• rbs (unregistered) in reply to Bill

    "Same company whose paper based version control required me to print 600 pages of source code to check-in."

    I think I used to work for that company.

  • lantastik (unregistered) in reply to T $
    T $:
    I'm pretty sure this is an urban legend, rather than a full-fledged WTF.
    Yeah, I have heard this story about 900 times with minor contextual changes. Like all good IT stories, there may have been a degree of truth at one point, but the regurgitation ruins it.

    i.e. CD-ROM coffee holder, mouse foot pedal, mousing on the screen, etc.

    ...and they always seem to start with, "I swear this happened" or "A guy I know told me".

  • TopCod3r (unregistered) in reply to roxor
    roxor:
    TopCod3r:
    So what? You think the manager should have just corrected all the grammar and spelling mistakes himself? What a nice and accomodating manager that would be :) But the employee would never learn anything then. By giving a red marked up hard copy of the email at least the employee realized the problems and was able to learn from it.

    I guess you missed the fact that the employee was required to rewrite the whole mail in order to fix errors from them?

    Does your email client have a Sent Items folder?

  • TopCod3r (unregistered) in reply to Code Slave
    Code Slave:
    TopCod3r:
    GalacticCowboy:
    I had a manager for a while whose "engineering" background was in mining or something like that. Given how computer unsavvy he was, I'm not sure how he ended up managing a development team.

    On one occasion he:

    1. Printed out an e-mail from one of the team members
    2. Marked it up with red ink to correct all of the grammar and spelling mistakes (the only thing in the document he actually understood)
    3. Carried it over to the developer's desk
    4. Asked him to correct all of the marked items and
    5. E-mail it back to him when finished.

    So what? You think the manager should have just corrected all the grammar and spelling mistakes himself? What a nice and accomodating (sic! - accommodating) manager that would be :) But the employee would never learn anything then. By giving a red marked up hard copy of the email at least the employee realized the problems and was able to learn from it.

    All you youngsters need to realize that not all paper-based processes are WTFs!

    Speling an grammer mistakes happen all the times :-)

    However, you wouldn't correct someone's grammar or pronunciation in a face to face conversation - would you? So why would you do that in e-mail? It's rude and humiliating.

    If it were my employee and he/she were representing my company, then yes, I would correct their grammar face to face. I'm not saying I am the grammar expert, but when something is important it has to be proofread.

  • A Gould (unregistered)

    Actually, for a low-tech staff (read: people who don't know how to do page layout), that's a pretty good way to do it - they can try things, it works the way they expect, and the end user still has a usable document.

    Yes, it's terribly retro, but it wasn't that many years ago that a lot of publishing was done that way.

  • (cs) in reply to billswift
    billswift:
    I'm glad I don't work on a team with you.

    Poor grammar or spelling, much less both, make your readers work harder to understand what you are trying to get across.

    If the spelling is bad enough, I don't even try to read comments, even on sites I like.

    There are degrees of importance in both spelling and grammar. In fully informal forms of communication such as text messaging or even online chats, these rules are mostly ignored.

    The rules become tighter when the form of communication becomes more formalized. Internal email should not adhere to strict rules but should be free of blatant mistakes. You would not want a single spelling mistake on a resume, but true grammar is often pushed aside in order to make things concise, hence the list form of accomplishments rather than a paragraph. When you start getting into legally binding documents, even the slightest grammar flaw can mean the difference between millions of dollars gained or lost.

    The point here is, the rules of spelling and grammar are flexible in certain settings, and expected to be so. You would not want to pay the rates to have everything proper when texting would you?

  • tsmith (unregistered)

    See http://www.google.ca/search?q=paper+prototyping

    As someone mentioned, it's actually a pretty common (and useful) HCI method of making interface mockups.

  • Brian (unregistered)

    So they were doing some Paper Prototyping... I know there must be some UI guys on here that know what that is.

    This is the most non WTF yet.

  • Brian (unregistered) in reply to tsmith
    tsmith:
    See http://www.google.ca/search?q=paper+prototyping

    As someone mentioned, it's actually a pretty common (and useful) HCI method of making interface mockups.

    Ahh well, you beat me by a minute.

  • tsmith (unregistered)

    also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_prototyping

    Quote from the wiki:

    "Paper prototyping saves time and money since it enables developers to test product interfaces (from software and websites to cell phones and microwave ovens) before they write code or begin development. This also allows for easy and inexpensive modification to existing designs. Iterative usability testing of prototypes leads designers and developers to a progressively bug-free interface, which they can then develop with a fair amount of confidence."

