• (cs) in reply to Atrophy
    Atrophy:
    Kind of like the guy who came to install our new network printer, and said we'd have to take our CUPS server out of the mix because "They don't make LIE-NUKS filters for this model."

    I waited until he left before putting the CUPS server back in... worked like a charm.

    And yet, I've pronounced Linux "ly-nux" that way every day of the twelve years I've been using it (and I do use it every day). I just cannot stand the sound of what seems to have become "official" pronunciation ("lin-nux") - it isn't correct anywhere, neither in Swedish-speaking countries (leee-nus) nor in English-speaking countries (ly-nus). And if someone (particularly some johnny-come-lately who's been using it all of six months, and will have abandoned it again in another twelve, but for now is the most dedicated Open Source fan EVAR!) wants to ignore the fact that I know what I'm doing (and can prove it) because I don't do groupthink when the group is obviously wrong, then screw them.

    Moreover, if I hear someone lambast someone else over something as insignificant as variant pronunciation, the overriding impression the lambaster will leave in my mind is of a person whose judgement is as worthless as their arrogance is insurmountable. It isn't important, it isn't significant, and harping on about it is just fucking juvenile.

  • (cs)

    I once got a cover letter from an applicant (barely passable qualifications at best) who actually spent a whole paragraph telling us how much he liked his leather pants (!) and would grant us the opportunity to interview him if we could assure him that our company dress code allowed him to wear his beloved leather pants to work. If not he did not want to be considered for a position.

    Not that we had a dress code much beyond "Don't come to work naked" but I still decided to take a pass on contacting him...

  • (cs) in reply to webhamster
    webhamster:
    I once got a cover letter from an applicant (barely passable qualifications at best) who actually spent a whole paragraph telling us how much he liked his leather pants (!) and would grant us the opportunity to interview him if we could assure him that our company dress code allowed him to wear his beloved leather pants to work. If not he did not want to be considered for a position.
    Wow... honestly, I think most workplaces, however liberal, would draw the line at fetishwear.

    Although I suppose a ball-gag would be a useful "do not disturb" symbol.

  • (cs) in reply to KattMan
    KattMan:
    Actually there is a char which means to burn.
    There's also a "char" which was mentioned in the 70's song, "White Knight" by The Citizens' Band. Flashed with the blue lights by a Georgia trooper for speeding, the trucker telling the story hears the "smokey" tell him by CB radio, "Pull over thar with your rockin' char."
    KattMan:
    But do notice he is being intentionally pedantic, and in doing so, appointing himself as arbiter. He then goes on to say that we accept the differences to get "beyond the pedantic and on to the sharing of vision." So with this he is actually in agreement. Who 'chars' how it is actually pronounced, lets move along and talk about tho more important things.
    Well said!
  • (cs) in reply to EvanED
    EvanED:
    Nico:
    It makes sense when you consider that regex is short for "regular expression".
    ze REEEL german!:
    Well, if you know that "Regex" ist just a short for "Regular Expression", it makes sense NOT to pronounce it with a "soft G" like in "giant".

    You wouldn't pronouce "Regular" that way, would you?

    Yeah, but enough things DON'T make sense that it's far from a foregone conclusion. "char" is short for "character" so, by that logic, should be pronounced almost like "care", but in my experience, both "car" and "char" (like charred wood) are more common.

    The one that irks me is when people pronounce GIF with a soft G, even though the G stands for Graphics, which is pronounced with a hard G. Yet for some reason I pronounce regex with a soft G. Go figure.

  • Zygo (unregistered) in reply to EvanED
    EvanED:
    BTW, I totally didn't expect this to turn into such a big discussion.

    I'm totally amazed that there's no sound files floating back and forth yet, in a flamew^H^H^H^H^H^Hbig discussion about regional differences in pronunciation. Not even links to Wikipedia, which has lots of them.

    When "Linux" was new enough to have big flamewars over its pronunciation, Linus produced two sound files, one in English, one in Swedish, both stating: "My name is Linus Torvalds, and I pronounce Linux 'Linux'". That act pretty much ended the debate, permanently and instantly, except among the trolls and the ignorant.

    Now, if we can get a recording of Brian or Dennis saying "char", we could shut up a lot of other people too...

    Other people's creations were not so well respected, and the creator's original desired pronunciation has long since disappeared into the footnotes of history. I've heard rumors that the guy who came up with SCSI wanted it pronounced like "sexy", a statement that I can't even type without laughing.

