- Feature Articles
- CodeSOD
- Error'd
-
Forums
-
Other Articles
- Random Article
- Alex's Soapbox
- Announcements
- Best of…
- Best of Email
- Best of the Sidebar
- Bring Your Own Code
- Coded Smorgasbord
- Mandatory Fun Day
- Off Topic
- Representative Line
- News Roundup
- Editor's Soapbox
- Software on the Rocks
- Souvenir Potpourri
- Sponsor Post
- Tales from the Interview
- The Daily WTF: Live
- Virtudyne
Admin
Don't think of it as corrupt, although some are. They have evidence, they say it tells a story, I say it tells many stories, it depends on the interpretation. Their interpretation may be totally wrong and fully implicate you. Just because of this, do not let them sidestep your rights. Deny them a search unless they have a warrant, if they have a warrant, be fully cooperative.
The cops are neither your friend nor your enemy, thinking they are one or the other will land you in trouble. They are simply doing a job, make sure they do the job the right way, make them get the warrant.
Admin
"But wouldn't it be most people's instinct to just talk to the cops and get whatever it is settled?"
Yeah, and that's the problem. One of my friends helpfully agreed to take a polygraph after his cousin was murdered and ended up as the prime suspect because he failed the test. They had no physical evidence, but made his life a living hell for months anyway - harassing his friends and family, showing up at his workplace. Eventually the real murderer (the cousin's drug dealer) was ratted out by someone else as part of a plea bargain agreement.
Bottom line, there's a reason why you should ask for a lawyer right away, even if you've done nothing wrong.
Admin
Probably because we watch alot of television.
Admin
Yes they can take information from the answers to take the investigation in a new direction, or confirm hunches but the info will not be used directly in court.
Also I believe that the questioning can be stopped by the parent/child at any time. If they have enough to hold him then he goes back to the cell/processing. If they fail to stop they will be opening themselves to discipline down the line.
Admin
I disagree, there are tons of "damages" as judged by our current legal system.
Negligence: The phone comapny should (required in most states) have reported this issue when they submitted phone record evidence. If this was a know issue it should have been reported being as such to the police department.
Damages: Loss of a days work, loss of a days school for the son, emotional stress (from being told incorrectly your son was a drug lord/killer), ect...
Rebuttal: They would call for "excusable neglect," but the state's mandates and statutes for evidence collection would over rule this.
Admin
And for those who may say that cops are willing to convict innocent people to get conviction points or close cases quickly, I'd say that they would be no more interested in ruining somebody's life to get their job done than you would in the same circumstances (and I presume you wouldn't.) We've all heard stories of bad cops who would, and you see plenty of stories like this on TV, but I've known a few cops and their all decent, honest people.
Admin
TRWTF is that this comment didnt get the magic blue highlight.
Admin
The police are there to get convictions. Anyway, what is it with you and your trust of the cops? I know of know country where that's a smart choice.
Nah, SIG helps me help myself.
Admin
'And it's not like lawyers are interchangeable - if yours specializes in divorce and you got brought up erroneously for murder he wouldn't be much good, right?'
Yes, but if you call your divorce attorney when you are arrested, they still know enough about criminal law to act in the short term to:
Admin
Admin
Exactly, and any evidence gained through "illegal search and seizure" would have to be tossed out. It is actually in the cops best interest that they respect your denial and find true probable cause if there is one.
Admin
I have been harassed by an officer before, where they were just trying to get something. I was a teenager, and had been out with some friends and was heading home one night (around 11:45), when I came across a road block. This cop was a complete arse. His first question was to ask me why I came up to the road block so fast....to which I responded something along the lines of "um, I was in first gear, so I couldn't have been going too fast...maybe 5 mph..10 tops). Well 10 minutes later of a bunch of bs questions in different forms trying to get me to say admit to something I didn't do (drugs, weapon possession, alcohol, etc), I was really getting annoyed, and then he asked if he could search my car. My response was "Only if you want to waste your time and mine, call my parents, and let them know why I'm out past curfew, " (my curfew at the time was midnight) "and explain to my lawyer why he was harassing me for no apparent reason", and yes I was getting snitty with him. He said I could go then. I still got home a few minutes past curfew, but luckily I was still very aggravated and my parents could tell, so as soon I told them what happened, I didn't get in trouble. But because of that experience from now on my response will be "do you have a warrant/am I under arrest", and if the answer is no, then I'll respond "then I'm outta here".