    Another benefit is that your users will be more honest with their critiques of a paper prototype since it doesn't look like it took too much time to put together.

  • tsmith (unregistered) in reply to Brian
    Brian:
    tsmith:
    See http://www.google.ca/search?q=paper+prototyping

    As someone mentioned, it's actually a pretty common (and useful) HCI method of making interface mockups.

    Ahh well, you beat me by a minute.

    Ah, but you got the wikipedia link in before I did :)

  • (cs) in reply to KattMan
    There are degrees of importance in both spelling and grammar. In fully informal forms of communication such as text messaging or even online chats, these rules are mostly ignored.

    You know, it's very much like how you dress at work. Some people think wearing a dirty t-shirt and ripped up jeans to work is perfectly acceptable, and some (like me) don't. I'm not one who considers appearances to be everything (and if you ever saw me, you'd know that to be true), but like it or not, appearances do matter. Likewise, some people think nothing of poor grammar and spelling ("It don't matter to no one", they might say), but like being a sloppy dresser, having sloppy grammar may well be having a negative affect on how you are perceived by your co-workers and hence affecting you and your job.

  • (cs) in reply to lantastik
    lantastik:

    i.e. CD-ROM coffee holder, mouse foot pedal, mousing on the screen, etc.

    ...and they always seem to start with, "I swear this happened" or "A guy I know told me".

    And sometimes those stories are QUITE true, but done on purpose. I've set up a second mouse on my computer to use as a foot pedal for a few games.

  • BCS (unregistered) in reply to Bill

    I known of a man who, while he was comfortable with a computer, would still edit documents by printing them out, cutting them into strips and rearranging them on the desk. He just liked to do it that way. I cant blame him either. Late in the edit cycle I usually print out documents and sit down with a red pen. For some reason it just works better that way.

  • BCS (unregistered) in reply to Brian

    The WTF part is that Fax and the confusion over the term "cut and paste". I would have scanned the mockup and e-mailed that rather than fax it. (It would let you keep digital copies around) Also the people on the other end should have known right away that saying "cut and paste prevents us from e-mailing" would be confusing.

    Both minor pointss, but the story is fun anyway.

  • (cs) in reply to n9ds
    n9ds:
    There are degrees of importance in both spelling and grammar. In fully informal forms of communication such as text messaging or even online chats, these rules are mostly ignored.

    You know, it's very much like how you dress at work. Some people think wearing a dirty t-shirt and ripped up jeans to work is perfectly acceptable, and some (like me) don't. I'm not one who considers appearances to be everything (and if you ever saw me, you'd know that to be true), but like it or not, appearances do matter. Likewise, some people think nothing of poor grammar and spelling ("It don't matter to no one", they might say), but like being a sloppy dresser, having sloppy grammar may well be having a negative affect on how you are perceived by your co-workers and hence affecting you and your job.

    As I stated before it is still about context. The ripped jeans and t-short would not be appropriate in the context of a financial institution, but wear that to work in some other places (record store, recording studio, fine art restoration warehouse, Hot Topic, etc) would be the expected; your suit would be more than inappropriate in those locations.

    Appearance, grammar and spelling, follow the rules of the situation. There is no one defined set that works for all situations.

  • (cs)

    I've done plenty of paper prototyping for HCI courses. It is a very efficient and fast way to get to what you want. You can move styff around and the person next to you can just come and say "what if you moved this there" and you can immediately see results.

    Also when doing interfaces from scratch, in my mind the most efficient way is to do proper looking controls with some developing tool and then screenshot those and print or copy-paste to Paint and just start moving the stuff around instead of trying to actually do proper prototype.

    So the real WTF here is that people fail to realise that the original article was mostly about the two meanings of copy-paste. ;)

  • Jessica (unregistered)

    Rory Blyth offers a good description of what these people are thinking in the following blog entry: Excel as a database

  • Gilhad (unregistered)

    Dress code: I found interesting thing, when I was doing support for some accounting software. The end-users were old womens (around 50 or more) and the computers were root of evil for them. They did not understand it, but had to work with it or get fired (without chance for another good position).

    That sofware worked well. But it was strange that sometimes they reported it as broken as hell and sometimes they reported it as the perfect tool - all without any SW change.