  • (cs) in reply to BrownHornet
    BrownHornet:
    EvanED:
    Nico:
    It makes sense when you consider that regex is short for "regular expression".
    ze REEEL german!:
    Well, if you know that "Regex" ist just a short for "Regular Expression", it makes sense NOT to pronounce it with a "soft G" like in "giant".

    You wouldn't pronouce "Regular" that way, would you?

    Yeah, but enough things DON'T make sense that it's far from a foregone conclusion. "char" is short for "character" so, by that logic, should be pronounced almost like "care", but in my experience, both "car" and "char" (like charred wood) are more common.

    The one that irks me is when people pronounce GIF with a soft G, even though the G stands for Graphics, which is pronounced with a hard G. Yet for some reason I pronounce regex with a soft G. Go figure.

    I'm the same way. Although I do use "var-car" I have no problem with someone who says "var-char". I think that it's just the way your brain processes something. For example, when I read articles about the Apollo program (space history junkie here) my brain still registers the rocket as "Saturn Vee" even though I KNOW it's "Saturn 5". I don't know why that happens.

  • (cs) in reply to operagost
    operagost:
    Atrophy:
    Kind of like the guy who came to install our new network printer, and said we'd have to take our CUPS server out of the mix because "They don't make LIE-NUKS filters for this model."
    So, how do you say Mr. Torvalds's first name?

    Lie-nuks is uncommon, but acceptable.

    Well, according to Linus (pronounced "Lie-nuss") in the movie Revolution OS, Linux is always pronounced with the I sounding like the one in "igloo".

  • (cs) in reply to gwenhwyfaer
    gwenhwyfaer:
    webhamster:
    I once got a cover letter from an applicant (barely passable qualifications at best) who actually spent a whole paragraph telling us how much he liked his leather pants (!) and would grant us the opportunity to interview him if we could assure him that our company dress code allowed him to wear his beloved leather pants to work. If not he did not want to be considered for a position.
    Wow... honestly, I think most workplaces, however liberal, would draw the line at fetishwear.

    Although I suppose a ball-gag would be a useful "do not disturb" symbol.

    I can think of a few former co-workers where that device would have been useful...

    But I don't know if this was fetishwear. I mean I don't know because I never actually saw him, but I don't think he was talking about assless chaps or something.

  • (cs) in reply to gwenhwyfaer
    gwenhwyfaer:
    Moreover, if I hear someone lambast someone else over something as insignificant as variant pronunciation, the overriding impression the lambaster will leave in my mind is of a person whose judgement is as worthless as their arrogance is insurmountable. It isn't important, it isn't significant, and harping on about it is just fucking juvenile.

    Settle down there, Champ... I hate groupthink too, and if you know your stuff when it comes to linux, it would show. I was merely pointing out that this printer guy clearly DID NOT know his linux stuff.

  • Zygo (unregistered) in reply to webhamster
    webhamster:
    For example, when I read articles about the Apollo program (space history junkie here) my brain still registers the rocket as "Saturn Vee" even though I KNOW it's "Saturn 5". I don't know why that happens.

    I'm stuck with mentally pronouncing the "Resource Acquisition Is Initialization" idiom as "are ay two". Every now and then it escapes the confines of my brain, and people have no idea what I'm talking about.

    "xevious"...OK, I obviously wasted my youth.

  • ptr2void (unregistered) in reply to curly e
    curly e:
    We had a guy who was an extremely good programmer, but was also too willing to help others....
    That guy was freakin' *brilliant*...he got rid of some dead weight for you!
  • rmg66 (unregistered) in reply to operagost
    operagost:
    whicker:
    I never understand these fake facades people create in an interview setting.
    That's overly redundant...

    Fake <> Facade

  • Frank W. Zammetti (unregistered) in reply to Khazwossname

    I'm not sure I see how it could be taken any other way then how I meant it, but that being said, if I were interviewing you and you said to me what you wrote here, that'd be just as good an answer as the correct one because it shows your thinking and paying attention, which is all that question is designed to do. I probably would have found some self-deprecating joke to make, because again, my goal with a question like that up-front is to loosen up the candidate so I can get answers that aren't the result of nerves, and to make sure they're paying attention in the first place, so you pass :)

  • Adam (unregistered) in reply to RobDude
    RobDude:
    So, on the first page - you know who I am, what I want (a job), a list of what I do, and my most recent/current employeer.

