• Mr Software Engineer (unregistered) in reply to 50% Opacity
    trWTF is an 80+ step "install" procedure. Sounds more like a Rube Goldberg machine than an application. Come on, add at least some packaging, otherwise you're just shifting the work from "do the job" to "try to set up a machine to do the job".

    80 steps - pah, piece of cake. Ours is more like 80 pages, double sided. My record time for an installation is 8hours - now that is a tedious day's work.

  • Someone like Kevin (unregistered) in reply to Anon
    Anon:
    Kenny:
    Nibh:
    There is no excuse for an 85 step setup process. None. You are begging for problems like this, even with smart and competent people on the other end.

    Not everybody works on point and click windows software. Or even a single application, some people develop complete systems.

    What's the install procedure for your companies mail server? web server? domain server? is it a single step? Do you even HAVE one?

    I'm sure installing a Facebook/Twitter/Google/[Insert other random web service here] server wasn't one step when they first started, and at some levels - when you're not installing multiple a month - it doesn't make sense to spend the time to automate the procedure. Lets not go into if the systems are running Windows servers, with software such as Oracle and VMware Virtual Center - apps were not designed to be scripted to be installed.

    And you say that like it's a good thing. It's not a badge of honor to have created some horrendously complicated setup procedure. And I'm sure Facebook/Twitter/whatever was a complicated setup the first time, but I sure as hell bet it isn't that complicated anymore. Once you've worked out the kinks you should be able to simplify.

    Didn't seem like anyone was saying it was a good thing. Unfortunately, not everyone's company has a hundred genius programmers that they can throw around like Facebook. What kind of silly example is that? Facebook did it, why can't you? Uh, duh.

  • (cs)
    "can you scroll back up a little bit in the configuration file?"

    If I had a big, long and ugly piece of verbatim text at which at the front was "precisely as listed below" I would mark and press ctrl+c ctrl+v. Maybe read it in my free time.

  • (cs) in reply to Beta

    If the voltage is high enough - sure thing.

  • flabdablet (unregistered)

    Freedom of choice is what they got. Freedom from choice is what you want.

  • (cs) in reply to TheCPUWizard
    TheCPUWizard:
    WhiskeyJack:
    In other words, today's story is the programming equivalent of that classic old joke:

    You: "Say hello, Steve."

    Steve: "Hello, Steve."

    Not exactly. By adding punctuation the proper response from Steve would be Hello. On the otherhand, "Say - Hello Steve" should prompt a response of "Hello Steve" from all listeners.

    It is when this is done verbally, where the meaning can quickly become unclear....

    Oh for crying out Pete's sake! The old joke begins:

    George: "Say goodnight Gracie."

  • Quirkafleeg (unregistered) in reply to Beta
    Beta:
    neosenshi:
    I work in the electrical field.
    That must be hair-raising.
    As puns go, that was shocking…
  • Quirkafleeg (unregistered) in reply to David F
    David F:
    gus:
    Not long ago I sent an e-mail to a PhD, something like this:

    Hi Grace, Hope things are fine at your new place at the big U.

    Your new password to login back to your files here is "the first name of your Indian TA" followed by "your old office number".

    She wrote back:

    I can't log in. Could you change the password to something shorter than 8 words?

    Umm....shouldn't this be 11 words?
    Not if the first part was taken literally (couldn't think quite what it meant at the time, perhaps?) and the second part was substituted appropriately.

  • pigstick (unregistered)

    Completely OT: if you go to http://sarahpalin.com you'll get a directory listing where the first file is a photo of a foreclosure sign and the other files have names like index-23232.php, index-disable.php, index-rand.php, index-error.html... but no index file. The only content is an obscure poll pie chart. Did she ask her fans whether she should go into foreclosure? (http://sarahpain.com is just a link farm, but more informative.)

  • K (unregistered) in reply to ObiWayneKenobi
    ObiWayneKenobi:
    Ah the lovely Indian mindset of never thinking outside the box, but doing exactly what is written even when any modicum of common sense would say otherwise.

    Atleast we dont think with our head inside our ass like some of you guys.

  • Kempeth (unregistered)

    For some companies a complex long installation procedure is part of their business model. That way they can charge big money every time the customer "needs" a new update installed. They also can charge even more money to train third party folks to do the installs on their behalf...

  • Thorsten M. (unregistered) in reply to Sanjay
    Sanjay:
    Mason Wheeler:
    Thorsten M.:
    The main point of computers is to automate dull manual work!

