• (cs) in reply to UMTopSpinC7
    UMTopSpinC7:

    A Businessman:
    Anonymous:
    Anonymous:
    Anonymous:

    I've learned the hard way about bad-mouthing a former employer... even if they have a permanent case of cranial-rectal inversion, its still better to mention the good things and not go into detail about why they suck so hard.

    I'm always weary of the "why did you left your previous job" question myself. You've got to be frank and give a compelling reason as to why you left your job, yet this very reason might hurt your chance to get the new job.

    For instance, even if you had perfectly good reason to dislike someone in your last job, saying so might make them think that you don't get along well with people.

    If you say "their codebase was a giant WTF", they may think that you're too intolerant of things being done in a different way than yours. Also, they might be unsure that you won't get pissed off by their own codebase, since codebase are always more or less WTF-ish.

     That is one of those interview questions that you should have a rehearsed BS response too. Even if you're thinking "OMG, WTF, what a bunch of morons they were."

    How about this one: "Due to budgetary constraints, my current project is being put on hold indefinitely, and there does not appear to be enough work to keep all of us busy. While the company has not made any moves toward layoffs, I prefer to be productive, and am proactively looking for a challenge. I understand the project for which I'm interviewing is a substantial effort - can you shed some light on it?"

    It's pure BS, but applies to just about any IT project on the planet, and get's past the question.


    That is pretty good. What about, "What is your biggest weakness". Another one that's pretty tough.

    In my case, this happens to be true (at least in some aspects of my job): "My biggest weakness is that I tend to work faster than most, and have to keep reminding myself that not everyone is as fast as I am"

  • b0red (unregistered) in reply to GrandmasterB

    GrandmasterB:
    If you're hiring a salesperson or fashion model, yeah, sure, they need to show they can dress up to meet with customers and otherwise impress folks.  But whether a programmer has a nice suit has little to do with how well he can design a system.

    I disagree. The "dress test" is a good way to see if the programmer has the ability to go out of his world of programming and into other domains. Come on people, a suit is pretty easy: go to your local department store, shell out a few hundred bucks, and get a nice taylored look.

    If a programmer can't figure that out (sneakers, tight-fitting), then how can he be expected to solve real-world problems using anything but code? Sometimes a real-world problem can be solved with a 15-minute-to-create spreadsheet; not everything needs a 500-hour automation system. The "suits are too complicated for me" type of coders don't get that and need to be constantly baby-sat.

    That said, knowing how to dress for an interview also requires common sense. Take this job for example: http://jobs.thedailywtf.com/1001/listing.aspx?JobId=1000185. I think you'd look pretty foolish interviewing in a suit over there.

  • (cs) in reply to oGMo
    Anonymous:
    This certainly put me off.  I wouldn't want to work for a company whose VP of Tech judged candidates based on how well their suit fit or whether they wear sneakers.


    While I agree about the suit, wearing sneakers with a suit is just bad. If you're going to wear a suit, don't stop at your feet.
  • Anon (unregistered) in reply to Puma
    Anonymous:

     You can still look good in sneakers. One of my common interview outfits is a $100 pair of jeans that are a tad tore up, sneakers, and a nice brightly colored dress shirt (the bright color makes you memorable) with a blazer over it. It's fasionable, comfortable (which is important), and unique.

     You spend $100 on jeans? WTF!
     

  • Josh (unregistered) in reply to GrandmasterB
    GrandmasterB:

    Anonymous:
    Grow up, people care how you look.  If an interview isn't important enough to you to dress up a little bit then how is the company's software project going to be important enough for you to work hard on it?

    I think you need to do some growing up yourself if you think your statement has any logic to it.

    If you're hiring a salesperson or fashion model, yeah, sure, they need to show they can dress up to meet with customers and otherwise impress folks.  But whether a programmer has a nice suit has little to do with how well he can design a system.

     

    But is does have to do with how well they can WRITE a system. There is more to programming than simply designing the system - you have to write CLEAR code that others can READ.  If you don't care enough to wear a suit to an interview, you probably don't care enough to follow coding conventions.  You probably also don't care enough to comment your code.  They might still be brilliant, but I'd rather work with a solid coder.
  • (cs) in reply to GrandmasterB
    GrandmasterB:

    Anonymous:
    Grow up, people care how you look.  If an interview isn't important enough to you to dress up a little bit then how is the company's software project going to be important enough for you to work hard on it?

    ...

    If you're hiring a salesperson or fashion model, yeah, sure, they need to show they can dress up to meet with customers and otherwise impress folks.  But whether a programmer has a nice suit has little to do with how well he can design a system.

     

    I can appreciate both of the above sentiments. I have heard that you should dress just a little better than the standard day-to-day attire of the people who work there. If they wear jeans, t-shirts, and sneakers you should wear a polo shirt, slacks, and loafers (or casual shoe). If they wear slacks and polos, you go with button-up shirt, and maybe a tie and sport jacket. If they wear a tie, have as nice a suit as you can afford.

    Dressing appropriately is a sign of respect and earnestness. Just trying should be enough.