    Yes, because telling them you want a job is so necessary when you're sending them an application.

  • B.B. (unregistered) in reply to anon
    anon:
    TheRealFoo:
    If people can't spell correctly in their own resume, they can't spell when programming, either.

    So? In coding, spelling consistently matters, not spelling correctly.

    YOU!! So you're the one whose code I've been maintaining? If I have to mis-spell "mutlipyVecter" one more time I swear I'll scream.

  • (cs) in reply to anon
    anon:
    TheRealFoo:
    diaphanein:
    Not that I'm trying to be grammar/spelling police, by any means, but people, please.

    If people can't spell correctly in their own resume, they can't spell when programming, either.

    So? In coding, spelling consistently matters, not spelling correctly.

    Perhaps where private code is concerned. If you're making an API, then misspelled method names or class names makes you look pretty ignorant and sloppy. If the names are sloppy, I'm going to believe the coding is sloppy as well, and I will elect never to use your library, if I have a choice in the matter.

    And I'm not the only one who feels that way.

    And it's worth mentioning that this isn't 1985, and nowadays documentation is more important than the code itself, because it forms a contract. Misspellings make documentation harder for others to read.

  • (cs) in reply to VGR
    VGR:
    Perhaps where private code is concerned. If you're making an API, then misspelled method names or class names makes you look pretty ignorant and sloppy. If the names are sloppy, I'm going to believe the coding is sloppy as well, and I will elect never to use your library, if I have a choice in the matter.

    What if the API with the misspelled name is part of a standard?

  • (cs) in reply to Random832
    Random832:
    VGR:
    Perhaps where private code is concerned. If you're making an API, then misspelled method names or class names makes you look pretty ignorant and sloppy. If the names are sloppy, I'm going to believe the coding is sloppy as well, and I will elect never to use your library, if I have a choice in the matter.

    What if the API with the misspelled name is part of a standard?

    Or worse, what if a misspelling is part of a protocol?

  • (cs) in reply to Atrophy
    Atrophy:
    I hate groupthink too
    ... !
  • AH (unregistered) in reply to Frank W. Zammetti
    Frank W. Zammetti:

    "Really? You don't know where SERVER-side Javascript executes?" ...

    "Nope, I have not idea where SERVER-side Javascript executes".

    Well having already narrowed it down to the server, he probably figured you were asking about whether it ran in the JVM, or some sandbox, or via CGI or...

    Frank W. Zammetti:

    "What's the difference between the java command and the javac command?" (he was interviewing as a primarily Java-based web developer by the way). "Is HTTP stateful or stateless?"

    He couldn't answer any of them satisfactorily

    Then again, maybe not. :-(

  • Kuba (unregistered) in reply to Anon Fred
    Anon Fred:
    Bob N Freely:
    In the software industry, any work experience more than 5 years in the past is likely obsolete,

    oh geeze. . .

    Either way, I only want to see examples that show you are current on the required technologies, and that you are capable of working in the project environment.

    ha ha ha! That was funny!

    I couldn't agree more. Knuth's work on Sorting and Searching is no longer relevant, since obviously we don't use no tapes for our databases no more. Nowadays, PCs are fast enough to do bubble sort in every application. And who needs tree structures in memory, when you can store everything in XML and run it via XSLT to get what you want. I mean, man, searching? Database design? What for? You just XSLT directly from your XML data into the webpage with whatever the user wanted to see. That's how Google does it, right?

    Cheers!

  • Kuba (unregistered) in reply to TheRubyWarlock
    TheRubyWarlock:
    Claude Balls:
    As an interviewer, I would certainly be moving on to the next candidate. If the questions are being asked, they are probably due to information or lack of information on your resume. I'd place your resume into the circular file immediately - do you know what that means, or would you like to google it, or refresh yourself on the topic?

    If you notice, in my post I was not referring to the specific "Alvin" person since yes, what a static class is and managed/unmanaged code should be basic knowledge. I wouldn't hire someone like that, either.

    But you sound like exactly the kind of idiot, self-righteous manager who only looks for specific buzzwords and ignores everything else.

