• Meep (unregistered) in reply to Matt Westwood
    Matt Westwood:
    Ton:
    Ton:
    We need a 'like' option for posts... or in this particular case: a 'ftw!' option...

    Argh. I meant to quote "Yup. Just like that grand American holiday, "July the 4th," that we just saw... ".

    As a Brit in the US one 4th of July, I was asked by a native how we celebrate 4th of July in Britain.

    What an idiot. Anyone who's been to the Merrye Olde Englande knows you can't have fireworks when it's always raining.

  • Meep (unregistered) in reply to Coyne
    Coyne:
    Bryan the K:
    TL;DR The real WTF is VB amirite?

    First??

    No, the real WTF is functions that outlive their usefulness.

    Nah, it's VB. BASIC had a fairly straightforward design: everything was a statement. Statements were control, assignment, or input/output.

    Newer BASICs took out the LET keyword, so now you had assignments, control statements and IO statements.

    VB then decides that some system calls will be done via an assignment, completely breaking the model. Ergo, TRWTF is VB, since even BASIC with its obsolescence got it right.

  • (cs) in reply to Meep
    Meep:
    Matt Westwood:
    Ton:
    Ton:
    We need a 'like' option for posts... or in this particular case: a 'ftw!' option...

    Argh. I meant to quote "Yup. Just like that grand American holiday, "July the 4th," that we just saw... ".

    As a Brit in the US one 4th of July, I was asked by a native how we celebrate 4th of July in Britain.

    What an idiot. Anyone who's been to the Merrye Olde Englande knows you can't have fireworks when it's always raining.

    +1 (with a guffaw)

    nah, us Brits are far more gung-ho than that. We deliberately hold our fireworks night right in the middle of the rainy season (5th November, so as to celebrate the almost-success of one of our more popular anarchists who spectacularly failed in his attempt to blow up the Houses of Parliament - the UK equivalent of the White House - because his gunpowder was damp). We have learned from those days to make our fireworks superior to those of most other nations by making them waterproof.

    Till you've been to a proper Bonfire Night party in Britain you haven't lived. The birthrate rockets (no pun intended) around the beginning of August.

  • Bhaadhwaal Ghanash Ullamcharphar (unregistered)

    Where I come from we use this format:

    yyy-ddd-q-w-YYY-g-ddd-ll-7

    yyy -> last three digits of the year ddd -> abbreviation of the day of the week q -> current quarter w -> day of the week YYY -> the first three digits of the year g -> current incarnation of ganash ddd -> the day again, in case you forgot it ll -> the number of days lindsay lohan has not appeared in court, so far two digits have been sufficient 7 -> 7 goes here, forgot why, but everyone does it

  • (cs) in reply to Bhaadhwaal Ghanash Ullamcharphar
    Bhaadhwaal Ghanash Ullamcharphar:
    Where I come from we use this format:

    yyy-ddd-q-w-YYY-g-ddd-ll-7

    yyy -> last three digits of the year ddd -> abbreviation of the day of the week q -> current quarter w -> day of the week YYY -> the first three digits of the year g -> current incarnation of ganash ddd -> the day again, in case you forgot it ll -> the number of days lindsay lohan has not appeared in court, so far two digits have been sufficient 7 -> 7 goes here, forgot why, but everyone does it

    I'm okay with all of this except "w". Which day does the week start? Sunday or Monday? Or Wednesday? Or what? (Can't remember which d.o.w is sacred to Ganesh.)

  • Hortical (unregistered) in reply to Matt Westwood
    Matt Westwood:
    Till you've been to a proper Bonfire Night party in Britain you haven't lived. The birthrate rockets (no pun intended) around the beginning of August.

    "...you haven't lived..." Yes, I'm sure everything you have is better than everything everyone else has.

  • jmt (unregistered) in reply to C-Octothorpe

    When I went to visit an old cemetery here in Finland, I noticed that the OTDF is actually "YY dd/mm YY" where the numbers for the year are actually much larger than the others. On even older gravestones the day and month are on top of each other and the month is expressed in Roman numerals.

    I would like to see some software that would support that beautiful style.

  • John (unregistered)

    TRWTF is working with formatted dates.... Use a goddamn time-stamp and do the formatting (and DST, timezones etc.) only when presenting a date to the user. Geez...