    As for ability vs. appearance, there are extremes. I've known programmers with good personalities (well, for geeks) that I could not work with all day, just because of the smell. Literally. 

  • (cs) in reply to Anon
    UMTopSpinC7:

    That is pretty good. What about, "What is your biggest weakness". Another one that's pretty tough.

     Guaranteed winning answers:

    "Kryptonite."

    "My crippling and debilitating fear of clowns and spiders."
  • Jeff (unregistered)

    We posted an ad some time back looking for a desktop support/Jr. Network admin type person. In our ad, we asked for a candidate familiar with windows and windows networking. Basically we're looking for someone who can explain what their cable modem router does and troubleshoot simple problems hooking PCs up to a network.

    One resume stood out from the rest, from the college graduation date it was obvious the candidate was a young guy. Even still, he claimed to have expert level knowledge about virtually every bulletpoint in our ad. But this took the cake: "As for windows and windows networking, I feel I know all there is to know."

    Needless to say, I was overjoyed, because there are a couple questions I wanted to have answered. Sadly, I was voted down, and this bright young star recieved a stock 'thank you for applying' letter.

     

  • Fuming (unregistered) in reply to R.Flowers
    R.Flowers:
    GrandmasterB:

    Anonymous:
    Grow up, people care how you look.  If an interview isn't important enough to you to dress up a little bit then how is the company's software project going to be important enough for you to work hard on it?

    ...

    If you're hiring a salesperson or fashion model, yeah, sure, they need to show they can dress up to meet with customers and otherwise impress folks.  But whether a programmer has a nice suit has little to do with how well he can design a system.

     

    I can appreciate both of the above sentiments. I have heard that you should dress just a little better than the standard day-to-day attire of the people who work there. If they wear jeans, t-shirts, and sneakers you should wear a polo shirt, slacks, and loafers (or casual shoe). If they wear slacks and polos, you go with button-up shirt, and maybe a tie and sport jacket. If they wear a tie, have as nice a suit as you can afford.

    Dressing appropriately is a sign of respect and earnestness. Just trying should be enough.

    As for ability vs. appearance, there are extremes. I've known programmers with good personalities (well, for geeks) that I could not work with all day, just because of the smell. Literally. 

    I personally bathe twice daily because I work in close proximity to someone who believes that perfume should be purchased by the gallon, and applied with a power sprayer. Just my luck - I finally get a nice office with actual walls and a door, and they put an animal in the cage with me (sighs)

  • Sam (unregistered)

    I'm amused by all the "You wouldn't have hired the guy in the bad suit?  OMG you suck!" comments.

    Read the description again.  The way the guy was dressed was a bit odd, but that isn't the reason that they bailed on him.  He essentially ignored a polite request and decided to do whatever it was he wanted.  He showed no sense of propriety, walking into and poking around someone else's office without an invitation.  Overall, in the space of a few minutes, he managed to exhibit a stunning lack of common sense.  I don't want someone who will take that same amazing lack of common sense and apply it to my code, my build system, my servers, or my company's customers.

     

     

  • (cs) in reply to Jnx
    Anonymous:

    I don't think it's so weird that someone would have lot of things to say about their old company. Not after reading this site about how bad things really can be. I can't see why that would make him go nuts in other situations, assuming that the workplace he was interviewing for wasn't a major WTF in itself.

    Perhaps his gripes were legitimate. However, a person old enough to have graduated from college should have enough maturity to know when and where such griping is appropriate, and enough self-control to enact that knowledge. This candidate was lacking in one or both.

     

  • (cs) in reply to RogerC
    RogerC:
    Anonymous:

    I don't think it's so weird that someone would have lot of things to say about their old company. Not after reading this site about how bad things really can be. I can't see why that would make him go nuts in other situations, assuming that the workplace he was interviewing for wasn't a major WTF in itself.

    Perhaps his gripes were legitimate. However, a person old enough to have graduated from college should have enough maturity to know when and where such griping is appropriate, and enough self-control to enact that knowledge. This candidate was lacking in one or both.

    Indeed. "Knock 'Em Dead" should be considered mandatory reading for anyone looking for work. It covers how to deal with questions like this that leave a good impression.

    The last place I interviewed for didn't care why I was leaving.
     

  • (cs) in reply to Anon
    Anonymous:
    Some 30-something MetroSexual:

     You can still look good in sneakers. One of my common interview outfits is a $100 pair of jeans that are a tad tore up, sneakers, and a nice brightly colored dress shirt (the bright color makes you memorable) with a blazer over it. It's fasionable, comfortable (which is important), and unique.

     You spend $100 on jeans? WTF!
     

    Yeah, no kidding.

    I get my jeans at Costco. $15 / pair for blue, $20 / pair for black. They fit well, they're made in Canada (yes, that's right, NOT in China!), and they're not covered with paint. (WTF is up with that?)

    People spend too much on stuff like that. An ad on the radio the other day said, "Guys, you can get a haircut, style, shampoo all for just $85."

    It's a good thing I was stopped at the light or I might have crashed the car. 

  • (cs) in reply to Nina
    Anonymous:
    My response was, "I wanted to try being a full-time mother, and learned that I suck at being a mother and I'd much rather be a programmer".

