while you do your job

    FTFM
    A slap to the face, that's all? I'd curl up the previous night with a copy of 120 Days of Sodom to get some ideas first. Not just a slap to the face. You're not going to make him into a good boy with just a slap to the face.

    Unless the slaps are interspersed between some more Deliverance-esque treatment.

    I viewed the options as: a) resign - Might still have a reason to stay despite horrible boss (like a seemingly intelligent customer) b) resort to work place violence (like slapping him) c) involve boss' boss - who probably is just as much of an idiot after all they hired Vince d) do it the correct way and tell your boss you did it as per their procedure - I personally love this option when dealing with scripts I make.

    If I was in this case I would have gone with option d.

    And as always: remember when a boss asks you to do something stupid or unethical always get it in writing. So when it comes out you can point to the email or chat log and take out your boss and reap some sense of retribution at their demise. <insert evil laughter>
  • i </3 ipods (unregistered) in reply to Anketam
    Anketam:
    i </3 ipods:</strong>
    C-Octothorpe:
    Beat:
    there are only tree correct solutions to that

    a) resign b) resign c) Ignore the idiot and use mail d)Bitch slap Vince and tell him to go make some gantt charts while you do your job

    FTFM
    A slap to the face, that's all? I'd curl up the previous night with a copy of 120 Days of Sodom to get some ideas first. Not just a slap to the face. You're not going to make him into a good boy with just a slap to the face.

    Unless the slaps are interspersed between some more Deliverance-esque treatment.

    I viewed the options as: a) resign - Might still have a reason to stay despite horrible boss (like a seemingly intelligent customer) b) resort to work place violence (like slapping him) c) involve boss' boss - who probably is just as much of an idiot after all they hired Vince d) do it the correct way and tell your boss you did it as per their procedure - I personally love this option when dealing with scripts I make.

    If I was in this case I would have gone with option d.

    And as always: remember when a boss asks you to do something stupid or unethical always get it in writing. So when it comes out you can point to the email or chat log and take out your boss and reap some sense of retribution at their demise. <insert evil laughter>

    Torture Porn Fantasy >>> Political Revenge
  • the real trtrwtf (unregistered) in reply to Lucent
    Lucent:
    the real trtrwtf:
    Trouble is, I'm a Phil Ochs leftist calling you that...
    You identify your ideology by the name of an entertainer.

    Makes about as much sense as identifying your ideology by a relative direction, or by a mildly kinky sexual practice, I guess.

    The reference was actually to his great line about liberals - "ten degrees to the left of center in the best of times, ten degrees to the right of center when it affects them personally" - which still holds true decades later.

  • i </3 ipods (unregistered) in reply to C-Octothorpe
    C-Octothorpe:
    Matt Westwood:
    Zylon:
    piskvorr:
    UNICORNS, not ponies. Those are absolutely NOT interchangeable
    Dead right. Unicorns are dick-head ponies.
    They're a little gamey, buy they have great sausages... Kind of like venison, but more magical.
    Fixed.

    Unicorns ftw, btw. How many species do you know that can finger-cuff you all by himself?

    captcha: ingenium - Jove was ingenium when he invented his Parallel Multi-Mode Fucking Machine.

  • the real trtrwtf (unregistered) in reply to Jay
    Jay:
    Mason Wheeler:
    the real trtrwtf:
    You're a liberal, aren't you?

    A lot of conservatives like to call me that. Then again, a lot of liberals these days think I'm a far-right extremist. Seems to me that means I'm exactly where I should be. :P

    Confused and indecisive?

    I've never understood why some people consider it a virtue to be a "moderate". I mean, I can certainly understand someone saying, "Of all the possible positions on this question, I believe mine to be the correct one." But when they say, "I am obviously right because both the pro- people and the anti- people all say that I'm wrong" ... umm, why does that prove anything? If one person says that the world is flat and another says that it is a sphere, it is not at all obvious to me that this proves that the correct answer is that it must be a hemisphere or some other shape that could be considered "between" the two extremes.