  • Hortical (unregistered) in reply to Matt Westwood
    Matt Westwood:
    hoodaticus:
    Matt Westwood:
    The important message from this lesson is that governments are universally redundant. Their only use is to give bossy pricks something to do to make them feel important.
    Don't forget about the busy-bodies who want to ban every benign thing you do because it doesn't please their god/philosophy/moronosity.
    Religion became redundant the moment the police force was invented.
    *facepalm*
  • (cs) in reply to Hortical
    Hortical:
    Matt Westwood:
    Till you've been to a proper Bonfire Night party in Britain you haven't lived. The birthrate rockets (no pun intended) around the beginning of August.

    "...you haven't lived..." Yes, I'm sure everything you have is better than everything everyone else has.

    But of course. We rule the world, always did, always will.

  • Stephen Cleary (unregistered) in reply to C-Octothorpe
    C-Octothorpe:
    Stephen Cleary:
    MeRp:
    kikito:
    That mm/dd/yyyy and dd/mm/yyyy business is just a blasphemous invention from devil itself.

    There is only One True Date Format and that is yyyy-mm-dd.

    There is only One True Date Format and that is x, where x is the number of seconds since Jan 1, 1970.

    Ha! Your meager OTDF still falls prey to the dreaded threats of Leap Seconds, Time Zones, Daylight Saving Time! (that's "Summer Time" for our friends across the pond)

    There is only One True Date Format and that is (x, y), where x is the number of weeks since January 6, 1980; and y is the millisecond offset into that week starting from midnight (UTC, not including leap seconds since January 6, 1980).

    And the biggest benefit is that it's human readable.

    It's second-biggest benefit is that it's unambiguous for all pre-1980 dates as well as modern dates.

  • (cs) in reply to Pete
    Pete:
    hoodaticus:
    We'll adopt international dates when the international community adopts our language.
    It isn't your language
    As badly as we've mangled it over the years, you still want it?
  • (cs) in reply to C-Octothorpe
    C-Octothorpe:
    hoodaticus:
    ...I'm at the beginning of a project to rewrite a ginormous transaction processing engine written in VBA. Can you tell I'm crying right now? 14 page long subroutines sans indentation. GOTO everywhere. Horrible variable naming. SQL queries written with VBA function calls in the query string.

    My goal is to turn it into a highly-abstract class library with lambda expressions and iterators all over the place. That should frighten off anyone like the person who wrote the goddamn thing in the first place.

    Throw in a coupla' Funcs...
    I'm not sure if that's necessary.

    From his description, it sounds funky enough.

  • (cs) in reply to Gary
    Gary:
    Duh! Just run the reports on Jan 1, Feb 2, March 3, etc.
    A valid solution; as valid as running single-page reports twice or rebooting.
  • ~~ (unregistered)

    Eeeeee... Function parameters' order depending on the system locale? Is everybody sane there in VB land?

  • Spoe (unregistered) in reply to Patrick

    At least we're only partially backwards, not completely like DD-MM-YYYY. The only logical way is biggest to smallest: YYYY-MM-DD.

  • Mark (unregistered) in reply to ContraCorners
    What is this "entire world" of which you speak?
    When you go from Los Angeles to New York following the sun. It's sometimes referred to as "Hawaii" I think ;-)
  • ~~ (unregistered) in reply to Spoe
    Spoe:
    At least we're only partially backwards, not completely like DD-MM-YYYY.
    This is of a much help when one tries to read 01-12-2011 (better yet - 01-12-11). In any case - both - sorted alphabetically - give bizarre results of sorted by day or by month.
  • (cs) in reply to Meep
    Meep:
    Bryan the K:
    TL;DR The real WTF is VB amirite?

    It really is VBA. A simple assignment to a common word changes system state, in an embedded language. Unbelievable.

    Worse than that: it doesn't even require the assignment to be of the correct type, but parses a string!

    Matt Westwood:
    As a Brit in the US one 4th of July, I was asked by a native how we celebrate 4th of July in Britain.
    I hope you told him the truth. Lots of Brits lie and say that we don't celebrate it because they're too embarrassed to admit that we call it Thanksgiving and have a second cup of tea with our cucumber sandwiches at 4p.m. to celebrate not being responsible for the current clowns competing for the White House.
  • eric76 (unregistered) in reply to Matt Westwood
    Matt Westwood:
    Ton:
    Ton:
    We need a 'like' option for posts... or in this particular case: a 'ftw!' option...