    So you, uh, gave the kid back? Ate it? What?

    sincerely, Richard Nixon

  • (cs) in reply to Sam
    Anonymous:

    I'm amused by all the "You wouldn't have hired the guy in the bad suit?  OMG you suck!" comments.

    Read the description again.  The way the guy was dressed was a bit odd, but that isn't the reason that they bailed on him.  He essentially ignored a polite request and decided to do whatever it was he wanted.  He showed no sense of propriety, walking into and poking around someone else's office without an invitation.  Overall, in the space of a few minutes, he managed to exhibit a stunning lack of common sense.  I don't want someone who will take that same amazing lack of common sense and apply it to my code, my build system, my servers, or my company's customers.

     

     

    If the clothes didn't influence the decision, why was it mentioned?

    Why don't you read the description again?

    sincerely, Richard Nixon

  • Paul Robinson (vagueware.com) (unregistered)

    I once worked for a major national ISP in the UK as a senior engineer, and despite being only 20 years old, was quite senior in the engineering team. I was roped in to interview for a new engineer, and reluctantly agreed.

    One of my standard questions - because ISP is such a weird little sector to work in, or was then - was "if you were given a big pile of cash, and asked to build an ISP capable of X million users from day one, what would you go out and buy and why?". Most people flunked this: they just didn't know what a data center needed, and I was looking for answers along the lines of "BGP4 router, you're going to need a way of terminating your SDH, you're going to want a few RADIUS servers, etc."

    The best candidate did know all that. He got it almost perfect, but at the end when he finished I asked him if he'd left anything out. He thought for a moment, and said "nope". He'd designed the world's most beautiful dial-in intranet with absolutely no external connectivity. Modem racks, servers, you name it, but not even a single megabit of bandwidth - he'd remembered the BGP4 router, but forgot he might need to connect it to something.

    I forgave it as nervousness and made a suggestion we hire him, because he at least knew what a modem rack was. Alas, I was over-ruled by senior management and they hired some guys who didn't even know what the Internet was. Classy move.

  • (cs)

    Interview stories are fun.

    At least for me, as I always struggle with the non-technical part (I feel tense when I have to talk to people I've never met before, especially when I know it's some kind of test).

    As for the technical part, I once ended up screaming with the interviewer (we've had a little argument about the possibility of field declarations in a Java interface), then I grabbed a keyboard, looked up the part proving me in the JLS and finished with "I wouldn't work in this cesspool even if you payed twice the money I need" and walked out.

    Obviously I feel a bit embarrassed about it now but I think apart from the touchy-feely issues I've done the right thing.
     

  • (cs) in reply to Josh
    Anonymous:
    But is does have to do with how well they can WRITE a system. There is more to programming than simply designing the system - you have to write CLEAR code that others can READ.  If you don't care enough to wear a suit to an interview, you probably don't care enough to follow coding conventions.  You probably also don't care enough to comment your code.  They might still be brilliant, but I'd rather work with a solid coder.

    Oh that's probably the dumbest thing posted in this thread so far.

    Let's apply your logic to some other things: If someone doesn't care enough to take the trash out when it's full, they probably don't care enough to put their child in a car seat. If someone doesn't care enough to hold the door for someone, they probably don't care enough to call 911 when someone is having a heart attack.

    Here's a newsflash anonymous swine, people place different value on different things. Just because someone cares about one thing does not mean they have that same level of care for everything else.

    sincerely,

    Richard Nixon

  • Krakerjack (unregistered)

    Wow i'm actually shocked to see that people believe their appearance doesn't matter during an interview.

    I don't necessarily think a suit is required.  Nice pants, a button shirt, perhaps a tie, polished shoes are an absolute must.  Sure if you have a PH.D from MIT or you helped develop TCP/IP who cares what you look like, but come on people grow up.  The whole trick is to give them the least amount of reasons to dislike you.

    If you showed up to an interview in Jeans, you honestly look like an idiot.  Sort of like people who show up at a funeral in jeans, or to a wedding in jeans. 


     

  • (cs) in reply to OldSunGuy
    Anonymous:

    I don't know if anyone else feels this way, but I always read these postings with some trepidation that I might recognize myself as the interviewee.  Only after reading through the whole thing I can say to myself, "I don't think that ever happened to me..."

     It's the same with the code snippets being held up for ridicule.  "I hope that's not something I wrote..."

     

    Why? I know I sometimes write code that can easily appear here.

    if( this == null ) return ERROR; //the downside of search-replace refactoring


    I'm not proud of it, but things like this do happen. You just have to try to avoid them and the only way to achieve this is by reading your code again and again. Possibly once again a couple of days later.
     

  • (cs) in reply to Nina

    Anonymous:
    My response was, "I wanted to try being a full-time mother, and learned that I suck at being a mother and I'd much rather be a programmer".

    (Interviewer thinks:  And how did you dispose of your children?  Is about to ask, but doesn't.  A long, uncomfortable silence ensues.)