    There are limits to what is considered memorization and "specific buzzwords". This sounds like reductio ad absurdum to me. If I'm hiring for a C/C++ position and the guy/gal cannot write anything resembling what I asked for when all I ask for is to sort a list of ints, then I doubt they'll be able to code anything else without holding their hand all the time. If a C++ coding position applicant gives me a blank stare when asked about algorithms, he/she better realize that the interview is over, even if I don't play along any longer.

    A "hello world" is also something I'd expect someone applying for a C/C++ position to know how to write. I wouldn't care if they forgot the name of the header needed, all I care for is #include <header with printf.h> or #include <header with basic_ostream> or somesuch. Basic intelligence, or the ability to weasel yourself out of not knowing the particulars is something that they'll need in their daily work, so they'd better show it during the interview.

    Same goes for electronics/embedded development position: while I can forgive someone not recalling the exact equation for the cutoff frequency of say an LC filter (I don't think I remember it either), they should at least be able to describe (or draw) how the response looks like, and how it responds to changes in component values. It's about knowing the concepts and knowing your way.

    The article indicates that the person applying for the position was clearly lacking qualifications, and most likely was well aware of it too.

    Cheers!

  • wcsocks (unregistered) in reply to SM

    If it's that long... i wouldn't bother reading the first page

  • mikko (unregistered) in reply to Zygo

    -snip- Other people's creations were not so well respected, and the creator's original desired pronunciation has long since disappeared into the footnotes of history. I've heard rumors that the guy who came up with SCSI wanted it pronounced like "sexy", a statement that I can't even type without laughing. -/snip-

    Well, some people DO think that Scuzzy IS Sexy...

    mostly at 2:00AM when the bars are closing.

  • b0x0rz (unregistered)

    ok... i expect to receive a resume in a format tailored to the job application, not a default 6 page long one.

    if we need you to work with .net & mssql i don't want to read 4 pages of your php/nix/ipod design skills ;) etc...

    i expect a 1-1.5 pages of information that we are looking for and MAX. 0.5 pages about everything else, if you really want to write it.

    captcha: SANITARIUM, yeah thatz what it is

  • (cs) in reply to RogerN
    RogerN:
    Could you tell me the difference between a static and non-static class?

    According to the C# documentation, the "static" keyword cannot be applied to a class. Perhaps they meant to inquire about singletons?

    you might have looked it up in c# 1.0 documentation, it is allowed in C# 2.0

  • Steve (unregistered) in reply to diaphanein

    Practice what you preach buddy. "Sprint 2005", LOL!

    I find it very funny when people make the same mistakes they're throwing off on others for. Strikes me as a know it all.

  • Edward Royce (unregistered)

    Hmmmm.

    Quite a few people are giving the opinion that only the most recent work is valuable.

    Frankly I disagree a lot with this. One of the things that I've learned, the hard way usually, is what not to do and that's reflected in the years of experience in programming professionally. Another point is that many programming jobs don't exist in isolation. Sure the firm is looking for a C#/.NET programmer but they might also be looking for an experienced PL/SQL developer for backend Oracle work. If all you include is the "C#/.NET" on your resume but I include that and the PL/SQL on mine, who will get the job?

    shrug however way it works for you, as long as it works for you that's fine. Personally I prefer a more detailed resume that lists the technologies that I'm experienced with. I always include a summary on the first page so people can decide if they want to bother with the rest or not so perhaps that alleviates the issue with reading the 6 page resume.

    But in my career I've generally, on average, had to email my resume 3 times and wait 3 days between jobs. This isn't boasting, it's I believe a function of a detailed resume that gives people the detail they might want while presenting the summarized information they need.

  • AnotherAnon (unregistered) in reply to axarydax
    axarydax:
    RogerN:
    Could you tell me the difference between a static and non-static class?

    According to the C# documentation, the "static" keyword cannot be applied to a class. Perhaps they meant to inquire about singletons?

    you might have looked it up in c# 1.0 documentation, it is allowed in C# 2.0

    Like me, he may be working in both VB.Net and C#. The VB.Net equivalent to "static" is "Shared" and "Shared" cannot be applied to a class even in VB8.

  • Neerav (unregistered) in reply to my name is missing
    my name is missing:
    I would have asked something non-sensical and timed how long it took for him to give up on finding it online.

    When I've got the feeling someone is winging it in an interview, I ask them about inexistent stuff, like java 7 or stuff like that. J3EE was one that hooked many a phony in the past. "Yeah, I'm down with the j3ee stuff!".