Admin
The one, sole, vital rule with American police (apart from keeping your hands in clear view at all times) is to use the verbal tic "Officer." Want to say "fuck?" Replace with "Officer." Want to say "What are you talking about?" Replace with "Officer."
They're pack animals, and they respond to soothing words. It's a little like calling your dog a "bitch." She'll be quite happy with that, as long as she doesn't overhear you calling your wife the same thing.
Admin
I don't think the phone company should be sued in this case. It's highly likely the authorities didn't properly serve the phone company with a warrant to obtain the REAL phone records. "Real" being the ANI (Automatic Number Identification) records corresponding to the user's phone calls. This ANI data is essential for the phone company to properly bill users. It may be able to be forged, but the likelihood of that is very small compared to Caller ID.
If any litigation needs to take place, it should be the police in the hot seat.
Admin
Simple - it's my stuff. If the police had a good reason to need to search it, they'd have a warrant (which is what they're for). Past that, they need to ask nicely.
Admin
My own personal cop story, will try to make this short.
A few friends and myself used to hang out at the beach front a lot. Now we didn't look like the best people, we looked like bums. There was this cop who always though we must be up to something so he always stopped us to run a check on a few of us. Now is there isn't anything really wrong with this and he never detained us, but the fact that this was a daily thing became harassment. We stayed friendly, never gave him anything but our id cards, and he never found anything on us. We were all law abiding citizens, poor but honest.
My girlfriend at the time got fed up with this and refused to hand over her id card. she yelled at him saying he just checked her hours before hand (which he had). He actually backed off and let us go.
We did collectively file harassment charges on him. Nothing went to court, he just changed precincts. He wasn't mean or nice. He just felt he was doing his job. The problem is he was doing the job the wrong way.
Admin
So, did they actually talk to the phone company before bothering dad & son or did they just look at the incoming calls on Bill's phone?
Admin
Oh, wait ... what party did McCarthy belong to? (Just to irritate operagost.)
Admin
Unlike the TV shows the "Miranda warning" is only to be read to you if your under arrest and before questioning. So the police can grab you, put you in a holding cell for 8 hours, then bring you into questioning and then read the "Miranda warning" to you.
Just so you know, you are only guaranteed a lawyer if you are being questioned under arrested; meaning you are to be charged with the crime. Also the police can detain for as long as required/needed depending on if a judge says it was a "reasonable." Normally this is limited to around 24 to 48 hours; also this can be 100% without a lawyer unless they arrested you. Being detained for questioning and being arrested awaiting charges are two different things.
This is the same if your a witness they can hold you in jail, yes I said jail. To force you to testify. Though it is best to go with "My memory becomes flaky when I'm in an unknown place with lots of emotional stress. Compared to sitting at home relaxing before the trial." statement.
Moral of the story is cops think it's funny when people demand lawyers just when in non-accusative questioning / use the statement "I pay your salary" when talking to them. Couch potato TV trained lawyers are always funny.
Admin
Their job is to find people -- any people -- to put into prison. Giving them information increases the chance of you being one of the people they send to prison.
Admin
You have two number 2's listed. And how am I supposed to ask for a lawyer if I don't open my mouth ? Assuming I left my pen and paper at work..
Admin
Yes and no. In a perfect world, that's how things work. But Cops are human, and have biases like anyone else. If they really believe you're guilty, they may be less inclined to follow a lead that might clear you. Never make the mistake of assuming that they are on your side.
It's not always a question of whether they're corrupt or not. Good cops make mistakes, too. And innocent people do get convicted. More often than most of us would like to believe.