    Argh. I meant to quote "Yup. Just like that grand American holiday, "July the 4th," that we just saw... ".

    As a Brit in the US one 4th of July, I was asked by a native how we celebrate 4th of July in Britain.

    Don't you spend the day on the Ben-my-Chree traveling to the Isle of Man so you can be there on July 5th to celebrate Tynwald Day?

  • Beta (unregistered) in reply to boog
    boog:
    "You could also reboot."
    Translation: "I can't figure out what's wrong, but could you leave me alone for a while?"
    "...And then call back and bother someone else?"
  • A Kiwi (unregistered) in reply to Bort

    I (and other non-Americans) DO say 5th July. Bad assumption mate!

  • Pedant (unregistered) in reply to Matt Westwood
    Matt Westwood:
    Meep:
    Matt Westwood:
    Ton:
    Ton:
    We need a 'like' option for posts... or in this particular case: a 'ftw!' option...

    Argh. I meant to quote "Yup. Just like that grand American holiday, "July the 4th," that we just saw... ".

    As a Brit in the US one 4th of July, I was asked by a native how we celebrate 4th of July in Britain.

    What an idiot. Anyone who's been to the Merrye Olde Englande knows you can't have fireworks when it's always raining.

    +1 (with a guffaw)

    nah, us Brits are far more gung-ho than that. We deliberately hold our fireworks night right in the middle of the rainy season (5th November, so as to celebrate the almost-success of one of our more popular anarchists who spectacularly failed in his attempt to blow up the Houses of Parliament - the UK equivalent of the White House - because his gunpowder was damp). We have learned from those days to make our fireworks superior to those of most other nations by making them waterproof.

    Till you've been to a proper Bonfire Night party in Britain you haven't lived. The birthrate rockets (no pun intended) around the beginning of August.

    Actually, the Houses of Parliament are the UK equivalent of the Capitol. 10 Downing Street is the equivalent of the White House.

  • Zebedee (unregistered) in reply to Matt Westwood
    Matt Westwood:
    Zebedee:
    HP PhaserJet:
    Zebedee:
    That's interesting, most people in the UK would say two thousand and eleven. How would you say the year 2000, twenty-hundred?

    You're misunderstanding the pattern, the pattern is what way is shortest.

    We'd say it "Two-thou-sand" because it has fewer syllables than "Twen-ty-hund-red".

    And we say "Twen-ty-ele-ven" because it has fewer syllables than "Two-thou-sand-and-ele-ven".

    When it comes to informal language, I think this shortest-way pattern is acceptable. You just used a contraction. Are you going to start throwing apostrophe's everywhere.

    Well I'll forgive myself for misunderstanding the pattern, having been given only one sample to work from. And it's not me that introduced the contraction:

    1900 - Nineteen hundred 1911 - Nineteen (hundred and) eleven 2000 - Twenty hundred 2011 - Twenty (hundred and) eleven

    That follows a pattern.

    The UK way:

    1900 - Nineteen hundred 1911 - Nineteen (hundred and)eleven 2000 - Two Thousand 2011 - Two thousand and eleven

    Your way:

    2000 - Two Thousand 2011 - Twenty (hundred and) eleven

    Even less syllables:

    2011 - Two (thousand and) eleven

    Okay, as an exercise for the advanced student - express:

    1901 2001

    in UK, American, Dutch and Zebedee format.

    Damn you! You are right, nineteen hundred and oh-one does not fit the pattern (nineteen-hundred-and-oh-one makes no sense), but I would still say two-thousand-and-one. BTW, has anyone figured out what to call that decade yet? Or even this one?

  • Rookierookie (unregistered) in reply to Bort

    5th of July.

    What's wrong with you?

  • Zebedee (unregistered) in reply to Zebedee
    Zebedee:
    nineteen hundred and oh-one does not fit the pattern (nineteen-hundred-and-oh-one makes no sense), but I would still say two-thousand-and-one. BTW, has anyone figured out what to call that decade yet? Or even this one?

    That should have read 'nineteen oh-one does not fit the pattern'

  • Dirk (unregistered) in reply to Bort
    Bort:
    It's because when you say the date out loud, you don't say "5th July." You say "July 5th."
    Ummm... which holiday did you just celebrate? Say it out loud bitch.
  • (cs) in reply to Dirk
    Dirk:
    Bort:
    It's because when you say the date out loud, you don't say "5th July." You say "July 5th."
    Ummm... which holiday did you just celebrate? Say it out loud bitch.
    IN-DE-PEN-DENCE-DAY.