    What? Don't be ridiculous! The main point of computers is to play video games. Don't you know anything?!?

    What? Don't be ridiculous! The main point of computers is to watch porn. Don't you know anything???

    Internet porn is a serious problem for real world sex, it creates totally unrealistic expectations. Don't believe it? Visit precisely the following URL:

    xkcd dot com slash 598

  • Rezwan (unregistered)

    I would say there's one more WTF. With off shoring - when you don't get a work done - don't wait for several weeks on sending mails back and forth - pick up a call or video conferencing as soon as you can.

  • Thorsten M. (unregistered) in reply to Agitprop
    Agitprop:
    If you're not using your computer that way, you're doing it dumb.

    If you're doing it that repetetively then yeah, a script is well and good. But -

    • How long did it take to test and debug that script?
    Less time than evaluating the installation manual. The manual has to be applied by a second person, he could introduce his own inaccuracies spoiling the verification. Actual working time for each iteration: 2 persons, x hours The script is started, I spend my time on something more worthwhile, and check the result. Actual working time for each iteration: 1 person, 5 minutes.
    - How long would it take to test and debug if three steps changed or if a new environment was build to use in conjunction that didn't require two of the steps?
    Probably a similar amount of time than updating the manual. The installation should be more or less a batch process, steps could easily be added or removed. And the skript will be updated, while the manual prpbably wont, instead the next user gets some additional oral information as needed, which usually ends up messy. Another advantage of the scripting approach: The script can branch internally depending on the environment. With an installation manual the User must be aware of the details of his environment. (For questions "XP or Vista" this might be trivial, for questions "java 5" or "java 6" not each user knows it.)
    - How long would it take to test and debug that same script if you had to run it in Windows and make it submit CLI level commands to VMWare on a remote server? (practical question actually, I'm lazy enough to not want to do it for ourselves).
    Don't know. Would a chat script help here?

    Writing a good manual is neither easier nor less time consuming than writing an equally good script. But the results are more reliable since the human factor at installation time is reduced.

  • VP (unregistered)

    Having a 85 step install and configuration process is a huge WTF in itself. There is no excuse for not having automated more of those steps.

    And no the install-explanation given was good enough, retardation on the behalf of the offshore-team is not excusable. Having worked with the same kind of people I can feel the pain of whomever wrote the installation-documentation but still... 85 friggin steps, give me a break.

  • Ruben (unregistered)

    It's funny because it's true <sob>...

  • erica (unregistered) in reply to 50% Opacity

    As an experiment: list all the steps you'll need to go from a. having a new home PC arrive in a box b. being able to successfully reply to this post from that box c. being able to send an email from that box to a friend saying you replied to this post.

    That may include many steps such as: -- entering serial numbers -- applying opsys patches -- downloading and installing third-party software (browser, email client) -- copying settings from previous machine

    Count all the steps involved.

    Now write a one-step process to do all that for any of your friends.

  • Thorsten M. (unregistered) in reply to erica
    erica:
    As an experiment: list all the steps you'll need to go from a. having a new home PC arrive in a box b. being able to successfully reply to this post from that box c. being able to send an email from that box to a friend saying you replied to this post.

    That may include many steps such as: -- entering serial numbers -- applying opsys patches -- downloading and installing third-party software (browser, email client) -- copying settings from previous machine

    Count all the steps involved.

    Now write a one-step process to do all that for any of your friends.

    The hardware setup obviously can't be automized. Once the Hardware is cobbled together, assuming a router and a LAN connection, the solution is simple:

    Step one: Insert Ubuntu into the DVD drive.

    For Windows I'd probably create a disk image and a bootable DVD to put the image onto the new computer. (But I'd probably try to avoid this because of the risk of license issues.)

    (Ok, it could still be broken up into

    1. Switch on Computer
    2. Press "Open" Button on DVD drive
    3. Put Ubuntu DVD on tray, the multi colored side up
    4. Press "Close" Button on DVD drive
    5. Press reset button on computer

    and the user still needs to launch the Browser and go to this website. If this was a sensible business case however, the Boot DVD could be customized to launch firefox on (auto-)login, and firefox startup page could be set to dailywtf as well)

  • Nopiti (unregistered) in reply to erica
    • Step 1: buy a Mac
  • Burpy (unregistered)

    Reminds me of the pseudo sql I gave to a hot shot collegue (to years experience in .net dev). Something like "Select [name_of_my_field] from [name_of_my_table where]...".

