• Fish in a Barrel (unregistered) in reply to Someone You Know
    Someone You Know:
    I'm in New York. Why is it illegal in California? The contract doesn't say you can't leave without notice; it only says that if you don't, you don't get paid for your unused vacation days.
    Because you're too powerless and stupid to look after yourself. Government needs to do it for you.
  • unholyguy (unregistered) in reply to Someone You Know
    Comment held for moderation.
  • Jeff (unregistered) in reply to Ken B
      "You can't quit, you're fired! Starting in three weeks."
    

    That would allow you to collect unemployment in your downtime ;)

  • unholyguy (unregistered) in reply to ChiefCrazyTalk
    Comment held for moderation.
  • rast (unregistered) in reply to Someone You Know
    Someone You Know:
    Where I work, failure to give notice ten working days in advance causes you to lose your accumulated vacation time (which you would otherwise be paid for upon leaving). Oh, and you have to actually work all ten of those days.

    Where I work, giving notice means you lose any accumulated vacation time.

  • (cs) in reply to rast
    rast:
    Someone You Know:
    Where I work, failure to give notice ten working days in advance causes you to lose your accumulated vacation time (which you would otherwise be paid for upon leaving). Oh, and you have to actually work all ten of those days.

    Where I work, giving notice means you lose any accumulated vacation time.

    Companies doing this are stupid really. The employees just end up taking their vacations then giving notice on their return. This gives the employee a sense of control, since they can then decide to just ditch the place and not put in any "transfer or knowledge" time because they got all they needed.

    Basically companies they don't give their workers courtesy, won't get the courtesy back.

  • lolpande (unregistered) in reply to Aimee

    ZOMG!! A chick!!!

  • (cs) in reply to unholyguy
    unholyguy:
    In California, vacation time is considered wages earned

    Under California law, earned vacation time is considered wages, and vacation time is earned, or vests, as labor is performed. For example, if an employee is entitled to two weeks (10 work days) of vacation per year, after six months of work he or she will have earned five days of vacation. Vacation pay accrues (adds up) as it is earned, and cannot be forfeited, even upon termination of employment, regardless of the reason for the termination.

    http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/FAQ_Vacation.htm

    This is not the case in New York

    Thanks for the info. All of this happens to be true at my particular place of work, but that's the result of our being members of an extremely powerful union, and it's certainly not the law here in New York.

  • abitslow (unregistered) in reply to Fish in a Barrel

    Yes well if I was looking for a government to look after me, i wouldn't choose the us.

  • Anon Fred (unregistered)

    In most states, a company just has to have a policy for how to handle unused leave, and they need to follow it.

    If you give notice and the company escorts you out the door immediately, can you file for unemployment?

  • ChiefCrazyTalk (unregistered) in reply to unholyguy
    Comment held for moderation.
  • sewiv (unregistered)

    Last place I worked, they had the "3 weeks notice or lose your vacation pay". I gave my notice, and they were a bit annoyed that I followed the rules (written notice, even), because they then had to pay my 5 weeks of accrued vacation. About an hour later, I was talking to one of the programmers who was also quitting. He had already written up his notice letter, and sent it to the printer, when a call came in from his boss, asking him to step into his office for a minute (happened all the time, didn't mean anything special). I almost said "Take your notice letter with you and give it to him first". He didn't, stepped into the office, got notified he was being let go, and did NOT get his vacation pay, because the ONLY way to get your vacation pay was to give the required 3 weeks notice.

    I hated that place.

  • Jay (unregistered)

    One place I worked the company hired a new receptionist. On her first day a bunch of us took her to a "welcome to the company" lunch. After lunch, as we were all walking in the door, she said, "Oh wait, I left something in my car" and walked back out. We never saw her again. Apparently she just got in her car and drove away. Half a day with our company was all she could take.

  • (cs) in reply to Someone You Know
    Someone You Know:
    Where I work, failure to give notice ten working days in advance causes you to lose your accumulated vacation time (which you would otherwise be paid for upon leaving). Oh, and you have to actually work all ten of those days.
    "Hi, bossman? Ya, I'll be taking the next ten days off as part of my accumulated vacation... ya, thanks."