     

  • (cs) in reply to b0red
    Anonymous:

    GrandmasterB:
    If you're hiring a salesperson or fashion model, yeah, sure, they need to show they can dress up to meet with customers and otherwise impress folks.  But whether a programmer has a nice suit has little to do with how well he can design a system.

    I disagree. The "dress test" is a good way to see if the programmer has the ability to go out of his world of programming and into other domains. Come on people, a suit is pretty easy: go to your local department store, shell out a few hundred bucks, and get a nice taylored look.

    If a programmer can't figure that out (sneakers, tight-fitting), then how can he be expected to solve real-world problems using anything but code? Sometimes a real-world problem can be solved with a 15-minute-to-create spreadsheet; not everything needs a 500-hour automation system. The "suits are too complicated for me" type of coders don't get that and need to be constantly baby-sat.

    That said, knowing how to dress for an interview also requires common sense. Take this job for example: http://jobs.thedailywtf.com/1001/listing.aspx?JobId=1000185. I think you'd look pretty foolish interviewing in a suit over there.

    Or this one: http://jobs.thedailywtf.com/1001/listing.aspx?JobId=1000184

    <font face="Verdana">We</font>
    <font face="Verdana">...are the creative agency you didn't know existed in St. Louis</font>
    <font face="Verdana">...do not ask you to work with stupid people</font>
    <font face="Verdana">...eat lunch at every restaurant Downtown</font>
    <font face="Verdana">...will send you home if you wear a tie to the interview</font>
  • (cs) in reply to Guy
    Anonymous:
    Anonymous:
    His suit didn't fit well (at least he had one) and he wore sneakers. Normally this would put me off, but he was a young guy so I looked past it.

    This certainly put me off.  I wouldn't want to work for a company whose VP of Tech judged candidates based on how well their suit fit or whether they wear sneakers.

     

    Grow up, people care how you look.  If an interview isn't important enough to you to dress up a little bit then how is the company's software project going to be important enough for you to work hard on it?

    On the other hand you might argue that wearing a suit for an interview is the same as lying during an interview. I choose casual clothes, usually plain black jeans and t-shirt because that's what I wear all the time. Plus if you're not used to wearing suit you'll look very silly.

    But then I'm not really good in interviewing. 

  • (cs) in reply to Zlodo
    Anonymous:
    Anonymous:

    I've learned the hard way about bad-mouthing a former employer... even if they have a permanent case of cranial-rectal inversion, its still better to mention the good things and not go into detail about why they suck so hard.

    I'm always weary of the "why did you left your previous job" question myself. You've got to be frank and give a compelling reason as to why you left your job, yet this very reason might hurt your chance to get the new job.


    So far, I haven't had to BS that question.  For the last three jobs I've had, the correct answers were "project was finished", "project was finished", and "I finished my Bachelor's degree and wanted to pursue a career in my field of education".

    (On that last one, I'm glad I left when I did.  Another year, and the answer would have been "Company went bankrupt")
  • Ayende Rahien (unregistered) in reply to biziclop
    biziclop:

    if( this == null ) return ERROR; //the downside of search-replace refactoring

     Um, why??

    I don't like the ERROR part, since it usually means a global variable, but there are valid reasons to do this.   

    This code is probably C++, where it is certainly possible to get to this point. I have written such code (that tests for this == null) to handle NullObject pattern.

     

  • (cs) in reply to Josh
    Anonymous:
    GrandmasterB:

    Anonymous:
    Grow up, people care how you look.  If an interview isn't important enough to you to dress up a little bit then how is the company's software project going to be important enough for you to work hard on it?

    I think you need to do some growing up yourself if you think your statement has any logic to it.

    If you're hiring a salesperson or fashion model, yeah, sure, they need to show they can dress up to meet with customers and otherwise impress folks.  But whether a programmer has a nice suit has little to do with how well he can design a system.

     

    But is does have to do with how well they can WRITE a system. There is more to programming than simply designing the system - you have to write CLEAR code that others can READ.  If you don't care enough to wear a suit to an interview, you probably don't care enough to follow coding conventions.  You probably also don't care enough to comment your code.  They might still be brilliant, but I'd rather work with a solid coder.

    But again, you're falling into the same trap... you have absolutely NO basis for that claim.  You might 'feel' that to be the truth because thats what you've been told all these years... and thats fine... just dont try to pass it off as some sort of fact. 

    I could just as easily say that if someone is spending too much time making sure they're wearing stylish clothes and looking good, then they are obviously overly concerned with superficial trappings and are thus incapable of creating software that focuses on stability and functionality over a flashy interface. 

    imo, unless you are actually expecting the programmer to be out with clients and customers on some regular basis, worrying about the kinds of clothes they wear is pretty stupid - and probably a bad business decision at that.

     

     

  • Anonymous (unregistered) in reply to A Java Guy
    A Java Guy:
    UMTopSpinC7:

    That is pretty good. What about, "What is your biggest weakness". Another one that's pretty tough.