    A few weeks laters the end users started to wonder why the soft kept saying something like "unknown table: [name_of_my_table"]. This guy just copied the pseudo sql and sent everything to production without even trying to run it...

  • Lee K-T (unregistered) in reply to Nopiti
    Nopiti:
    - Step 1: buy a Mac

    Step 2: buy a MorningStar

  • st0815 (unregistered)

    The real WTF: waiting several weeks before resolving the situation via VNC session. He could have done that a lot earlier, and he could have installed in on their server a lot earlier than that.

  • Anonymous (unregistered) in reply to Nopiti
    Nopiti:
    - Step 1: buy a Mac
    That gives you e-mail and web access, now all you need to do to get on with your actual work is:
    • Step 2: Buy a real computer.
  • Syntax (unregistered)

    Couldn't they write a program to install it? An installer perhaps?

  • Joe (unregistered)

    I've had my fair share of craptacular install procedures. One flight simulator in particular took 320 pages. Too bad the original makers of the flight sim didn't look into network installs for SGI. We replaced the manual disc in disc out procedure with a network install procedure, then built scripts for each server machine to handle all the configuration for that machine. 320 pages shrunk to 40 pages. Would have been less, but then again it's lolSGI.

  • erica (unregistered) in reply to Thorsten M.

    Put Ubuntu DVD on tray, the multi colored side up

    Nice try.

    But Ubuntu comes with a lengthy installation guide

    https://help.ubuntu.com/9.10/installation-guide/i386/index.html

    At least 50 potential steps in that manual alone. Of course it may all work with no manual steps involved; but without the troubleshooting checklists, that's a fragile and WTF-prone thing to try.

    That's before looking at the browser and email and ISP connection steps.

  • Josephus (unregistered)

    The really really real wtf is that after three weeks and presumably thousands of dollars of hours wasted, Julien didn't even check their config file.

  • Thorsten M. (unregistered) in reply to erica
    erica:
    > Put Ubuntu DVD on tray, the multi colored side up

    Nice try.

    But Ubuntu comes with a lengthy installation guide

    https://help.ubuntu.com/9.10/installation-guide/i386/index.html

    At least 50 potential steps in that manual alone. Of course it may all work with no manual steps involved; but without the troubleshooting checklists, that's a fragile and WTF-prone thing to try.

    That's before looking at the browser and email and ISP connection steps.

    That's what you get for wrongly applied "common sense" (from your side)... Following my instruction(s) would start the Live CD, not the installation. Browser and Mail-Client are available, regarding the ISP I already defined the precondition that the PC is connected via LAN. Thats all you need to fulfill your requirements to be able to post here.

    In case the PC is not connected via LAN, for a single friend I would probably walk him through the connection process. For a camparable business case I'd probably remaster the DVD to make sure I know what's going to happen.

    BTW: Even for an installation, most of the steps are optional to tweak the system to your needs (like partitioning the disk the way you want etc.), and are a consequence of the box being an PC, as in Personal. If I was to provide a company wide unique desktop or a defined test installation I would use the preseed feature on a remastered DVD

    https://help.ubuntu.com/9.10/installation-guide/i386/appendix-preseed.html

  • Anonymous (unregistered) in reply to Thorsten M.
    Thorsten M.:
    erica:
    > Put Ubuntu DVD on tray, the multi colored side up

    Nice try.

    But Ubuntu comes with a lengthy installation guide

    https://help.ubuntu.com/9.10/installation-guide/i386/index.html

    At least 50 potential steps in that manual alone. Of course it may all work with no manual steps involved; but without the troubleshooting checklists, that's a fragile and WTF-prone thing to try.

    That's before looking at the browser and email and ISP connection steps.

    That's what you get for wrongly applied "common sense" (from your side)... Following my instruction(s) would start the Live CD, not the installation. Browser and Mail-Client are available, regarding the ISP I already defined the precondition that the PC is connected via LAN. Thats all you need to fulfill your requirements to be able to post here.