    The mystery was later solved - it depended on who did last training to them - when it was some suit from our company, the SW was terrible. When it was me or my coworker, the SW was perfect.

    I maneged to got in some training with the suit and the reason was obviuos: the ladies was simply frozen in fear, they yes-yes- noded to everthing, asked nothing and ofcourse learned anything. When I came in, in jeans and flanel they reacted normally: "Would you like some cofee? I do not uderstand this and that, I can not do this ... blah blah blah ..." They was not afraid of me, as they had similar sons at home and there was nothing to be ashamed of ... And I responded in way "Thank for cofee. This thing is simple, you will manage it easy such and such. Yes, just write it down to paper, step by step, it will help you next time, blah blah blah"

    So it was simply reversed dress code, which was needed to have perfect responce from end-users.

    On manager level on the other side was suit the first and last requirement for communication. But happilly I was not forced to be there most of the time ;-)

    (Sorry, english is my third language)

  • Steve (unregistered)

    I'm with some of the other commentors: Physical cut and paste may be easier and more productive than mucking around with something like Photoshop.

  • malusman (unregistered)

    The marketing director at my previous employer edited our online catalog by printing out all 100+ pages and actually cutting and gluing the items the way she wanted them. This was in 2003.

    The same marketing director wondered why she could not get our website to display when she typed in HTPP:// before the URL. Her boss, a president of one of our divisions, asked one day, "We have a website?"

  • EmmanuelW (unregistered)

    "having sloppy grammar may well be having a negative affect on how you are perceived by your co-workers and hence affecting you and your job."

    I think you meant: "...be having a negative effect..."

    Cheers,

    Emmanuel

  • Da' Man (unregistered)

    Hey, that's really where the expression "Cut & Paste" comes from. No WTF at all.

    And, just as a reminder: "Computer" once used to be a profession; 'twas kind of similar to what we now call a "Coding Monkey" ;-)

  • (cs)

    I have the same opinion of Microsoft Outlook. I can't be bothered to learn it. I just write all my emails on notebook paper and fax them. I've never received any complaints on the subject.

  • Garth (unregistered)

    This is actually an accepted and in many ways good technique for early prototyping. Cutting and pasting and sketching allows you to iterate over ideas quickly.

    Not so great if you then need to fax it around, though.

  • (cs) in reply to lazloman
    lazloman:
    And they use their CD trays for coffee cup holder.
    Developer's never use the computers cupholder, so they leave coffee rings all over the printout's. Whats wrong with them?

    Cheryl, post this to WTF. -PHB

  • Andrew (unregistered)

    Paper based prototyping is quite popular amount developers... why is it so bad when a customer does it?

    Although it is amusing that they used the term cut and paste in its most literal sense.

    -Andrew

  • Troy McClure (unregistered) in reply to Izzy

    Cue another comment about Paper Prototyping...

    Go!

  • Fedaykin (unregistered)

    I call shenanigans! This isn't a WTF. There's no WTF in using the tools you are capable of using to communicate your desires. After all, there's a REASON they hired a technical person...

    It WOULD be a WTF if the software people had used scissors and glue instead of digital means.

    Worst WTF ever!

  • Andrew (unregistered) in reply to ChiefCrazyTalk
    ChiefCrazyTalk:
    me me:
    no wtf:
    This isn't a wtf, thats actually a good cheap way of doing mockups.

    Are you joking? A cheaper way of doing mock-ups? How is spending money on printing, faxing, glue, paper, scissors etc etc and taking ages to specifically cut and paste etc, cheaper?

    It takes longer and costs more.

    A simple cut and paste from the internet into a word document and then emailed off... way easier!

    How is it cheaper? Have you priced photoshop or MS Office lately?

    We don't know who the website customer is. They may not have a computer, but have other skills.

    Suppose they are a mom & pop art supplies store. Then, they have both the skills & cheap supplies. Since they're owner-operated, they don't have to pay wages for the work.

  • (cs) in reply to TopCod3r
    TopCod3r:
    j:
    We had a client who would print out emails they received and actually fax them to us instead of forwarding them.

    Uh, maybe that client didn't want you to have an electronic version that you could forward around to everyone, ever think of that?

    My faxes show up in my email inbox....

  • Claire (unregistered) in reply to Bill

    Hmm... That's sort of how I wrote papers in college. I'd go to a lab, do a stream-of-consciousness dump into a computer, print it out on a length of fanfold computer paper, then go home and cut it up with scissors, move pieces around, scribble additional notes or other comments, and staple the pieces together. The next day, I'd go back with my edits and fix up the document, rewriting as I went.