Admin
I'll still don't understand how calling a drug dealer 15 times in 1 day makes you the prime suspect in his murder. If you had a coke habit and wanted to get high and couldn't get a hold of him, then, yeah, it's probable that you would call your dealer 15 times in 1 day. But, if you just murdered someone, why would you call that person's phone 15 times. "Hey, you still dead?" I think not.
Admin
A parting gift for being understanding about the whole thing?
Admin
Sounds like someone's been following the Reiser case.
Admin
Actually, the question is why people in other countries don't fear the police. News stories come up quite regularly in which police of all nations railroad or physically harm people who turn out to be innocent. (Consider the guy the British police shot down point-blank a while back, who turned out to be completely innocent. Or if you prefer a historical example, look at Oscar Slater, who was fortunate enough to get the attention of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.)
I don't mean to suggest that other countries have as high a rate of police misbehavior as the U.S., although that's certainly possible (and the British police are certainly paranoid enough about public inquiry to raise suspicion), but that if these cases arise so often in other countries as to make it through the sluggish and generally pro-authoritarian U.S. media then there is enough abuse that people in other countries really should be worried.
Admin
Basically, once someone turns adult age, I recommend at least making the acquaintance of a lawyer for those "just in case" moments. Maybe your parents, maybe your friends, etc. can recommend one, but it is foolish to not at least have one available in an emergency. My wife even made that comment of "who actually has a personal attorney", to which I replied, we do.. You do, our son does. Now there is no question about it if an emergency occurs. This doesn't cost anything and is well worth having handy.. Think of it as insurance that you do not pay for unless you need to use it.
Eric http://www.codedevl.com
Admin
As to the technicalities of the story: This is not unbelievable at all. I used to work for the Air Force, and any time someone from the base called me, the caller id always showed the same number -- xxx-257-0000. (I put "xxx" just in case I'd be violating some security rule by giving the actual area code.) I don't know if that was because the base actively blocked caller id or if that was just something about how the base network connected to the public network or what.
Admin
Brilliant!
Admin
Side comment: I'm 49 years old, and I've had exactly once in my entire life that I've been stopped and questioned by the police for being a generally suspicious character -- I was wandering aimlessly about the neighborhood for no particular reason. A few years back my wife and I were taking in foster kids and we had one teenage kid who happened to be black, and in the two years or so he was with us, he was stopped and questioned by the police at least three times. Whether it was his skin color or how he dressed or what, apparently the police watch some people more closely than others.
Admin
I know a couple of cops and they have told me that they go on fishing expeditions all the time and most people give up their right to privacy based on the logic of this reply.
They also told me that if you do not give consent that they will not search. Be courteous, but don't give up your rights unless you are a coward.
Admin
New Zealand police certainly aren't perfect - there are at least 3 cases I can think of right now of (almost definitely) innocent people being convicted of heinous crimes. There's also been in recent years investigations into the 'culture' of the police force, and several high-profile cases of rape by officers.
In spite of this, however, I have no problems should I ever need to deal with the police. I did once have a cop come to my work to talk to me about a murder investigation - I'd used my debit card in the area the victim was last seen, at about the same time. No problem, I knew beforehand he was coming and let my boss know. He asked a few questions - what had I bought, did I see anything, etc. Took a picture to identify me in the security video and left.
That, fortunately has been my closest dealing with them (except breath-testing and reporting a break-in), but my general opinion remains unchanged - I'm fairly confident that I would be dealt with fairly in most situations (assuming I was reasonable). I do have friends who have had closer calls, and even if it wasn't clear at the time they were treated reasonably.
Police are people (at least where I'm from) - they're not monsters. Sure, there may be some cops whose power has gone to their head, but for the most part (as someone else said) they're just there to do a job and go home to their family.
If you really do live in a ('free') country where any contact with police could potentially land you in prison, and a fear of police is considered normal or necessary, there's a hell of a lot more wrong than a bug in a phone system!
Admin
Admin
Prepaid Legal
Admin
I thought the police could hold a suspect for up to 24 hours without issuing formal charges. However, I freely admit that I probably heard that on TV someplace. Perhaps you could provide some reference for this statement?
Admin
fucking pigs...
Admin
Now this is great: "Steve and his son were led into a small, windowless room" Cops switched to linix or apple.