    ...2 weeks later

    "Hi, bossman? Ya, I quit. KTHXBYE."

  • af31 (unregistered)

    Last job I found a new job, and not only gave 2 weeks notice, but helpfully added a list of the projects I currently had open. I pointed out that as the only person in my department, it was not possible to complete all the projectsin two weeks, but if they would let me know the priority of each, I'd gladly do my best to get as much wrapped up as possible before my last day.

    A week and a half pass. Then the VP Marketoid, right handof the CEO stops by to talk to me about the projects. I say sure, which ones are critical to finish? He gives me a smarmy smile and says, "All of them."

    I laughed in his face. Not out of spite but genuine shock and amusement. Still laughing, I told him no, it wasn't going to happen. My new position was in another state, I still was in the process of moving, and was not planning on working overtime simply because he waited too long to get back to me. He left and didn't speak to me for the remaining 3 days.

    The last day a guy showed up to work in the department - he had been let go shortly before I started, and apparently they rehired him to take over. I spent the day trying to show him where everything was, what was in progress, etc. and he barely paid attention. Annoying and odd, but in 8 hours it wasn't my problem. At the end of the day I said, "Well, good luck. Here is a list of where all the files are." He blinked and clearly didn't understand. Then I got it. I asked, "They...did tell you this is my last day...right?" No. No they didn't. He looked like a deer in the headlights.

    I laughed all the way to my car.

  • (cs) in reply to KattMan
    KattMan:
    Companies doing this are stupid really. The employees just end up taking their vacations then giving notice on their return. This gives the employee a sense of control, since they can then decide to just ditch the place and not put in any "transfer or knowledge" time because they got all they needed.

    Basically companies they don't give their workers courtesy, won't get the courtesy back.

    AMEN!

  • (cs) in reply to Ryan
    Ryan:
    Why did they have to tell you that you were owed money? If you knew you worked the week, didn't you know you were supposed to get paid?

    I had assumed (incorrectly I guess) that they were going to mail it. I'd been waiting by the mailbox for some weeks before my friend finally mentioned that I should go back.

    It wasn't even very much (15 hours x $8/hour I guess).

  • DHM (unregistered) in reply to Thief^

    I believe, for the US, this has something to do with a non-resident getting a green card for to take a specific job. The employer has to advertise the job in the newspaper for a few weeks. Since the employer presumably has already interviewed the non-resident and wants to hire him/her, the ads tend to be short, cryptic, and in the smaller papers.

  • Jay (unregistered)

    I once saw a classified ad for a small computer that, along with how much RAM and disk space and so forth, said this computer had "65 CO2 chips". I'm guessing that this computer had a 65C02 chip -- that was a CPU made by Motorola (I think) back then. I wonder if the seller called this in to the newspaper and they mangled it copying it down over the phone, or if the guy really thought that there were 65 chips of carbon dioxide in his computer somewhere, and what he thought these were for.

  • Josh Lewison (unregistered) in reply to themagni

    The phrase "financial restitution may not be sufficient" is a trigger phrase that would increase the likelihood of the employer being granted an injunction. Nothing more sinister than that.

  • ChiefCrazyTalk (unregistered) in reply to Jay
    Jay:
    One place I worked the company hired a new receptionist. On her first day a bunch of us took her to a "welcome to the company" lunch. After lunch, as we were all walking in the door, she said, "Oh wait, I left something in my car" and walked back out. We never saw her again. Apparently she just got in her car and drove away. Half a day with our company was all she could take.
    More likely it was lunch with a bunch of geeks she couldn't take. Had a similar experience - we hired a new developer, game him some manuals to read in the morning of his first day, he went out to lunch (by himself), and was never seen from or heard from again.
  • Jay (unregistered) in reply to DHM

    Years ago I worked for a small company that had a programmer from China. Every couple of years we had to advertise for an American to do her job, and then send the government some paperwork saying that we had tried to find an American but there were no qualified applicants. So, yeah, my boss made the ads as rigorous as possible. The last thing we wanted was for someone to apply who was arguably qualified so we would have to hire them. Who wants to fire an unemployee who is known to be capable and responsible and replace her with a complete unknown? Sure, maybe the new person would be better, but if the person you have now is "good enough", why take chances?