    In my case, this happens to be true (at least in some aspects of my job): "My biggest weakness is that I tend to work faster than most, and have to keep reminding myself that not everyone is as fast as I am"

     I wonder how well the answer "Interviewing" would go over.  In my case, of four jobs, I've been hired three times "with reservations."  Meaning that they weren't sure about me, but were willing to give me a shot.  In each case I have been given constant praise and significant raises and asked to stay on.  As a result, I think my interviewing skills suck.
     

    captcha:  "truthiness" how appropriate. 

  • (cs) in reply to Josh
    Anonymous:
    GrandmasterB:

    Anonymous:
    Grow up, people care how you look.  If an interview isn't important enough to you to dress up a little bit then how is the company's software project going to be important enough for you to work hard on it?

    I think you need to do some growing up yourself if you think your statement has any logic to it.

    If you're hiring a salesperson or fashion model, yeah, sure, they need to show they can dress up to meet with customers and otherwise impress folks.  But whether a programmer has a nice suit has little to do with how well he can design a system.

     

    But is does have to do with how well they can WRITE a system. There is more to programming than simply designing the system - you have to write CLEAR code that others can READ.  If you don't care enough to wear a suit to an interview, you probably don't care enough to follow coding conventions.  You probably also don't care enough to comment your code.  They might still be brilliant, but I'd rather work with a solid coder.

    Once again this is stupid. Some of the most obfuscated code I've seen comes from suit-and-tie coders. Just strip down the bells and whistles from your argument and you'll end up with: "If you don't wear a suit you can't write clear code." Repeat this sentence ten times aloud to your dog or in front of a mirror. Do you feel how ridiculous this sentence is?

    You assume that if you're wearing a suit you're being neat. Most of the time you will end up looking like a monkey in trousers and everyone will know that you wear that suit because you've learned you have to. You don't really care, you just follow the rules without hesitation.

    Anyway, what if you go to interviews before/after you go to work? 

  • SwordfishBob (unregistered) in reply to Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous:
    Anonymous:

    Grow up, people care how you look.  If an interview isn't important enough to you to dress up a little bit then how is the company's software project going to be important enough for you to work hard on it?

    This is always one of the arguments used, and it sucks. Importance in one area does not imply importance in another. Just because I don't want to dress up doesn't mean I don't want to write good code.


    .. then there's showing you're willing to make an effort, in things that mightn't seem so important to you but do matter to other people..
  • (cs) in reply to Krakerjack

    Anonymous:
    If you showed up to an interview in Jeans, you honestly look like an idiot.  Sort of like people who show up at a funeral in jeans, or to a wedding in jeans.  

    Until you get to the interview and realize you're the only one in the building wearing a suit.  At that point, you no longer look sharp ... you look like a complete newbie tool right out of college.  I prefer to go to an interview looking like the company needs to prove to me they are worth my talent. 

    But yes, one should always dress up for funerals and weddings!

     

     

     

  • (cs) in reply to Anonymous
    UMTopSpinC7:
    That is pretty good. What about, "What is your biggest weakness". Another one that's pretty tough.

    I think, from now on whenever that question is asked in an interview, I will later ask the interviewer 'whats the biggest weakness of this company's management?'

     

  • Zlodo (unregistered) in reply to UMTopSpinC7

    UMTopSpinC7:
    That is pretty good. What about, "What is your biggest weakness". Another one that's pretty tough.

    I have much less problems with this one, as the actual answers in my case has little potential to put off a potential employer, while not sounding too cocky or bullshit-ish: "I work too hard at first to prove myself and I tend to get burnt out too fast in the process" (I can turn from Asok into Dilbert and then into Wally so suddenly that it's a bit scary), "I say yes too easily", and "I tend to be over optimistic when estimating things".

     

    Anonymous:
    GrandmasterB:

    If you're hiring a salesperson or fashion model, yeah, sure, they need to show they can dress up to meet with customers and otherwise impress folks.  But whether a programmer has a nice suit has little to do with how well he can design a system.
     

    But is does have to do with how well they can WRITE a system. There is more to programming than simply designing the system - you have to write CLEAR code that others can READ.  If you don't care enough to wear a suit to an interview, you probably don't care enough to follow coding conventions.  You probably also don't care enough to comment your code.  They might still be brilliant, but I'd rather work with a solid coder.

    Those two things (dressing and designing/writing clean and commented code) are completly and utterly orthogonal.

    I know plenty of well dressed people who write shittiest and careless code.

    I know plenty of people poorly dressed or shaving once in a blue moon *cough*like me*cough* who care about clean and readable code above anything else (which is horribly frustrating when most of the other people in the team can't seem to give a shit and they just dump their code at the first remotely suitable place they can find)

  • (cs) in reply to Ayende Rahien
    Anonymous:
    biziclop:

    if( this == null ) return ERROR; //the downside of search-replace refactoring

     Um, why??

    I don't like the ERROR part, since it usually means a global variable, but there are valid reasons to do this.   

    This code is probably C++, where it is certainly possible to get to this point. I have written such code (that tests for this == null) to handle NullObject pattern.

     

    No, it's Java where "this" can't be null and ERROR is a constant so that part is perfectly okay.