  • Edward Royce (unregistered) in reply to Neerav
    Neerav:
    When I've got the feeling someone is winging it in an interview, I ask them about inexistent stuff, like java 7 or stuff like that. J3EE was one that hooked many a phony in the past. "Yeah, I'm down with the j3ee stuff!".

    Ok that's really funny. Evil as heck, but very funny.

  • (cs) in reply to Edward Royce
    Edward Royce:
    Quite a few people are giving the opinion that only the most recent work is valuable.
    Unfortunately this appears to be endemic; looking to get back into the field after a 3 year break, I've had a number of recruiters terminate the call abruptly when they realise that no, I'm not holding back some wonderful secret on my CV, I really haven't had a job for 3 years. It was most annoying with a Perl position; apparently, the fact that the platform hasn't changed in a decade or so has no bearing at all... not to mention that the most these sodding recruitroids know about Perl is that they get laughed at if they forget to omit the 'a'. *sigh*
  • angel (unregistered)

    Wow!that's hilarious..Anyway, i love my AM general oxygen sensor too much that I won't be selling my car anymore...huhuhu..

  • wtf (unregistered)

    The real WTF is that Brent didn't immediately marry Cynthia. I mean, c'mon - a chick that knows what managed and unmanaged code is, and probably a bunch of other computery things as well - that's hawt!

  • Edward Royce (unregistered) in reply to gwenhwyfaer
    gwenhwyfaer:
    Unfortunately this appears to be endemic; looking to get back into the field after a 3 year break, I've had a number of recruiters terminate the call abruptly when they realise that no, I'm not holding back some wonderful secret on my CV, I really haven't had a job for 3 years. ...

    Yeah that is irritating. I had to deal with that years ago when I'd work 9 months out of the year and then take the summer off. Finally I had to point out to one person that:

    A. Teachers take their summers off.

    B. College professors routinely take sabbaticals that extend for a year or more.

    For some reason there's a lot of secondary irritants in this career path.

  • Brent R. (the interviewer) (unregistered) in reply to wtf
    wtf:
    The real WTF is that Brent didn't immediately marry Cynthia. I mean, c'mon - a chick that knows what managed and unmanaged code is, and probably a bunch of other computery things as well - that's hawt!

    Unfortunately, that would require two divorces. But, she is attractive--former dancer in college who danced at half-time shows in football games.

  • Anonymous (unregistered) in reply to SomeCoder
    savar:
    For various reasons, but mainly because being a dick to people you don't know isn't a good way to do business.
    Once you've said you'll be in contact in a few weeks, not "being a dick" mandates that you be in contact in a few weeks.
  • BR 14 (unregistered) in reply to tyrannical

    Actually, Sequel was a language that preceded SQL. It wasn't quite good enough. Out of respect to Sequel, I pronounce SQL S-Q-L.

  • Worst.Interview.Ever. (unregistered)

    Those are the lamest evaluation questions.

    Suppose Alvin learned "C# for Dummies" off by heart. He could in a heart beat regurgitate the relevant information. But how would that knowing what a static class is or what managed vs unmanaged code is help him solve technical problems?

    Alvin could very well be a great resource but you've eliminated him right up front by posing questions which are: a) environment specific and bear no relevance to the actual process of tackling a problem: planning, approach, b) can be googled by a layman in 2 minutes c) completely irrelevant in evaluating someone's ability to be a good programmer d) are about fashionable trends in the industry which could very well disappear in the next years e) are about something a good developer can educated him/herself on in less than an hour

    It could very well be that Alvin is genuinely a completely useless duchebag of a developer but that is certainly not evident based on the answers he gave to the questions you posed. Conversely he could be brilliant, but again the answers he gave won't tell you that either.

    All you found out from the answers he gave to each of those is that he doesn't know answer and he's so desperate for a job he won't admit it.

    And don't laugh at people who are not Microsoft savvy. That's both rude and sad. I bet you wouldn't get too far in Mac interview. Or an IBM one. The field is way too wide and deep for everyone to know everything.

  • Jerry (unregistered) in reply to Edward Royce
    Edward Royce:
    ... I figure anything older than 20 years ago is sufficiently obsolete that nobody is going to care. ...

    This http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythical_man_month is more than 30 years old and still applies ...