  • EOF (unregistered) in reply to JiP
    JiP:
    In Europe, however, in any case in the Netherlands, it is very common to have a contractual period you have to honour before you can leave the company.
    Same here in Norway. And it goes both ways too. An employer can't fire an employee on short notice, since they have to respect the same period. My current period of notice is 3 months.

    But if you really want to quit before the period ends, an employer can release you from the contract. But that's up to the employer.

  • 0 (unregistered)
    George Nacht:
    or that we all are a bunch of company´s bootlicking pussies?
    hehe
  • Opportunity Lost (unregistered) in reply to Patrick
    Patrick:
    Evidently he probably misread the "At Will" part of your contract where you can leave any time you want or, more importantly, they can fire you any time they want. It's cool for them to give you 0 days notice when they decide to let you go, but you have to give 2 weeks. At my last job, as chance would have it I handed in resignation 3 days before I went on a 10 day European vacation, but gave them 3 weeks notice instead. I had 4 bosses, none of whom ever agreed on anything. One begged me to stay, one gave me a reference for the next job and one basically wanted to get rid of me. Rather than just letting me go, the one boss who was a real jerk, assigned me some token busywork for 2 weeks. He kept saying, it was my "Legacy" to leave behind. What really was happening, is that they knew that the feature I had yet to implement was crucial to the success of the product and that I was the only one there that could do it.
    Seems like you had the opportunity to create the mother of all wtf's at the request of a real-jerk!
  • (cs)

    Clearly that first developer was in such dire need of income that he hd 2 use a kbd that hd a lt of ltrs msng.

  • Anon (unregistered) in reply to Someone You Know

    In Australia Notice Periods are in the contract, and the Employer is required to Pay them whether they ask you to come in to work on those days or not.

  • John (unregistered)

    Funny... When I hired on at my present company, I heard rumors of the entire IT department quitting en-masse a few years earlier and I thought it was just exaggerated. Nope, according to the secretary, they all walked into the manager's office (who just so happens to be the same sort of fellow mentioned in the second story) and handed in their resignations together. In their resignation letters, they outlined the reasons they were leaving, namely poor management.

    After all that, the manager still kept his job and got a promotion for "keeping the place running after the incident". Go figure...

  • Technical Recruiter (unregistered) in reply to themagni

    European Companies often don't have to worry about a 2 week notice. Legally, most European nations have legislation that are biased towards companies. This gives the Employer protection. The Employees must give a notice much longer than 2 weeks..It is usually tied to the Tenure of the Employee. The longer they have been with the company, the greater the notice you must give...in most cases you are talking months!

    So the companies are less likely to write those types of NDA's etc because of the laws already in place.

    Can you imagine having to give a 4 month notice at your present employer...and then HAVE TO WORK THERE FOR THE NEXT 4 MONTHS!!

  • (cs) in reply to Aimee
    Aimee:
    // Sorry, some ov my keys are broken

    :-P

    A while back, I had a flaky (but very nice) old Dell keyboard that regularly needed keys cleaning (they'd cut out and I'd clean the contacts inside). Finally, during one such process I managed to kill a significant number of keys permanently (I don't know how), so I was trying to type on IM with a bank of keys dead. That was ... fun. And time to grab the spare keyboard :)

    I.also.remember.talking.to.someone.whose.space.bar.had.died.which.was.interesting...