    <snipped ramble>

    https://help.ubuntu.com/9.10/installation-guide/i386/appendix-preseed.html

    I've been following along here and I have to say that erica has proven her/his point very well. You can argue till the cows come home but it is a plain fact that not everything in the world has a nice easy one-click install, not even your beloved Ubuntu. Every post you've made has changed the rules (you're using a LiveCD now, how convenient...!) and you still haven't managed to support your opinion with anything solid.
  • (cs) in reply to ContraCorners
    ContraCorners:
    Oh for crying out Pete's sake! The old joke begins:

    George: "Say goodnight Gracie."

    I anonymized it. ;-)

  • Thorsten M. (unregistered) in reply to Anonymous
    Anonymous:
    Thorsten M.:
    erica:
    > Put Ubuntu DVD on tray, the multi colored side up

    Nice try.

    But Ubuntu comes with a lengthy installation guide

    https://help.ubuntu.com/9.10/installation-guide/i386/index.html

    At least 50 potential steps in that manual alone. Of course it may all work with no manual steps involved; but without the troubleshooting checklists, that's a fragile and WTF-prone thing to try.

    That's before looking at the browser and email and ISP connection steps.

    That's what you get for wrongly applied "common sense" (from your side)... Following my instruction(s) would start the Live CD, not the installation. Browser and Mail-Client are available, regarding the ISP I already defined the precondition that the PC is connected via LAN. Thats all you need to fulfill your requirements to be able to post here.

    <snipped ramble>

    https://help.ubuntu.com/9.10/installation-guide/i386/appendix-preseed.html

    ... Every post you've made has changed the rules (you're using a LiveCD now, how convenient...!) and you still haven't managed to support your opinion with anything solid.
    Could you please point me to an Ubuntu DVD ISO wich is NOT a live DVD? Never saw one ... Beside that I didn't change any rule, even the ISP/LAN constraint was mentioned in my first post.

    BTW: What would you expect me to prove? I was answering her request, not stating anything to be proved.

  • Quirkafleeg (unregistered) in reply to Thorsten M.
    Thorsten M.:
    Following my instruction(s) would start the Live CD, not the installation. Browser and Mail-Client are available, regarding the ISP I already defined the precondition that the PC is connected via LAN. Thats all you need to fulfill your requirements to be able to post here.
    So I don't need this DHCP server, then…
  • Thorsten M. (unregistered) in reply to Quirkafleeg
    Quirkafleeg:
    Thorsten M.:
    Following my instruction(s) would start the Live CD, not the installation. Browser and Mail-Client are available, regarding the ISP I already defined the precondition that the PC is connected via LAN. Thats all you need to fulfill your requirements to be able to post here.
    So I don't need this DHCP server, then…

    Ok, you got me there. Speaking of a LAN I obviously assumed too much. Since it was supposed to be a home scenario for a friend and not a business case I thought it valid to assume a low budget standard router (which usually contains an DHCP server, pray tell where you find one which hasn't this feature), no too exotic of the shelf PC hardware, etc.

    To be perfectly honest I'm not even embarresed by my previous possibly erroneous assumptions. There are still some more of them I didn't mention earlier:

    • It's an x86 architecture, no Cray or Sun
    • Nothing prevents the computer to boot from DVD
    • The outlet has the correct voltage for the Computer
    • The Computer room is not overheated (i.e. the house is currently not on fire)
    • The FSM is not bombarding the room with sticky pasta sauce

    and probably you can find even more assumptions.

    In a home network of a technically not too skilled friend I'd still expect these assumptions to hold. If he's skilled enough to maintain his LAN with fixed IP addresses I would expect him to be skilled enough to assign one to the Ubuntu Box as well; in this case I would provide the instructions as a proposal and not tell him to "precisely" follow them ...

    But this is completely beside the point anyway. If I have a commercial product and a test team testing this product I'd have a basically predefined test environment. How else could I analyse/reproduce found bugs reliably? If I do a friend a favour I can accapt a minor failure rate in case e.g. the house is actually currently burning down.

  • Vader Fan (unregistered) in reply to Lee K-T
    Lee K-T:
    Nopiti:
    - Step 1: buy a Mac

    Step 2: buy a MorningStar

    Step 3: buy a DeathStar

  • dailyWTH (unregistered)

    So why didn't you tell them to set the path right when the error: "No such file or directory" came up?

    Or are you telling us that your app doesn't check that? WTF.

  • (cs) in reply to Anonymous
    Anonymous:

    And bonus WTF...developers writing tests instead of testers writing tests? WTF?

    Yes. The agile process involves coders writing tests, testers writing code, and a mix of both coders and testers on a team.