    But that was all because I didn't actually have my own computer. If I'm working on a really long document, I might still print it out and do a bit of cutting and pasting this way, but I can't imagine asking anyone else to make sense of the results!

  • (cs) in reply to TopCod3r
    TopCod3r:
    j:
    We had a client who would print out emails they received and actually fax them to us instead of forwarding them.

    Uh, maybe that client didn't want you to have an electronic version that you could forward around to everyone, ever think of that?

    Curse this world for lack of an inexpensive tool I could use to scan a document, and then attach that document to an email, and then forward that document around to everyone!!

    ;)

  • EoN (unregistered)

    I can't believe people are defending using scissors and glue and paper to literally cut & paste things together. That is absolutely ridiculous. Tell your CAVEMEN friends that they FAIL.

  • (cs) in reply to lantastik
    lantastik:
    T $:
    I'm pretty sure this is an urban legend, rather than a full-fledged WTF.
    Yeah, I have heard this story about 900 times with minor contextual changes. Like all good IT stories, there may have been a degree of truth at one point, but the regurgitation ruins it.

    i.e. CD-ROM coffee holder, mouse foot pedal, mousing on the screen, etc.

    ...and they always seem to start with, "I swear this happened" or "A guy I know told me".

    I can verify two very close approximations of the above as happening to me, personally (none of this friend of a friend crap).

    In 1994 I was teaching classes on how to use the original Windows Interface (anyone remember FileManager?). I taught from the back of the class with a monitor showing a dupe of my screen positioned between every two students. This particular class was an 8 hour class and this incident occurred in the latter part of the afternoon (we'd been actively using the GUI for 3 hours by now); I asked the class to point to the file menu (again, I'd been using this terminology all morning and had explained what I meant when I used the term 'point'), and sure enough, this one guy is sitting there with his index finger squarely on the file menu. I say, "No Mike (name changed to protect the guilty), I mean by using your mouse." and this guy dutifully picks his mouse up off of his desk and is using it to once again point at the file menu. I quietly walk over to him, gently push his hand back down to the desk and move his cursor over the file menu. I walk back to my desk, baffled, hoping I never eat what made his brain lapse into a coma over lunch.

    The second was three years later when I was working in computer sales. The phone rings, I answer politely and am rewarded with; "I can't believe you f&%*ing guys sold me this g%$damned computer with a broken f#^&ing CDROM drive!! I paid $2000 for this f%$#ing thing and it doesn't even f%^$ing work!!" I reply with, "Sir, I am very sorry, it certainly wouldn't be our intention to sell you a broken item. Would you mind if I asked you a few questions to determine the source of the problem?" "What!?" "Is there an error on the screen that says something about the CDROM drive?" "YES!! It says 'Error reading from device. Device not ready.'" I reply with "I'm going to ask you a really stupid question, but you're sure there's a CD in the CDROM tray, and that the tray is fully inside the machine; not half inserted or jammed in any way, correct?" "Yes, of course! There's a f%&^ing CD in the f$%6ing drive and the tray thing is in the computer!! I'm not an idiot!" "No, I understand, I just wanted to eliminate all possibilities while I'm troubleshooting so we can potentially avoid you having to bring the computer back" He then says, "Can I ask you a stupid question?" "Sure, shoot", I reply. "What way does the CD go up?" "Label side up, shiny side down" Click.

    At that poit I'm left just staring at the telephone receiver, and I burst out laughing. I told my coworkers who had been listening to my half of the conversation (as well as any profanity that had been screamed at a higher than average volume from his end) what had been said, and they burst out laughing, too. Ah... the good old days.

    Some IT urban legends are more than legend; they are, sadly, fact.

  • (cs)

    Actually, this is a very good way to review web design in a committee. It's a lot easier to transfer control of a piece of paper from one person to another over a coffee table than it is to fight over a mouse.

  • John (unregistered)

    We used to call that "Papershop" at a previous company.

  • b0b g0ats3 (unregistered)

    FIST!!!!!!!!111!!!11oneone!1111eleven

  • Magus (unregistered)

    Perhaps it's time for you to stop using the computer so much, cutting something and then pasting it is (paradoxically) called cut and paste.