    What happend was somebody had written a static utility method in class A and I decided to tidy up the codebase and refactored it as an instance method of class B (where it really belonged to). I replaced all the references to a parameter of class B with "this". "if( param == null )" is a perfectly sensible prerequisite check while "if( this == null )" is not.

  • (cs) in reply to Josh
    Anonymous:
    GrandmasterB:

    Anonymous:
    Grow up, people care how you look.  If an interview isn't important enough to you to dress up a little bit then how is the company's software project going to be important enough for you to work hard on it?

    I think you need to do some growing up yourself if you think your statement has any logic to it.

    If you're hiring a salesperson or fashion model, yeah, sure, they need to show they can dress up to meet with customers and otherwise impress folks.  But whether a programmer has a nice suit has little to do with how well he can design a system.

     

    But is does have to do with how well they can WRITE a system. There is more to programming than simply designing the system - you have to write CLEAR code that others can READ.  If you don't care enough to wear a suit to an interview, you probably don't care enough to follow coding conventions.  You probably also don't care enough to comment your code.  They might still be brilliant, but I'd rather work with a solid coder.

    This is quite simply a load of bull.  There is rarely, if ever, a correlation between appearance and skill.  The best Linux administrator I know goes to work sporting a mohawk.  The most brilliant programmer I've ever met is a gigantic dude who does consulting work in his pajamas from his own living room, and makes a six-figure income doing so.  Both of these guys are excellent communicators, and document their work well.  In my experience, the numbskulls were pretty evenly distributed among the well-dressed and the not-so-well-dressed crowds.  I'm sick to death of hearing/reading this argument.  Hell, it isn't even an argument, it's a baseless claim pulled right out of thin air.

    That said, I will not deny the fact that showing up to an interview in nice clothes is beneficial.  If you're trying to get a job, you're more often than not competing against other applicants, and any advantage you can get is well worth having.   Looking nice makes you memorable.  However, if you're on the other side of the interview table, the things that matter are the applicant's skills and his dedication to doing the job.  His appearance should be a second thought.  If he needs to give a presentation, tell him to wear a suit that day.  Otherwise, who really cares?

  • (cs) in reply to SwordfishBob

    Anonymous:

    .. then there's showing you're willing to make an effort, in things that mightn't seem so important to you but do matter to other people..

    But if someone interviews with me... he wouldnt be showing that since its not important at all to me.  Rather, he'd be showing me he's a tool who feels he has to dress up in order to make up for or distract from some perceived inadequacy in his technical skills.

     

  • (cs) in reply to GrandmasterB
    GrandmasterB:
    UMTopSpinC7:
    That is pretty good. What about, "What is your biggest weakness". Another one that's pretty tough.

    I think, from now on whenever that question is asked in an interview, I will later ask the interviewer 'whats the biggest weakness of this company's management?'

     

     I've had fair luck asking "What's the worst thing about working here?"
     

  • Anonymous (unregistered) in reply to GrandmasterB

    GrandmasterB:
    I prefer to go to an interview looking like the company needs to prove to me they are worth my talent.

    I would never, *ever* hire someone who came in with that attitude, no matter how good they were.  A person who is so convinced of their talent that they think the world should bow to them smacks of egoism of the highest order.  It's the exact same kind of person who doesn't keep up with new technology and methodology because they're convinced they already know everything. 

  • (cs) in reply to GrandmasterB

    Right.  But it has everything to do with not being able to make it past an interview...

  • (cs) in reply to John Bigboote
    John Bigboote:
    UMTopSpinC7:

    That is pretty good. What about, "What is your biggest weakness". Another one that's pretty tough.

    Guaranteed winning answer:

    "Kryptonite."

    OMG! That's the best answer-EVER!

  • (cs) in reply to John Bigboote
    John Bigboote:
    UMTopSpinC7:

    That is pretty good. What about, "What is your biggest weakness". Another one that's pretty tough.

    Guaranteed winning answer:

    "Kryptonite."

    OMG! That's the best answer-EVER!

  • (cs) in reply to Nina

    So, am I one of the only ones who actually takes the time to ask what the appropriate attire for the interview is? Most employers will be glad to tell you the standard company attire. If they say business casual though, ask for clarification as that has a very wide range. Also, even if it is the most laid back of all places and everyone works in the buff or pj's, I'd still at least wear khaki's and a collared shirt... That's my though from the interviewee side. From the interviewer side I wouldn't give a shit really unless they stank like a bag of old grass clippings that's been rained on and sitting out in the sun for a week. Of course, if they had a look on them that says "Say the wrong thing and the building goes boom", I would probably think twice...

  • Rob M (unregistered) in reply to GrandmasterB

    I've worked as a consultant, at a small company, and at a very large comapany before that.  In ever case I've been interviewed, and also been involved in giving interviews and making hiring decisions.  The way to know how to dress is very simple.  Call the office admin at the business, or ask the HR person.  Ask what the usual attire is for daily wear and what attire is common for interviews.  If everyone shows up in a suit for interviews, show up in a suit.  If the admin tells you that no one ever wears a tie, and "dress up" means long pants, then dress business casual.   If in doubt, dress up a little.   You can easily get away with beeing too formal in your clothing for an interview.  You will rarely recover from being too informal.  You can't lose by calling and asking.  It shows you are prepared and thinking ahead.