    I don't get it.

  • distracted (unregistered) in reply to Dirk
    Dirk:
    Bort:
    It's because when you say the date out loud, you don't say "5th July." You say "July 5th."
    Ummm... which holiday did you just celebrate? Say it out loud bitch.
    "Independence Day"

    Or at least that's the response I got when I challenged someone on this same question a few years ago.

  • Post Master General (unregistered) in reply to Zebedee
    Zebedee:
    BTW, has anyone figured out what to call that decade yet? Or even this one?

    That was the oughts. This is the teens.

  • Shinobu (unregistered) in reply to Steve The Cynic

    The real WTF is that the date assignment line in question is a no-op on American systems. What kind of superstition made people add it in is beyond me. Also, if your users tell you that your software does X, and you don't know how to do X in the programming language / runtime you're using, look it up.

    Steve The Cynic:
    Oh, and it has dead-keys for accents. That's lame on any keyboard layout.
    It sure beats AltGr+impossible to remember letter, or Alt+impossible to remember numerical code. Still, I prefer the US International layout to AZERTY.

    Bonus historical note: DATE$ = <value> was already present in GW-BASIC. In VB properties were introduced and the DATE$ function and DATE$ = statement were turned into the Date property, although VB4's help file still talks about the Date function and the Date statement. (These pages are cross-linked from the other date-time functions, so the developers have no excuse. In particular the Date function page, where they probably got their date in the first place, reads: To set the system date, use the Date statement. A notable doc flaw is that it isn't cross-linked from the Date data type, but judging from the code snippet, the developers didn't use it.)

  • kosh (unregistered)

    The real WTF is that the bug report was described as "superstitious" and disbelieved. Because that's a pretty good and specific behavioral description and should've triggered alarm bells.

    The other WTF is that the user had to insist on having someone observe it.

  • Son Of Thor (unregistered)

    And while we are at it Stop priting on US letter format.

    If I want to print a web page I dont want the left edge cut off

  • (cs) in reply to Bort
    Bort:
    It's because when you say the date out loud, you don't say "5th July." You say "July 5th."
    No, I say "the 5th of July"
  • (cs) in reply to paul
    paul:
    So now if I try to localize my program using built-in date functions, I have to fucking worry about the order of the month and day? Unbelievable.
    I'm not sure where you got this from. If you want to display a date to the user, format it using vbLongDate or vbShortDate as appropriate, which use the long and short date formats defined in regional settings. (There are also vbGeneralDate, vbLongTime and vbShortTime formats, all of which use the user's settings.) The problem is lazy developers who hardcode the date format to whatever they're used to.
    ~~:
    Eeeeee... Function parameters' order depending on the system locale? Is everybody sane there in VB land?
    There was only one function parameter in this instance: the date to which you want the system date to be set. The programmer just assembled a string in his favourite date order and hit the Date function with it, so the Date function did its best to interpret it. If he'd used a Date object, or even a string formatted with the system setting, there'd have been no problem.

    But it's highly likely, as others have mentioned, that the programmer didn't intend to be calling Date at all in this code - rather, he probably intended to use a local variable to store a formatted string. Multiple fails here still, including using a variable with the same name as an inbuilt function, (presumably) omitting the variable declaration, and not using the regional settings to format your date string.

  • 23 (unregistered) in reply to Pedant

    "Actually, the Houses of Parliament are the UK equivalent of the Capitol. 10 Downing Street is the equivalent of the White House."

    Wrong, sorry. The White House is the residence of the US head of state. In the UK the head of state is the queen, so the approximate equivalent of the White House would be Buckingham Palace.

  • Earp (unregistered) in reply to Ben

    'Hold up. The developer was able to confirm the problem, and then just shrugged and said "no apparent root cause" and went on his way? A bug like this is easy to track down -- attach the debugger remotely and use binary search to find out where the date change happens.'

    Exactly. The REAL WTF is that the tech had a confirmed, reproducible issue, and instead of solving it (which would have involved shock actual diagnosis) fobbed the users off with a crappy workaround for over a year.

    Sounds like a first level support drone who will never get to any other role (hopefully).