    A coder can write a unit test (and should!); can help a tester write an appropriate QA test for the feature he's working on. After all, he's familiar with how the code works, and probably can identify the "edge cases" and breaking points much better than the tester can.

    A tester can write code; can suggest to the coder a better way of writing the code so that it is easier to test. If the tester is aware of a edge case and can get the programmer to eliminate that as a edge case, then there is one less test to write. That interaction has to happen as the code is being written.

    And testers can help write automated acceptance tests, integration tests, capacity tests, and other sorts of code.

  • RogerWilco (unregistered) in reply to 50% Opacity
    50% Opacity:
    trWTF is an 80+ step "install" procedure. Sounds more like a Rube Goldberg machine than an application. Come on, add at least some packaging, otherwise you're just shifting the work from "do the job" to "try to set up a machine to do the job".

    Exactly, especially with current installers (MSI, RPM and such) being near sripting languages of themselves.

    I have written installers that install and configure a MySQL database, add the needed tables, users, permissions and everything, and do all sorts of configuration.

    In this day and age installers can be very smart indeed.

  • (cs) in reply to Shoruke
    Shoruke:
    Further WTF: why did nobody say something like... "It buggers up when I copy/paste this one line in step 32"
    Because it probably doesn't. It probably goes through to the main installation process in step 74, puts up a progress bar, churns away for a while getting up to 45%, then tries to use the value entered in step 32 and dies.
    David F:
    gus:
    I can't log in. Could you change the password to something shorter than 8 words?
    Umm....shouldn't this be 11 words?
    Her system only accepts passwords of seven words or less.

    I had my own installation issues yesterday, trying to install an upgraded version of one Oracle product our company uses. Count the WTFs:

    • This is client-server software. Our server is happily running on a Solaris box and I'm trying to install the client on my Win XP machine. The installer has a component selection screen, but both client and server are selected and locked. There's a message saying that on Windows systems, both the client and the server will be installed.

    • Then it asks for the version and location of another piece of software that the server works with. The client doesn't need to know this information, so this is a consequence of the first issue. I enter the location of that software on my machine (since I also have the client for that installed).

    • The installer refuses to accept my values for the path to the other software, because it has "invalid characters". Only alphanumerics, underscores, hyphens and periods are allowed. Guess what's missing? Yep, it can't handle spaces. The installer refuses to let me skip this step.

    • Since the other software was installed under C:\Program Files, renaming the installation directory wasn't enough. (And the beloved Progra~1 didn't work either since ~ was not an acceptable character.) I had to copy the other installation into a folder in the root directory. After that it finally let me install the software.

    • Today I have to repeat this process on another machine. Hooray. That should be it, though.

  • (cs) in reply to Scarlet Manuka
    Scarlet Manuka:
    Shoruke:
    Further WTF: why did nobody say something like... "It buggers up when I copy/paste this one line in step 32"
    Because it probably doesn't. It probably goes through to the main installation process in step 74, puts up a progress bar, churns away for a while getting up to 45%, then tries to use the value entered in step 32 and dies.
    In fact, as I read it, "It probably goes through to the main installation process in step 74, puts up a progress bar, churns away for a while getting up to 45%, then tries to use the value 'located near the top', (but noticed after scrolling upwards from step 32) and dies."
  • Whizkid (unregistered)

    The real WTF of this article is the 85 steps of instructions to setup the application.. Any manual installation with more than 5-6 steps is going to invite trouble. In a big configuration file, if the Hyderabad guys could not find the C: , its not their fault.. its the problem with US guys who don't have the expertise to automate the installation process!

    Outsourcing is sometimes bad, not most of the time it helps in saving millions of dollars!

  • T.Roll (unregistered) in reply to Whizkid
    Whizkid:
    ... Outsourcing is sometimes bad, not most of the time it helps in saving millions of dollars!

    I think many people will agree with this statement. But are you sure you wrote what you mean?

