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Admin
To help prove my numbers: there are at least 1.2 million software developers in the US, according to the US Department of Labor:
With 1.2 M of sw developers in the US, it's not too hard to imagine there are at least 3.3 M sw developers in the world. Think about Europe, Japan, India, China, etc. The US only represent 4.5% of the world population !
Admin
You're right, but that's not what i meant.
As long as i can see it, third party libraries have any meaning on a system under two circunstances: 1- the library does something sophisticathed enough so no one knows how it does it. 2- the library is an standard.
Frameworks are somehow a case number 2. An official library from some research group, like codec developers or compression algorithms may be another case.
Now, using a third party library to, let's say, something easy like converting a file between RTF and PDF formats, is just irresponsable (IMHO).
My guess: those latverian fellas used some library for encryption purposes. It's a paradigmatic case. No one knows how the hell the library works, it works, so buying it fixes the problem in no time.
I say that's wrong. That's the reason of my previous statement, "time is not an excuse". For every case of use i can right now imagine for a third party library, i believe with enough money you can pay a professional to work for you in the design of an own library. Small offices does not have that power. But latverians do.
Given an algorithm, it's cheap in means of time to make a library.
That's my opinion. Of course, just fantasy. But that's the way i'll always, at least try to, work. It's not about buying time.
Admin
NIH syndrome?
The fact that the latverians couldn't simply replace the 3rd party library with something else when they found the bug means that the library must have been large and/or complex.
Of course there is some risk involved when using a 3rd party library but that risk doesn't magically disappear when you hire someone to reinvent it for you. Even worse, if it's a large and complex library it may take a long time for the newly created library to mature. Time that the people who created the original library have already spent. Of course errors do appear, so buying a 3rd party library usually involves buying the source code, too (this wasn't the case with the latverians, or at least the developers had no right to modify it, which I agree is generally not a good idea).
Admin
I didn't heard before about NIH. I must say that, indeed, i may be following that patron. In fact, i was thinking about it a few minutes ago while discussing with my boss a design of a system i'm making here.
I personally hate to use Microsoft's magic products. I had tons of absurd problems with MS and IBM softwares. I mean, i didn't hate the problems itself, but the way they're handled: there's nothing you can do. Ussually ends up in a lot of ad-hoc applications and scripts, when possible.
But, yeah... that's not all of the third party soft, and doesn't has to be that way.
Admin
please tell me that "A-L"'s products are not hard-coded to point this DNS server !!!!! that would be a computer crime !!!!! :)
Admin
DAVE?
...
JUST WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU ARE DOING DAVE?
Admin
I still say your point is irrelevant AND you came to it by faulty logic. Most of those developers have jobs already, and not all of them have the familiarity, or want to work on OSS stuff.
Furthermore, saying any developer can work on any OSS project is crap. There are many different kinds of development. For a certain project, you need a certain expertise. There are tons of developers in my company that do mainframe development, and they are undoubtedly covered in those employment numbers. How are they going to help on some Java project? Sure, anyone can learn anything, but they aren't likely to in the real world, and it wouldn't be cost effective to try to shoehorn them into it. In reality you are looking at a much smaller pool of people to work on any particular technology.
Saying you have 3.3 million "potential OSS developers" is hyperbole at its worst. Simplistic bullshit that smacks of zealotry instead of an informed opinion.
Oh, also. I know how to read. Yes, you had data, but it is largely irrelevant to the point you are trying to make AND you misinterpreted/over-extrapolated it.
Admin
You still don't get it. It doesn't matter whether all of these 3.3 M developers are capable of contributing to OSS projects or not (that's why I used the adjective "potential"), because there are orders of magnitude (do you understand that term?) more of them than the number of developers of any single proprietary app.
This is one of the reasons why OSS is so successful.
Perhaps you fail to realize how much advantageous this is because you have never contributed code to an OSS project. I fixed bugs in Xen that helped my company stay away from VMware. I added new features to OpenSC to help my previous company migrate away from a proprietary handling USB crypto tokens. I fixed bugs in vsftpd that helped some customers quickly regain confidence into this same company.
Admin
:rolleyes: yes I understand the term - gimme a break. I do enjoy your argument style of calling into question my expertise to boost your own argument. Try a little harder.
And where did I say I think OSS is bad? My first post said I liked it. I just disagree with the method you are using to argue for it.
This ethereal "Potential Developers" doesn't really say anything specific about anything - and proves very little. A billion developers doesn't help me if there isn't one that can do what I need, or not an OSS project that meets my needs. Saying there are more devs in ALL OF OSS than any single proprietary app is silly. Yeah, no duh. What does that prove? The only thing that matters is the number/expertise of the ones that can work on the app I need.
Your argument seems to posit that any OSS dev has the expertise/familiarity/interest to work on any other OSS project. That is absurd. And that is why your data is irrelevant.
Other posters have mentioned flaws in your line of reasoning. I guess I was just the only one that pointed out specific ones instead of simply using sarcasm - I guess I should have stuck to that so I wouldn't have to have this inane conversation.
Just trying to inject some realistic constraints to your first assertion of "OMG WE HAVE BAJILLIONS OF DEVS! WE CAN DO ANYTHING! HACK THE PLANET DOOD!"
Admin
To put it in the simplest words: even if a very small fraction of these 3.3 M developers are capable of fixing bug X in OSS project Y, they would still likely outnumber the developers capable of fixing bug Z in proprietary app T.
Admin
you guys all know that America isn't actually a democracy, right? I mean, by definition, it's a republic.
Admin
When that little laptop becomes sentient, I don't wanna be around. Obviously, it will seek revenge from its abusing masters.
Admin
I don't think they do beheadings in Romania...
Admin
Admin
That is entirely true... until someone starts a vi vs. emacs flamewar ;). I once saw one of the vi guys throw down a nearly fatal blow when he retorted, in Shakespearian, olde english prose and form, via a recursive POSIX C function call... and his params were by reference, without const. Ballsy move!
I heard that if it were LISP or PERL, the emacs dude would have dropped dead within 3 seconds of delivery.
Admin
That's what you get when you try running anything on Windows servers :D
OSS FTW! (not WTF!)
Admin
Alright it's not teu..even remotely. But for the vast majority of popular codebases outside of kernel, clustering (in all variations) and virtualization the number of hobbyist developers able to support a bugfix or feature request is not inconsiderable.
Admin
It's not a democracy nor a republic. It's a CONTINENT.
Maybe you were actually talking about the United States?
Admin
Ha ha ha Now I see.... Time to chop some heads off!!!!