  • Arvind (unregistered)

    TRWTF is the We All Live In America attitude. Seriously, why would it take THREE YEARS to identify that it was an issue with the date format?

  • (cs) in reply to 23
    23:
    "Actually, the Houses of Parliament are the UK equivalent of the Capitol. 10 Downing Street is the equivalent of the White House."

    Wrong, sorry. The White House is the residence of the US head of state. In the UK the head of state is the queen, so the approximate equivalent of the White House would be Buckingham Palace.

    the US president holds both head of the state and prime minister functions, so the equivalent would be Buckingham Palace AND 10 Downing Street.

  • Trevor (unregistered) in reply to WC

    Interesting that for really "important" dates they go back to the British method.

  • Simon (unregistered) in reply to Someone who can't be bothered to login from work
    Someone who can't be bothered to login from work:
    Belgium can't regulate anything, they can't even elect a government right now. Seriously, they went for nearly eight months without one. They might still be without one for all I know.

    And are probably functioning at least as well as the rest of us...

  • (cs) in reply to Post Master General
    Post Master General:
    Zebedee:
    BTW, has anyone figured out what to call that decade yet? Or even this one?

    That was the oughts. This is the teens.

    Last decade was generally referred to by the press in the UK as the "noughties". I suppose "teens" will do for this one.

  • ~~ (unregistered) in reply to Scarlet Manuka
    Scarlet Manuka:
    ~~:
    Eeeeee... Function parameters' order depending on the system locale? Is everybody sane there in VB land?
    There was only one function parameter in this instance: the date to which you want the system date to be set. The programmer just assembled a string in his favourite date order and hit the Date function with it, so the Date function did its best to interpret it.
    And this is insane for the date function to interpret the input without means to validate its guesses, and changing the system configuration on that. In any case localizing the functions' input is just as sane, as localizing the programming language (some Access version had it... Imagine changing the system language...). This function tries to combine the business logic and the presentation, and nicely fails. Surprisingly, only in one place.
    Scarlet Manuka:
    If he'd used a Date object, or even a string formatted with the system setting, there'd have been no problem.
    Probably, but this is wishful thinking. He should at least have been warned.
    Scarlet Manuka:
    But it's highly likely, as others have mentioned, that the programmer didn't intend to be calling Date at all in this code - rather, he probably intended to use a local variable to store a formatted string. Multiple fails here still, including using a variable with the same name as an inbuilt function, (presumably) omitting the variable declaration, and not using the regional settings to format your date string.
    True, the developer made bunch of mistakes. And no warning from the interpreter? No screams from the code validator? Anything goes?

    So far we have:

    • function making wild guesses on it's input and modifying system time on the result,
    • function that breaks BL/presentation separation,
    • environment/language hiding errors from developers,
    • and the sloppy/inexperienced/tired/... developer. Still see it more as a failure of VB, than the developer.
  • (cs) in reply to Scarlet Manuka
    Scarlet Manuka:
    paul:
    So now if I try to localize my program using built-in date functions, I have to fucking worry about the order of the month and day? Unbelievable.
    I'm not sure where you got this from. If you want to display a date to the user, format it using vbLongDate or vbShortDate as appropriate, which use the long and short date formats defined in regional settings. (There are also vbGeneralDate, vbLongTime and vbShortTime formats, all of which use the user's settings.) The problem is lazy developers who hardcode the date format to whatever they're used to.
    ~~:
    Eeeeee... Function parameters' order depending on the system locale? Is everybody sane there in VB land?
    There was only one function parameter in this instance: the date to which you want the system date to be set. The programmer just assembled a string in his favourite date order and hit the Date function with it, so the Date function did its best to interpret it. If he'd used a Date object, or even a string formatted with the system setting, there'd have been no problem.

    But it's highly likely, as others have mentioned, that the programmer didn't intend to be calling Date at all in this code - rather, he probably intended to use a local variable to store a formatted string. Multiple fails here still, including using a variable with the same name as an inbuilt function, (presumably) omitting the variable declaration, and not using the regional settings to format your date string.

    ... and failure to respond to the alarm bell (alluded to but not stated explicitly elsewhere) that the program would only run when the user was configured as "administrator".

  • David Martensson (unregistered) in reply to Meep
    Meep:
    Zebedee:
    It was fairly obvious from the first sentence that this was going to have something to do with the unusual way Americans represent dates.

    Ah, as opposed to the international standard of yymmdd, or, wait, is it ddmmyy?