  • Edward Royce (unregistered) in reply to Jerry
    Jerry:
    This http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythical_man_month is more than 30 years old and still applies ...

    Ok smart guy. Nobody is going to care about anything I did 20 years ago.

    :):)

  • (cs) in reply to Stephen Harris

    I'm even worse off than the guy you interviewed. I maintain Solaris servers that run Oracle databases, and I have no idea how to tune Solaris for Oracle, as it was already installed when I started my job. I didn't even know how to shut down a Solaris server when I started.

  • Beaver (unregistered) in reply to Iceman

    Uh, what about CHAR? You are supposed to pronounce it 'Care', like in 'Care Bears'. But I say 'Char', like charred meat. And what about VARCHAR2? Var-CARE-Too or Var-Char-too?

    And what about MS SQL Server being called 'SQL'. This is widespread.

  • Beaver (unregistered) in reply to Kuba

    I disagree with you, Mr. Fred! Donald Knuth is always relevant - he is a brilliant and clever man with many mathematical discoveries to his credit. His 'Sorting and Searching' is worth reading (except the Mix language)

  • (cs) in reply to Kuba
    Kuba:
    TheRubyWarlock:
    Claude Balls:
    As an interviewer, I would certainly be moving on to the next candidate. If the questions are being asked, they are probably due to information or lack of information on your resume. I'd place your resume into the circular file immediately - do you know what that means, or would you like to google it, or refresh yourself on the topic?

    If you notice, in my post I was not referring to the specific "Alvin" person since yes, what a static class is and managed/unmanaged code should be basic knowledge. I wouldn't hire someone like that, either.

    But you sound like exactly the kind of idiot, self-righteous manager who only looks for specific buzzwords and ignores everything else.

    There are limits to what is considered memorization and "specific buzzwords". This sounds like reductio ad absurdum to me. If I'm hiring for a C/C++ position and the guy/gal cannot write anything resembling what I asked for when all I ask for is to sort a list of ints, then I doubt they'll be able to code anything else without holding their hand all the time. If a C++ coding position applicant gives me a blank stare when asked about algorithms, he/she better realize that the interview is over, even if I don't play along any longer.

    A "hello world" is also something I'd expect someone applying for a C/C++ position to know how to write. I wouldn't care if they forgot the name of the header needed, all I care for is #include <header with printf.h> or #include <header with basic_ostream> or somesuch. Basic intelligence, or the ability to weasel yourself out of not knowing the particulars is something that they'll need in their daily work, so they'd better show it during the interview.

    Same goes for electronics/embedded development position: while I can forgive someone not recalling the exact equation for the cutoff frequency of say an LC filter (I don't think I remember it either), they should at least be able to describe (or draw) how the response looks like, and how it responds to changes in component values. It's about knowing the concepts and knowing your way.

    The article indicates that the person applying for the position was clearly lacking qualifications, and most likely was well aware of it too.

    Cheers!

    Are you absolutely, absolutely, sure that you don't want to ask how many pirates make five, or any of the other magnificent questions contained in "How Would You Move Mount Fuji?"

    I mean, just interviewing people on a gut-feel that they have a clue, have done it before (maybe three or four years ago, and they've forgotten the details), and can look it up efficiently on Google couldn't possibly be sensible.

    This thing about not hiring God, or God's right-hand man ... I'm sorry, but you've just got to be wrong.

  • (cs) in reply to unklegwar
    unklegwar:
    There seem to be a lot of variations on proper resume length. I always understood that the very longest acceptable resume was 2 pages and that's only for someone with a long career.

    If you have 6 pages, then you have a problem with focus.

    If you have more than 1, and haven't been in a relevant field for more than 8 or 10 years, it's too long.

    I'm in for 15 years now, and I have a resume template that has EVERYTHING on it, that's 2 pages. The TRICK is, to take the time to study the position you are applying for and tailor the resume to fit it. It's not dishonest, it's focus. If you know LOGO, and the job doesn't require that, why waste the space and the time? You don't need to include everything you know, only the relevant things.

    A decent interview will ask you about things you didn't list, if they are important and reasonably related to the position and other skills you have (you know VB.NET, ever used C#? I see you know XML, how's your XPATH?).

    I'm not going to swim through pages and pages of someone's ego to MAYBE find what I need. If it's not on page 1, I don't go to page 2. If page 1 hits a lot of points, then I'll see what else is there as a bonus.