    Remember that the interview is as much about you deciding if you want to work for the company as it is about them deciding they want you.  Calling ahead to ask about dress code, finding out who you are likely to meet, and learning about the companiy's products or services ahead of time will improve your chances of getting hired and also tell you whether or not you want to be hired.   If you want to spend your days coding in ripped jeans and a Metallica t-shirt, don't apply at a company where you will be expected to wear a suit on a daily basis (like a financial company in New York).  If you hate pointy haired bosses and process, turn down an inteview if you find out that you will be talking to 15 people in sequence, each of whom is going to want dental records, employment history, shoe size, previous work experience and a pint of blood.

  • (cs) in reply to Zlodo
    Anonymous:

    UMTopSpinC7:
    That is pretty good. What about, "What is your biggest weakness". Another one that's pretty tough.

    I have much less problems with this one, as the actual answers in my case has little potential to put off a potential employer, while not sounding too cocky or bullshit-ish: "I work too hard at first to prove myself and I tend to get burnt out too fast in the process" (I can turn from Asok into Dilbert and then into Wally so suddenly that it's a bit scary), "I say yes too easily", and "I tend to be over optimistic when estimating things".

     

    Anonymous:
    GrandmasterB:

    If you're hiring a salesperson or fashion model, yeah, sure, they need to show they can dress up to meet with customers and otherwise impress folks.  But whether a programmer has a nice suit has little to do with how well he can design a system.
     

    But is does have to do with how well they can WRITE a system. There is more to programming than simply designing the system - you have to write CLEAR code that others can READ.  If you don't care enough to wear a suit to an interview, you probably don't care enough to follow coding conventions.  You probably also don't care enough to comment your code.  They might still be brilliant, but I'd rather work with a solid coder.

    Those two things (dressing and designing/writing clean and commented code) are completly and utterly orthogonal.

    I know plenty of well dressed people who write shittiest and careless code.

    I know plenty of people poorly dressed or shaving once in a blue moon *cough*like me*cough* who care about clean and readable code above anything else (which is horribly frustrating when most of the other people in the team can't seem to give a shit and they just dump their code at the first remotely suitable place they can find)

    This whole suit issue comes from industries/positions where your abilities can not be measured easily .Lacking real clues you try to make some rough estimates based on things you are able to perceive.It's not logical but it's human, this ability helped us in survival for thousands of years.It's the basis of empirical science. You try to set up rules all the time without even knowing. When they work, you call them heuristics.

    However, it's also the source of superstitions. Somebody sees a black then breaks a leg cat the other day. He tries to find some connection between his perceptions but miscues. We ridicule them, if this happens.

    But the abilities of a developer are quite easy to test on the spot. A ten minute test of the design and coding principles and a simple coding assignment of thirty minutes can do the trick.

    Still, our reflexes work. Even if it's not logical, I know  interviewers look at what I wear. It's only I don't want to work at any place where this seriously matters. If I would be absolutely qualified for a job but the lack of a suit prompted the interviewer not to hire me then it's probably a wtf job. (Yes, this is another illogical, superstition-like assumption from me but I know no better way to avoid absolute wtf jobs.)

  • (cs) in reply to Paul Robinson (vagueware.com)
    Anonymous:

    One of my standard questions - because ISP is such a weird little sector to work in, or was then - was "if you were given a big pile of cash, and asked to build an ISP capable of X million users from day one, what would you go out and buy and why?". Most people flunked this: they just didn't know what a data center needed, and I was looking for answers along the lines of "BGP4 router, you're going to need a way of terminating your SDH, you're going to want a few RADIUS servers, etc."


    The answer to that is quite easy: if you want an ISP capable of supporting X million users, the best thing to buy is an ISP that's already supporting about that many users.  If it's having cash-flow problems, you should be able to get it at a discount.
  • (cs) in reply to Anonymous
    Anonymous:

    GrandmasterB:
    I prefer to go to an interview looking like the company needs to prove to me they are worth my talent.

    I would never, *ever* hire someone who came in with that attitude, no matter how good they were.  A person who is so convinced of their talent that they think the world should bow to them smacks of egoism of the highest order.  It's the exact same kind of person who doesn't keep up with new technology and methodology because they're convinced they already know everything. 

    I prefer to look at it as a deal. The company wants to get something and I want to get something in return. If I don't feel it's worth for me, I call quits. If they don't feel so, they'll call quits. It's that simple. Once I was interviewing at a company that would have been good (and I would have been good for them) except for the fact I had had to travel 90 minutes and they wanted me to work from 8.30 in the morning. I told them honestly I can't manage it. They asked me what's the starting time I can manage. I said ten'o clock. They said they can't accept it. I said thank you for the opportunity and goodbye.

  • jfruh (unregistered)

    Longtime reader, first-time poster.  I'm pretty fascinated by the whole debate about dressing up for an interview.  The rule of thumb I think involves figuring out what the corporate culture is and trying to match it, maybe a little dressier.  The problem is, it can be hard to figure out what that's like before you arrive on site.