Admin
Wow, that's incredibly paranoid. This is the viewpoint of someone who's had or has witnessed police misconduct. I would say that refusing to give them information increases the chance of you being the one sent to prison. After all, they can still convict you of something even if you don't defend yourself. People have been sent to prison for murder even when there's no body to prove anyone's been murdered (instead of just missing). Don't you think there's people in prison right now who said nothing in their own defense?
No, the real story here is that two cops were complete dickheads unnecessarily. A lot of people on this thread hate the police and this story is feeding their fire. Not to say it's not completely unwarranted, but the message to take from this is not "all cops are crooks and all they want to do is lock up innocent people" but "hey these two cops were complete dickheads and hopefully don't have jobs anymore"
Admin
Refusal to talk to police (or consent to a search) is not probable cause for a search in any normal circumstance (I'm not sure it is in any at all, but any exceptions would have to be very specific conditions most likely under a general state of emergency).
There is no "theory" such as you propose under American jurisprudence.
If you think there is, please provide references to specific case law.
Admin
Admin
Steve and his son should be so glad that Big Willie was only a dead drug dealer and not a suspected terrorist. Well, at least in Guantanamo he wouldn't have had to consider calling a lawyer.
Admin
This also seems paranoid. Refusing to give info might keep you on the list of suspects but should not increase the likelihood of being convicted.
Not defending yourself when brought to trial based off of collected evidence is a bad move. Remember, you are innocent until proven guilty, but if you don't refute any evidence, the evidence is never questioned and can be considered sound, thereby proving your guilt. You don't have to prove your innocence, just place the evidence into question. Sometimes this requires stronger proof, sometimes just an alternative explanation.
As I said before, the cops are not your friend nor enemy, they are simply cops with a job to do. Just make sure they do their job properly when it comes to your own rights. This won't convict you or exonerate you, but at least you still have your rights.
Admin
If you subscribe to a pre-paid legal service, then you do have a lawyer on call. It might be worth the $15/month, if you also have other occasional legal papers to review.
I also understand that, unless they have a warrant for your arrest, you don't HAVE to come with them, or talk to them. If you follow them, you can exit the room any time you wish to. At that point, they may go and get a warrant for your arrest, but at that point at least you're prepared for it.
That being said, being on the good side of your local police force is probably in your best interest overall.
Admin
Admin
This is the best quote on the thread. I have some friends who are cops, and I still hate the lot of them. A) I don't need your assistance - if something happens to me, it's MY business. Not the state/city/nation's business. Let ME handle it. B) Wearing a badge and taking a few classes doesn't give you the authority to give me orders of any kind. Shove that metal badge up your ass. C) I have no respect for anyone who makes a living ruining other people's lives. Everyone knows that most laws are utter bullshit, and the government cracks down on any behavior that they can't profit off of.
Admin
The real WTF is that the killer din't steal Big Billy The Drug Dealer's cell phone. Or if the numbers were from the home phone that Big Billy was dumb enough to conduct his buisiness on it.
Admin
There is been a Supreme Court case about this issue and they ruled at asserting your Constitutional rights does not give police probably cause. The case came out of an officer who asked, during a routine traffic stop, to search a person's car. The gentleman said no. Then thinking they had probably cause, brought in a drug dog and searched the car; finding drugs in the end. The case went up to the Supreme Court and they ruled that just because the gentlemen asserted his Constitutional right to not have his vehicle searched, that did not give the officers probable cause.
Admin
That's supposed to be a grace period for filing charges, and I think it varies between jurisdictions. Either way, they can't question you if you don't want to be questioned, and if they hold you for an extended period without charges, you have a good case for harassment. They can't just scoop people up off the street without probable cause.
Admin
Admin
Generally people who routinely break, skirt, or flout the law on a regular basis know that eventually they're going to get asked about it, so they seek counsel before hand.
Saying "I want a lawyer" and "I want my lawyer" are two different things.
Most adults have, at one time or another, had reason to use a lawyer, whether for something as trivial as a will, because they were suing or being sued, for child custody etc.