    It just breaks my heart that I'm not a European and don't have a bunch of obsessive compulsive Belgian bureaucrats to regulate every fucking aspect of my life.

    Either YYMMDD or DDMMYY is logical, start with most significant value (year) or most precise value (day).

    The American format with month first is due to their way of saying dates in spoken language, "October 5th, 2011".

    Also, in computer situations you should always go for SQL standard, "YYYY-MM-DD hh:ii:ss" that will as far as I have seen work in any situation no matter what language you work with and it is unambiguous.

  • Guido (unregistered)

    Step 1: Reproduce Bug by setting French localization on Test/Developer System (pretty obvious to most developers) Step 2: Reduce functionality until bug disappears Step 3: Isolate just removed functionality through separate test Step 4: Repeat Steps 2 and 3 until epiphany occurs

    Shouldn't take that long...

  • Banaan (unregistered) in reply to luptatum
    luptatum:
    Anyone speaking ISO (yyyy-mm-dd) btw.?

    I am, because that, at least, is numeric sortable.

    TRWTF is ofcourse a function that takes values that are dependant on language settings, instead of taking either ISO/Epoch, or forcing to enter a date format.

  • Kempeth (unregistered) in reply to Matt Westwood
    Matt Westwood:
    Hortical:
    Matt Westwood:
    Till you've been to a proper Bonfire Night party in Britain you haven't lived. The birthrate rockets (no pun intended) around the beginning of August.

    "...you haven't lived..." Yes, I'm sure everything you have is better than everything everyone else has.

    But of course. We rule the world, always did, always will.

    Yeah. You know that "Special Relationship" they always talk about. They just don't want to admit the US is still a colony... ;-p

    Also do you have any measurement unit that scales to another through a power of ten? I seriously cannot imagine how one can stay sane working with all those weird units...

  • Blerp (unregistered) in reply to Guido
    Guido:
    Step 1: Reproduce Bug by setting French localization on Test/Developer System (pretty obvious to most developers) Step 2: Reduce functionality until bug disappears Step 3: Isolate just removed functionality through separate test Step 4: Repeat Steps 2 and 3 until epiphany occurs

    Shouldn't take that long...

    Or confiscate one of the Frenchies PC's and start tracing.

  • (cs) in reply to CDave
    CDave:
    Severity One:
    Well, the typical American unawareness of people in other countries doing things differently (actually, the entire world doing things differently) is an issue, of course. Well, at least we don't get 'Letter' as standard paper format instead of A4. That's the progress over the last 20 years. Now, if we wouldn't be wouldn't be forced to enter our state, (bit useless if you live in a country with just over 400,000 people) that would be really swell.
    What makes you think Americans should conform to the way you do things? Are you really so arrogant that you can't tolerate any other way of doing things other than your own? Every time I see some arrogant pos like this I thank god my ancestors left the "old" country.
    Yes, and we're quite happy that we got rid of all the religious fanatics, Irish who couldn't get a potato from the ground, or Sicilians who otherwise would have ended up at the business end of a lupara. But I digress.

    The point is, since you're happy to sell your software to us, you should at least make an effort to conform to the standards that we're using, and some of those standards come from a time that you could count the number of US presidents on the fingers of one hand.

    NOBODY outside the USA, Liberia and Burma/Myanmar uses imperial measurements, yet somehow office software think we use inches.

    EVERYBODY with the exception of Japan, Canada, Mexico and the USA use the A-sizes for paper, yet somehow Windows used to think that we use Letter, Legal, etc. Even to this day I get documents, written by European users, that are in the Letter format, because that's what the paper size is set to.

    Now, well a decade into the 21st century, we actually get the standards we use without having to set them manually, and admittedly, it's been like this for a while now.

    But still, if I purchase a game from Steam, I have to fill in my state. Never mind that very few countries outside the USA use this. If you send a letter to someone in Cologne, do you have to specify that it is in North Rhine-Westphalia? Not bloody likely.

    And even though Germany has states, the country I live in is a handful of islands in the middle of the Mediterranean. You can cross it in two hours, and that includes a ferry trip. Not surprisingly, there aren't any states, nor provinces, nor any other layer between the government and local councils (more or less like a county in the USA).

    So no, I'm not being arrogant, I just don't want someone else's standards forced upon me. And that's not an unreasonable thing to ask.

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