    Or to take a real political example: During the Lincoln-Douglas debates, Senator Douglas took the moderate position that slavery should be completely banned nor that it should be imposed on all the states, but rather that each state should be allowed to decide for itself whether or not to have slavery. He was right in the middle.

    And he was obviously wrong, but we'd say that any position allowing slavery would be wrong. On slavery, extremism is the correct position. On free speech, I take an extremist position, and I think it's correct.

    However, I don't think that the extreme is always or even usually or even often the correct place to locate yourself; therefore Mason's position is probably most often the right one, despite my cracks about liberals.

  • pa (unregistered)

    up up down down left right left right B A

    Captcha: No, me "iusto"

  • (cs) in reply to Anketam
    Anketam:
    And as always: remember when a boss asks you to do something stupid or unethical always get it in writing. So when it comes out you can point to the email or chat log and take out your boss and reap some sense of retribution at their demise. <insert evil laughter>
    All the memo-to-notes, email trails, etc. are nice, but mostly look good in theory. I say that because your bosses boss likely doesn't know you nor does he give a shit what you think. All he knows is that your boss is the guy he has been golfing with for the past six years and he trusts his opinion (unless it's a monumental WTF, time after time).

    I've seen this first-hand a few times, and every time your bosses boss looks at you and you boss like a parent witnessing their kids arguing in a resteraunt: they're embarrased you're doing it and just want both of you to shut the fuck up.

    But this isn't absolute and is an unfortunate reality. I do agree however, that trying to CYA is probably the safest way to go.

  • (cs) in reply to C-Octothorpe
    C-Octothorpe:
    Matt Westwood:
    Zylon:
    piskvorr:
    UNICORNS, not ponies. Those are absolutely NOT interchangeable
    Dead right. Unicorns are dick-head ponies.
    They're a little gamey, buy they make great sausages... Kind of like venison, but more magical.
    Good call. The purple ones are hallucinogenic, mind.
  • I. G. E. (unregistered) in reply to PedanticCurmudgeon
    PedanticCurmudgeon:
    Jupiter:
    Mason Wheeler:
    I must respectfully disagree. C was created with the explicit purpose of OS programming, specifically, to write UNIX in.

    what the hell would you have written it in?

    Haskell?
    That would've been quite a feat. Not only because UNIX is almost twenty years older than Haskell, also it's fairly nontrivial to get Haskell to run on bare metal.

  • the real trtrwtf (unregistered) in reply to C-Octothorpe
    C-Octothorpe:
    Anketam:
    And as always: remember when a boss asks you to do something stupid or unethical always get it in writing. So when it comes out you can point to the email or chat log and take out your boss and reap some sense of retribution at their demise. <insert evil laughter>
    All the memo-to-notes, email trails, etc. are nice, but mostly look good in theory. I say that because your bosses boss likely doesn't know you nor does he give a shit what you think. All he knows is that your boss is the guy he has been golfing with for the past six years and he trusts his opinion (unless it's a monumental WTF, time after time).

    I've seen this first-hand a few times, and every time your bosses boss looks at you and you boss like a parent witnessing their kids arguing in a resteraunt: they're embarrased you're doing it and just want both of you to shut the fuck up.

    But this isn't absolute and is an unfortunate reality. I do agree however, that trying to CYA is probably the safest way to go.

    You know, I hadn't really thought about it, but yeah, I think this is right. I generally do pretty well at avoiding this sort of situation, so I've never been in a position where I'd be tempted to pull out a wad of paperwork, but I think for the most part a situation like this is usually going to be resolved by replacing the most junior person in the conflict, not by figuring out who's right. It's just easier. Even if it leaves long-term problems in place (like the subordinate's immediate boss, for one) it's still easier in the short term to make someone else hire a new subordinate and get them trained up than to hire a new person yourself. This might be an ancillary clause to the Peter Principle.

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