    Actually, this post, and many like it, have been very informative.

    I've never noticed the difference between the British (and for all I know, European) "Curriculum Vitae" and the American "Resume" before. CVs tend to expand with the years, to several pages. (Mine is around six pages long -- with editing.) Resumes are, well, resumes -- two pages is good enough for a summary.

    Being bi-pondal, I've tended to interchange the two labels and just submit the CV, re-labelled as a resume.

    I don't, in all honesty, see what any rational interviewer could glean out of two pages, however. Let alone a "head hunter" (and I think we're all deluding ourselves here. The only sort of head-hunter who would target programmers would come from either Borneo or Papua New Guinea) or a recruitment "consultant."

    Me, I just summarise all my alleged skills as bullet-points in the first half a page, and then cross-reference them in each job-spec over the last twenty years for the rest of the interminably boring crap.

    If the interviewer is too retarded to read anything more than the headlines in the sports pages of their State newspaper, then I figure that we are Not Meant To Be.

  • Kuba (unregistered) in reply to real_aardvark
    real_aardvark:
    Kuba:
    TheRubyWarlock:
    If you notice, in my post I was not referring to the specific "Alvin" person since yes, what a static class is and managed/unmanaged code should be basic knowledge. I wouldn't hire someone like that, either.

    But you sound like exactly the kind of idiot, self-righteous manager who only looks for specific buzzwords and ignores everything else.

    There are limits to what is considered memorization and "specific buzzwords". This sounds like reductio ad absurdum to me. If I'm hiring for a C/C++ position and the guy/gal cannot write anything resembling what I asked for when all I ask for is to sort a list of ints, then I doubt they'll be able to code anything else without holding their hand all the time. If a C++ coding position applicant gives me a blank stare when asked about algorithms, he/she better realize that the interview is over, even if I don't play along any longer.

    A "hello world" is also something I'd expect someone applying for a C/C++ position to know how to write. I wouldn't care if they forgot the name of the header needed, all I care for is #include <header with printf.h> or #include <header with basic_ostream> or somesuch. Basic intelligence, or the ability to weasel yourself out of not knowing the particulars is something that they'll need in their daily work, so they'd better show it during the interview.

    Same goes for electronics/embedded development position: while I can forgive someone not recalling the exact equation for the cutoff frequency of say an LC filter (I don't think I remember it either), they should at least be able to describe (or draw) how the response looks like, and how it responds to changes in component values. It's about knowing the concepts and knowing your way.

    The article indicates that the person applying for the position was clearly lacking qualifications, and most likely was well aware of it too.

    Cheers!

    Are you absolutely, absolutely, sure that you don't want to ask how many pirates make five, or any of the other magnificent questions contained in "How Would You Move Mount Fuji?"

    I mean, just interviewing people on a gut-feel that they have a clue, have done it before (maybe three or four years ago, and they've forgotten the details), and can look it up efficiently on Google couldn't possibly be sensible.

    This thing about not hiring God, or God's right-hand man ... I'm sorry, but you've just got to be wrong.

    What you're advocating is a C/C++ programmer who doesn't know how to pogram. No more, no less. I've gone twice with the "they must know what they are doing" feel, and I won't repeat that mistake ever again. People who can't program, yet end up hired for programming positions, are deadweights. No more, no less, unless they are brilliant and will just learn their skills as they go. I can usually smell brilliant people from a mile away. Most programmers I had to deal with, until recently, were in the not-close-to-being-brilliant category, and poor programmers at that.

    What you're used to is non-performance and uselessness. I'm sorry for the company for which you'd be hiring, as they'd bleed money to death.

    I don't know how to get it across to you, but in usual day-to-day job of actually programming (you know, a C/C++ programmer job?), the "programmer" will be expected to use basic I/O, iteration, algorithms, loops, and lots of other language features on a daily, no, hourly basis. They'll be expected to have to deal with stuff like API issues (learning foreign APIs and using them), some design issues, algorithmic complexity, and so on. Heck, they'll have to deal with bugs in code they have no access to, so they'll have to troubleshoot, and that takes quite a bit intelligence to work. They'd better know how to iterate a list and swap its elements, goddamnit.

    I can't fathom how one can be even a semi-functional programmer if the basic tools of the trade aren't his/her second nature. Not knowing how to write something that resembles Hello, World is like having a maintenance worker who has to google whenever it's time to use a screwdriver.