  • wesley0042 (unregistered) in reply to Patrick
    Patrick:
    If you work in California that is illegal and you can sue them for that.
    Nah, you don't sue. Go to the Labor Board and they'll forcibly collect on your behalf. No lawyers required.
  • Watson (unregistered) in reply to Shanya Almafeta
    Shanya Almafeta:
    Pez:
    Personally, I'd rather spend an extra 4p (or however much a text costs) to send an extra message with proper spelling, punctuation and grammar than send anything in 'txt spk'

    In a small newspaper, another 10 words might cost $25 to $50. In a newspaper you might expect people to read, add a 0 or two onto that figure.

    If you're paying by the word "txt spk" is no cheaper than "written English".

  • (cs) in reply to Watson
    Watson:
    Shanya Almafeta:
    Pez:
    Personally, I'd rather spend an extra 4p (or however much a text costs) to send an extra message with proper spelling, punctuation and grammar than send anything in 'txt spk'

    In a small newspaper, another 10 words might cost $25 to $50. In a newspaper you might expect people to read, add a 0 or two onto that figure.

    If you're paying by the word "txt spk" is no cheaper than "written English".

    Classifieds are often billed by the line, the character, or the column inch.

  • jedicus (unregistered) in reply to themagni
    "In the event of a breach of confidentiality, the damage to the core business may be so severe that financial restitution may not be sufficient."

    WTF does that mean?

    (I am not a lawyer, much less your lawyer, and this isn't legal advice.)

    That language is in there to ensure that the employer can get an injunction against further disclosure of confidential information. In order to get an injunction, a party must show (among other things) "irreparable harm," which typically means "harm that can't be solved with money alone."

  • (cs) in reply to Jay
    Jay:
    I once saw a classified ad for a small computer that, along with how much RAM and disk space and so forth, said this computer had "65 CO2 chips". I'm guessing that this computer had a 65C02 chip -- that was a CPU made by Motorola (I think) back then.
    Western Design Center

    It's based on MOS Technology's original 6502, itself made by the same design team as the Motorola 6800.

  • david (unregistered) in reply to Anon
    Anon:
    In Australia Notice Periods are in the contract, and the Employer is required to Pay them whether they ask you to come in to work on those days or not.

    And if you unilaterally decide not to come in anyway, they subtract the notice period from your accrued leave: it's leave without notice, and they could fire you for that, but any remaining balance is still yours.

    In some industries leave without notice burns leave days at a faster rate than leave with proper agreement. Conversely, employers can't refuse to reasonably grant accrued leave.

    The only thing that can loose you your accrued leave, benefits, and notice period is stealing - including cheating on your timesheets.

    If you are a wage grunt you can't normally be sued for business loss (although your union can) But different if you are management or a contractor - you could be sued for business loss if you don't turn up. They'd still have to pay accrued leave though.

  • david (unregistered) in reply to Watson
    Watson:
    Shanya Almafeta:
    Pez:
    Personally, I'd rather spend an extra 4p (or however much a text costs) to send an extra message with proper spelling, punctuation and grammar than send anything in 'txt spk'

    In a small newspaper, another 10 words might cost $25 to $50. In a newspaper you might expect people to read, add a 0 or two onto that figure.

    If you're paying by the word "txt spk" is no cheaper than "written English".

    In traditional news speak, a 'word' is 4 characters. You get the number of words by counting the characters and dividing. Or by using a ruler.

  • (cs)

    In those countries/locales where you are "required" to give X amount of notice before quitting, I have a question: What happens to you if you break this rule? Say you just don't show up for work. Do you go to jail? Do you get your ass sued off?

    Sounds pretty psychotic to me.

  • Mark (unregistered) in reply to themagni

    160 chars. 2 txt msgs?

  • (cs) in reply to DeLos
    DeLos:
    SomeCoder:
    Giving notice is a courtesy.

    This is true in almost every case (within the US). Lots of companies actually prefer you leave the day you resign. To protect their precious trade secrets of course.

    At smaller companies sometimes the practice is to walk the employee out, not because of trade secrets or anything, but because a bitter soon-to-be-ex-employee can be a real skunk in the office. Before you know it, bitterness spreads and collateral damage accrues.