  • JH (unregistered)

    I've also made UI mock-ups by hand... That is, drawing them with a ruler and pencil and cutting out various page modules. Then I would make the client move the modules around on a drawn representation of a screen and discuss the layout with them before making a digital prototype. I find that when working with a client this method is easier for them to understand and usually faster than doing it with a computer.

  • Meredith (unregistered)

    Ah yes, this is a classic! Another good one is using the CD drive as a cup holder.

  • BlueXero (unregistered) in reply to KattMan
    KattMan:
    ChiefCrazyTalk:
    me me:
    no wtf:
    This isn't a wtf, thats actually a good cheap way of doing mockups.

    Are you joking? A cheaper way of doing mock-ups? How is spending money on printing, faxing, glue, paper, scissors etc etc and taking ages to specifically cut and paste etc, cheaper?

    It takes longer and costs more.

    A simple cut and paste from the internet into a word document and then emailed off... way easier!

    How is it cheaper? Have you priced photoshop or MS Office lately?

    The cost of photoshop and/or office is a single one time purchase and not considered part of the layout process. Once that money is spent you are done. Now it is just time spent by the layout person. As to which is cheaper, how does the layout person work, how easily does it transport to the other stages of printing?

    And purchasing photoshop/office is just like purchasing a printer, fax machine, etc. The paper is an on going cost

  • (cs)

    One should not underestimate the non-digital way of designing mockups.

    Pen + paper is almost always where I start designing (webpage, gui program, sw architecture, etc), before even touching the computer.

    That said, I don't think I ever had to use scissors and glue :-D

  • floki (unregistered)

    Well, actually paper prototyping can come in very handy for people who aren't able (or don't have time) to do a 'full' prototype. It's usually done differently but in this case it showed him rather well how to change the application/web site. Good for him, because at least the customer could express what he wanted.

  • Ed Lee (unregistered) in reply to Bill

    Paper prototyping is not a bad way to convey changes or ideas when creating UI.

    http://www.alistapart.com/articles/paperprototyping

  • Neomojo (unregistered) in reply to KattMan
    KattMan:
    ChiefCrazyTalk:
    me me:
    no wtf:
    This isn't a wtf, thats actually a good cheap way of doing mockups.

    Are you joking? A cheaper way of doing mock-ups? How is spending money on printing, faxing, glue, paper, scissors etc etc and taking ages to specifically cut and paste etc, cheaper?

    It takes longer and costs more.

    A simple cut and paste from the internet into a word document and then emailed off... way easier!

    How is it cheaper? Have you priced photoshop or MS Office lately?

    The cost of photoshop and/or office is a single one time purchase and not considered part of the layout process. Once that money is spent you are done. Now it is just time spent by the layout person. As to which is cheaper, how does the layout person work, how easily does it transport to the other stages of printing?

    It might not be quite as good as photoshop, but you could get GIMP and Open Office. 0 cost for the software. OK, so the support is a different issue, but how often do you call adobe for support for photoshop?

  • Claxon (unregistered) in reply to John
    John:
    So, in other words, they were doing an _actual_ cut and paste. "Their version" was "the real thing".

    It always amazes me when people forget the actual origins of some instance of jargon. That would seem to me to be as much of a WTF (on the part of the OP) as the WTF of their client not having moved into the modern era.

    Forgetting the origins of the jargon is a wtf? Terminology moves on as time passes, so people tend to assume the meaning that is more modern, or closly related to the current subject. If they're talking about computers, then it's natural to assume they mean Cut & Paste using the computer's virtual clip board. Kinda like if they said someone in their office went of half cocked & started changing the site, you wouldn't assume they were operating 17th century firearms....

  • Lex (unregistered)

    Santo dio... (For god's sake...) Paper and scissors should be banned from offices, or at least confined in a tiny box inside a cage surrounded by lions... hungry lions...

    with herpes...

  • grammernarzee (unregistered) in reply to TopCod3r

    Quite right. Let's also consider:

    1. If the guy had written proper English in the first place, then none of this time and effort (in any form) would have been necessary.
    2. The more apparently laborious the correction process, the quicker the offender will learn.
  • ludus (unregistered)

    "Their" way of doing the mockuyps is actually a really good way. One you in some universities are taught to use rather than do mockups in programs and presenting images. LEts the clients dabble easily with them, and such mockups dont give a feeling of being final. Because of that, clients are more prone to actually ask for changes they want.

    You feel pretty silly doing it the first few times, but then you come to appreciate that way of doing website or gui mockups. /L

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