  • Quirkafleeg (unregistered) in reply to Thorsten M.
    Thorsten M.:
    Quirkafleeg:
    Thorsten M.:
    Following my instruction(s) would start the Live CD, not the installation. Browser and Mail-Client are available, regarding the ISP I already defined the precondition that the PC is connected via LAN. Thats all you need to fulfill your requirements to be able to post here.
    So I don't need this DHCP server, then…
    Ok, you got me there. Speaking of a LAN I obviously assumed too much. Since it was supposed to be a home scenario for a friend and not a business case I thought it valid to assume a low budget standard router (which usually contains an DHCP server, pray tell where you find one which hasn't this feature), no too exotic of the shelf PC hardware, etc.
    This time last year, I was using a switching hub and a USB ADSL modem; no low-budget standard router in sight. I could quite easily assign static IP addresses or I could run a DHCP server; let's just say that I find local DNS and local DHCP more convenient than /etc/hosts all over the place.
    To be perfectly honest I'm not even embarrassed by my previous possibly erroneous assumptions. There are still some more of them I didn't mention earlier:
    • It's an x86 architecture, no Cray or Sun
    A Risc PC with a PC card would qualify (due to the PC card)…
    - Nothing prevents the computer to boot from DVD
    … but it would fail on this.
    - The outlet has the correct voltage for the Computer
  • The Computer room is not overheated (i.e. the house is currently not on fire)
  • The FSM is not bombarding the room with sticky pasta sauce

    • and probably you can find even more assumptions.

    Probably, yes, though I'm not sure that I want to know what you did to trigger a pasta sauce bombardment.

  • it's a mara (unregistered) in reply to 50% Opacity
    50% Opacity:
    trWTF is an 80+ step "install" procedure. Sounds more like a Rube Goldberg machine than an application. Come on, add at least some packaging, otherwise you're just shifting the work from "do the job" to "try to set up a machine to do the job".

    Exactly. Step 1. Open a text editor. Step 2. Type "void main(int argc, char *argv[]) {" Step 3...

    So, morons, we haz them: The OP was an idiot for not expecting something done exactly as instructed and the off-shore team (why at sea?) were idiots for not telling about/demanding change for an obvious glitch in the instructions.

  • ingenium-unobtainium alloy (unregistered) in reply to Vader Fan
    Vader Fan:
    Lee K-T:
    Nopiti:
    - Step 1: buy a Mac

    Step 2: buy a MorningStar

    Step 3: buy a DeathStar

    Lucifer trumps your little pet rock.

  • T.Roll (unregistered) in reply to Quirkafleeg
    Quirkafleeg:
    Thorsten M.:
    - The FSM is not bombarding the room with sticky pasta sauce

    and probably you can find even more assumptions.

    Probably, yes, though I'm not sure that I want to know what you did to trigger a pasta sauce bombardment.
    I'm not sure either. But our knowledge of the Great Flying Spaghetti Monster ist still somewhat limited, so you never know. And since I'm a careful eater, the occassional stains on my shirt after eating must be understood as a warning sign from the Spaghettines.

  • MOH (unregistered) in reply to gus

    Duh, what a fool. Her password was 11 words, and she was only entering 8 of them

  • Ben (unregistered)

    This story is so true. Good thing is you end up with a complete and exact documentation of a task. Bad thing is that you could have performed the process thrice yourself in the meantime. So, only makes sense if the task is exactly the same every time...but then you would be better off automating it because of human errors... ;)

  • (cs)

    Sorry, but 98% of the comments so far have completely missed the point.

    Now I have as many problems with offshore resources as the next guy, and yes, 85 steps does seem excessive but sometimes you just can't do everything with install scripts.

    As someone mentioned earlier, TRWTF is that in response to the very first email Julien didn't immediately reply "Send me the error log", in which he would have seen something like

    2010-01-12_11:23:04.134 - Error: Can't find environment folder (PATH_TO_TST_ENV), value = [Path to the test environment (absolute, such as C:\TestEnv)]

    As far as I can tell this is a system complicated enough to have an 85 step install process but it doesn't even have the most basic exception handling. You can't blame the testers for that. Even if they had completely understood the install instructions they might have made a typo, or a network drive might be unavailable, or permissions might not have been set correctly on the folder etc etc.

    The software itself is TRWTF.

  • Whizkid (unregistered) in reply to Whizkid

    Sorry the "NOT" was NOT there :) .

    Americans and Europeans outsource to India and Philippines to Save money and nothing else!! And hey continue to do so.. that means outsourcing is helping them to save Billions of dollars!

  • RB (unregistered)

    Julien's company must be hiring high school grads to execute their jobs in India !! Otherwise there won't be any stupid such engineer to crib about the installation and do mistake like the one mentioned here. BTW, almost in last 6 years, I worked with American teams. None of them even bothered to stay late and get the things resolved. It's always off-shore team burnt their nights in office !!

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