  • rcoder (unregistered)

    I was working as a contractor on a badly-managed project, and after being assigned to my fourth manager in about eight months (and getting fed up of working evenings and weekends) I put in my notice. Since we were using some non-standard tools, they asked me to stay while a replacement with similar skills to mine could be found. I told them I would stay for up to six weeks, but no longer.

    Five weeks later, they hired an inexperienced developer with none of the skills needed to complete the project, and asked me to train him to be my replacement. I gave them another three weeks, during which time the project manager became so frustrated at the lack of continued progress (given that I was spending 100% of my time trying to train the n00b instead of writing code) that he swept in, tossed out six months' worth of work, and started rewriting the project himself.

    He called me into his office on a Friday afternoon shortly after this decision and asked me to put in another long weekend -- we had a deadline coming down soon and he still didn't think the new guy was up to the workload. I told him "no", walked out, and didn't come back to the office. I had to spend another several weeks retelling the history of the entire event for his managers, the contracting agency that had initially refused to release my final paycheck, and the co-workers who were told I had simply abandoned the project for no reason.

    After that, I no longer stick around after my initially-agreed-upon final day. Ever.

  • paratus (unregistered) in reply to smxlong
    smxlong:
    In those countries/locales where you are "required" to give X amount of notice before quitting, I have a question: What happens to you if you break this rule? Say you just don't show up for work. Do you go to jail? Do you get your ass sued off?

    Sounds pretty psychotic to me.

    In sweden, Id say you wont get any unemployment, also if future potential employers find out you did taht, you probably will not get a job. No jailtime or other punishment other than no way to earn a living I suppose.

  • EPE (unregistered) in reply to Technical Recruiter
    Technical Recruiter:
    European Companies often don't have to worry about a 2 week notice. Legally, most European nations have legislation that are biased towards companies. This gives the Employer protection. The Employees must give a notice much longer than 2 weeks..It is usually tied to the Tenure of the Employee. The longer they have been with the company, the greater the notice you must give...in most cases you are talking months!

    So the companies are less likely to write those types of NDA's etc because of the laws already in place.

    Can you imagine having to give a 4 month notice at your present employer...and then HAVE TO WORK THERE FOR THE NEXT 4 MONTHS!!

    I do not know where in Europe you live, but here in Spain things are quite different. Both the employee and the employer must give a two week notice. When someone is fired, it is common practice to leave the office immediately, but he will be paid for the remaining two weeks.

  • Vollhorst (unregistered)

    The company I worked for while still being a university student had four people in the web department. Two students (including me) and two regular employees. When I said I would quit (1 month notice) the boss was quite shocked since he had some more projects for me. A day later one of the regulars told he wants to leave too. A week later the next and therefor last regular leaves.

    Now the company only has one student who has to update and fix six big web sites. It is a hell of a job as he was never introduced in the work his coworkers have done. And the code is a pure mess as there was never the time to plan things.

    But the boss doesn't know how bad things are as he is seldom at work. At the moment he is working at his new home to get things straight. Best thing to do when half of the staff quits and the other half is looking for new jobs...

  • s. (unregistered) in reply to EOF

    The employer can tell you to use up any remaining vacation, and not to come to work any more, but they still need to pay you for the remaining notice period as if you worked.

    The employee can make you work the whole remaining notice period but if you have any overdue vacation, they will have to pay you extra for that.

    The employer can't 'just quit' without notice period. Not coming to work may result in all kinds of penalties just as if you didn't show up, including possibly court effects.

    Both the employer and the employee are free to refuse the resignation of the other party. Doesn't matter, an attempt to hand it, with witnesses, is enough to start your notice period running.

  • JimM (unregistered) in reply to smxlong
    smxlong:
    In those countries/locales where you are "required" to give X amount of notice before quitting, I have a question: What happens to you if you break this rule? Say you just don't show up for work. Do you go to jail? Do you get your ass sued off?

    Sounds pretty psychotic to me.