    The job calls for things that are orders of magnitude more complex than a hello, world or a trivial bubble sort. Don't even get me started with most, even semi-decent programmers knowing zero about binary arithmetic and basic (like two-three classes worth) of numerical methods. Every few weeks I deal with bugs in externally supplied libraries where people will, for example, do the following with performance counters on windows (this is pseudocode, but you get the gist):

    long timeInMicroseconds(void) { long freq = QueryPerformanceFrequency(); long ticks = QueryPerformanceCounter(); return (tick*1000/freq)*1000; }

    A microsecond is a millionth of a second.

    Now, guss how accurate the darn result will be.

    Cheers, Kuba

  • Kuba (unregistered) in reply to real_aardvark
    real_aardvark:
    Kuba:
    A "hello world" is also something I'd expect someone applying for a C/C++ position to know how to write. I wouldn't care if they forgot the name of the header needed, all I care for is #include <header with printf.h> or #include <header with basic_ostream> or somesuch. Basic intelligence, or the ability to weasel yourself out of not knowing the particulars is something that they'll need in their daily work, so they'd better show it during the interview.

    Same goes for electronics/embedded development position: while I can forgive someone not recalling the exact equation for the cutoff frequency of say an LC filter (I don't think I remember it either), they should at least be able to describe (or draw) how the response looks like, and how it responds to changes in component values. It's about knowing the concepts and knowing your way.

    Are you absolutely, absolutely, sure that you don't want to ask how many pirates make five, or any of the other magnificent questions contained in "How Would You Move Mount Fuji?"

    I despise "trick" questions. I rarely ask anything that's beyond 1st year of basic CS college curriculum. I never care about buzzwords nor about any particular technologies. I don't care about whether they know library XYZ even if we use it, as if they are decent enough, they'll pick it up quickly enough. If they didn't or couldn't pick up the bascs, they won't ever be good at non-basic things.

    I usually never ask questions (not even general ones, like "what does X library do") about libraries that are external to the language. When I ask about what's in the language [standard], I ask stuff that doesn't require remembering any names, just concepts. Something that someone with any experience will have to know by heart. I always openly state that I don't care if they leave out the std::, or if they insist that the standard output stream is called out. As long as they can tell me what given symbol is supposed to mean, they are OK.

    I usually ask them how they'd implement a list of say ints, and then sort it, or find an element in it. I tell them that they can use either C or C++ in the solution, and they can use as much (or as little) of what they think they remember of the standard library as they like. If they choose C++ to solve it in, I explicitly tell them to ask me for any function they think they may possibly need -- if it exists, I'll give them the signature and whatnot. If they don't remember if a "function doing x exists", they are supposed to ask too. Basically, they only need to show me the solution and problem solving approach: they have the intelligent, instantenous lookup of reference info next to them: me. I also tell them that it's not timed, and they can spend as much time asking me questions as they want.

    I fully expect a semi-decent C++ programmer who chose to show off his C++ skills to write out the problem using std::list and std::sort, and a line which reads "here you initialize the list contents". Three lines total for a solution, even if they make stuff up. That's good enough. I.e. they implement nothing, just remember their tools of the trade. If they don't remember any standard containers and/or standard algorithms, they are free to implement something that will work for a list of ints. It's like a letter-page worth of stuff, hand written with lots of whitespace and room to cross stuff out.

    If someone cannot write semi-correct C/C++ syntax, then I'm at loss how they can claim 2+ years of programming experience. No, I don't ask them to write a freaking function pointer prototype.

    All of the questions that I ask them were the questions I'd answer, in Pascal (not knowing C back then), at the age of 14. I didn't consider myself anything beyond a hobbyist back then, and I consider the applicable knowledge level to be that of a hobbyist or a decent 1-st year student -- not even that of a professional claiming multiple years of experience.

    I feel sorry for people who have worked in C/C++ for 5+ years and cannot write hello world even with completely made up function/class/instance names. Yes, they are told what "hello world" means.

    I can't get over the fact that someone of sane mind might disagree here.

  • Steve Heller (unregistered) in reply to Dave Krause

    My resume is 8 pages (with proper spelling and grammar), and I haven't had much trouble finding work except for right after the .com crash. It's organized so that a recruiter can tell right away whether I'm a possible match, and then gives him more detail if I am.

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