    One thing that I think people are missing about the interview that prompted this is the combo of suit and sneakers.  I think anyone who's not totally divorced from normal interactions with fellow humans knows that wearing sneakers with a suit is wildly inappropriate, fashion-wise.  If you're going to wear sneakers, you should just wear casual clothes.  It's not a matter of spending money -- you can get a pair of perfectly servicable dress shoes at the Salvation Army for less than $20 that will bear up under the casual scrutiny of a job interview for an IT job.  Wearing sneakers with a suit means that you either (a) are being deliberately eccentric in your dress -- which I'm all for, but I don't think a job interview is really the context for that, or (b) you're kind of crazy.

  • John Doe (unregistered)

    I thought I'd mention in case that somebody responsible of this site noticed, but the advert is clearly pornographic. Is there supposed to be pornographic adverts or not?

    I just think it's a bit weird to have a you know, clean site with just nerd stuff so I can browse it at work, but if there are pornographic images that I don't even notice until it is too late, like my boss showing behind my shoulder, well, I'd just hate that.

     

    - John

     

  • SnoodDude (unregistered) in reply to GrandmasterB

    The "Always weat a suit" crowd and the "WTF!?! looks don't matter" crowd are equally wrong.  You're both being _WAY_ too black and white about things.

    For the suit crowd-  I've personally watched two of you get turned down for six-figure positions from a bay area games engineering company... period.  Like _ALL_ choices of personal appearance- only three things matter- your audience, your audience and your audience.  Suits appeal to Manhatten financial software firms... wearing a suit to a casual bay area company (no matter how well known or successful) makes you come off as a cocky prick who thinks that the answer to all life's problems is in your appearance and not in your actual ability.

     Now, for the 'screw it, I go as me! shorts and sandals baby!'... At some point, you'll have to grow up and realize that "not being a tool" and "not being unappealing" are two very different things.  If you're a cocky, sandals and shorts type prick who acts like you're gods gift to programming... at some point, even a good company is going to decide that your personality will cause more detriment than any amount of god-given skills might benefit the company.  Period, end of story.

     The "slightly better than day to day wear" is a good bet...  What's day to day wear at the company you're looking for?  Take a moment out of your day of preening and find out... This goes without saying, doesn't it?  You should walk into any job interview knowing as much as you can about the company and what they do, right? (I mean, you're actively trying to decide if you want to work for these people too, right?  Not just vainly out begging to work for anyone who will give you a pay check?  Desperation = unappealing)  Spend a few hours researching their website, their press releases and their products, and you should have a pretty good idea of what type of people you're dealing with.

     The biggest "duh" on here was the "No" answer.  This is a personal pet peeve.

    Engineering is a VERY broad field.  When I'm interviewing, one of the first things I like to do is get the 'bounds' of the canidates knowledge and immediately push beyond them... why?  Well, frankly, an innovating engineer is _always_ working over his head- dealing with new technologies, new ways of doing things, etc.  I really don't care that much what a canidate actually knows at the moment he walks in the door (I mean, assuming he can cover the basics of software design  and system theory)... what I care about is when I ask him some obscure runtime optimization problem specific to mobile handsets that he's never had to think about before- how does he respond?  The only thing worse than simply saying "No" (being honest about being lazy) is bullshitting and being dead wrong.  The best answers are always... "Well, I'll be honest, I've never encountered that in particular, but based on XYZ (correct basic facts) I'm thinking perhaps ABC (an understandable, if not necessarily correct interpretation based on his core knowledge".

    THIS is the skill that matters in engineering, and the skill that no amount of memorization will prepare you fore.  Simply answer "no" to any of my questions without at least attempting to deduce a solution, and I will end the interview with you right there.



     

  • fhic (unregistered) in reply to GrandmasterB
    GrandmasterB:
    UMTopSpinC7:
    That is pretty good. What about, "What is your biggest weakness". Another one that's pretty tough.

    I think, from now on whenever that question is asked in an interview, I will later ask the interviewer 'whats the biggest weakness of this company's management?'

     

    There's nothing wrong with that! As an interviewee, I always ask that or a similar question ("what is this company's biggest weakness?") Some other good questions are "If I want to buy something like a book or a tool, how does the process work? How hard is it and how long does it take?). What’s the cost limit before the approval must go up the management chain?" and "How many projects have succeeded/failed in the last five years? To what do you attribute the failures?" If money is discussed at all (some interviews, particularly technical interviews, don't mention it) I'd ask a question about how raises and increases are determined. Now that I'm usually the interviewer, I rencosider an applicant if s/he doesn't ask those kind of questions.
  • W Sanders (unregistered) in reply to SumDumGuy

    >>>> Q: Could you walk me through the request-response cycle for a request to a web application, from the user's browser to the web server, and perhaps to a database, then back?

    >>>> A: No.

    Unless they guy is a web developer :-) AT least it's better answer than, "well, the operating system asks the malloc daemon for a SOAP token and passes the NFS mount back to the NAS server."

    There's usually no penalty for guessing, and certainly not for thinking out loud, but BS-ing is highly frowned upon.
     

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