    In the UK I don't think there's any formal action that can be taken, but since most jobs require your last 2 employers as references it's basically bridge burning. Also I believe that if your remaining leave doesn't cover the entire notice period any unworked days can be subtracted from your last pay (the vast majority of UK employers pay entirely in arrears, but not all). So if you're going to just walk out, do it after pay day. (as an aside, I suspect that if you had a job that paid part in advance (some public sector employers pay in the middle of the month to cover the whole month, so effectively 2 weeks arrears and 2 weeks advance) and you walked out just after pay day with less than 2 week's holiday allowance remaining, the employer would have a case for asking you to be arrested and prosectued for theft (you have obtained 2 week's pay dishonestly, after all). That's just a guess mind you, I don't know for a fact...)

    As a further aside, it's very hard to just fire someone in UK employment law, unless they are a temp or an employer-given notice period is written into their contract. Even temporary contracts generally have some kind of notice period - I'm currently temp contracting and if my employer wants to end the contract early they have to give me 1 week's notice to finish. Remembering that I have adminitsrative access to a number of their servers, you can imagine how likely that is to happen ;^) One of my colleague here was once taken, with his entire department, to a hotel twenty miles from his place of work for a "conference" meeting with management. They were all given one month's notice, and told to go home. In the mean time every lock code, access card and network password for the entire department was revoked or changed. if you're going to sack people in the UK, be really careful about what they have access to afterwards ;^)

  • s. (unregistered) in reply to smxlong
    smxlong:
    In those countries/locales where you are "required" to give X amount of notice before quitting, I have a question: What happens to you if you break this rule? Say you just don't show up for work. Do you go to jail? Do you get your ass sued off?

    Sounds pretty psychotic to me.

    You may get your ass sued off (up to the resulting damage) if your not showing up caused any damage (say, they needed to recall someone from vacation, it costs lots here - the person gets ALL of the interrupted vacation period back).

    If your not showing to work without notice caused death or injury, you may go to jail.

    It's not psychotic, it's about civil responsibility.

    Also, you lose all leaving benefits like getting paid for all remaining vacation, 2 extra days of vacation just for seeking new job, right to unemployment, salary for the notice period etc.

  • JimM (unregistered) in reply to Thief^
    Thief^:
    JimM:
    On the other hand, the adverts that amuse me in the Uk are the ones that ask for Experience of "Apache, php, perl, ASP, VB, C#, .NET, MySQL, SQL, Oracle, IIS, Linux..." - it's highly unlikely that any job is ever going to want all of those skills, and if they do it suggests the managers are too incompetent to choose a single architecture to work with and you don't want to wrok there anyway!
    This could be because of some UK law that means that they have to place an advert even if they want someone's relative to take the job. So they place an advert so specific that only one person fits... (guess who)
    That is possible, although it doesn't apply to all classes of business. My usual take is that either the advert has been written by some goon in HR who knows nothing about tech and has just been told the company needs a new developer, so they've googled developer and put in everything they can find; or that it's not a real job at all (a lot of employment agencies invent completely non-existant but very desirable jobs as a means to attract CVs, which they then match against real jobs their clients are looking to fill. The more CVs on file, the more likely the agent can fill a job, the more money for the agency...)
  • Mark B (unregistered) in reply to Ken B

    I've actually been made redundant and then contracted out but the same company on the same job after my notice.

    I had bothered I could have taken them to an employment thingie but it just wasn't worth it.

  • GiantPanda (unregistered) in reply to Technical Recruiter
    Technical Recruiter:
    Can you imagine having to give a 4 month notice at your present employer...and then HAVE TO WORK THERE FOR THE NEXT 4 MONTHS!!

    Yes, sure. Employers here (Germany) tend not to see it as a personal insult when you quit. Gives you enough time to finish up, take your vacation time, ... The employer has a chance to find a qualified replacement and introduce him to the job before I'm gone.

    And if my employer wants to get rid of me and have me escorted from the premises (very unlikely unless I stole silver spoons or something) he still has to pay me for the next several months :-)

    Just another way of handling things.

Leave a comment on “U R NT QFD & Giving Notice”

Log In or post as a guest

Replying to comment #:

« Return to Article