• King (unregistered)

    Todays article is wonderful. Ignorance at its finest!

  • King (unregistered)

    I wonder if AI is used to decide whether or not to place a comment for moderation?

  • (nodebb)

    They would have to have offered one hell of a dental plan to compensate for the teeth-grinding damage I would have suffered over 6 months of that.

  • Jason Stringify (unregistered)

    The first week of those six months were spent

    *was

    Barry lead Philip to his office

    *led

  • Peter Lawrey (unregistered)

    I have seen the same. As a bonus, the project at this bank used a feature in Eclipse to embed compilation errors as throw new Error("This line doesn't compile") so you could run it like a script and only find compilation errors when you tripped over them. It took 5 days to deploy an environment to test it, or put it to production, so it was only done every month or so. I spent 5 of the 6 months automating it so it could all be done in one hour from a single script. The project was cancelled as it turned out no one wanted to test it (or wanted the features), but my build and deploy tool as still used many years later.

  • (nodebb)

    I don't know Philip's financial situation. Maybe he really needed the money, but, if not, in his position I would have started by pointing out that I hadn't actually asked to write tests (yet), I had asked to read the existing tests. You have got some, right? Right?!

    Then when they started pulling all the crap about development environments, I'd have politely explained that, if you want your developers to be as productive as possible, you need to give them the tools to do their jobs properly. It seems to me that it is only in the IT industry that managers seek to sabotage the work of their employees by mandating restricted toolss and practices.

    If all that got my contract terminated, I'd regard that as a win.

  • (nodebb)

    What's with all the double posts today?

  • Hal (unregistered)

    What always amazes me about these stories is that they seem to happen in the banking space so frequently. Yes banks are know for being conservative. However that type of conservatism should value correctness and reliability about all else, so you'd think TDD would be their world. Honestly I would think clueful leadership at a bank would be the type of place where they basically demand a darn near 1:1 relationship between lines of code and test code.

    What surprises me about banks though is you'd expect someone in the E-suite to eventually look at all the salary expense, look the information science tools they have been delivered to them to work with, and ask 'what the heck are we paying for, why is so little costing so much?' You would think this would lead to them asking middle management questions they can't answer and expose the folks that unable to run a contemporary software shop, and yet..

  • (nodebb) in reply to jeremypnet

    You're tired and seeing double.

    You're tired and setting double.

    Y̶o̵u̷'̵r̴e̸ ̸t̸i̴r̷e̶d̸ ̵a̸n̴d̴ ̶s̸e̶e̶i̷n̸g̶ ̴d̶o̵u̸b̶l̶e̴.̵

    Y̶̫̎͛o̴̦̪͑̋ù̵̡̘'̶̪̬͝r̵͉͠e̶̠̝͐̃ ̴̭̐t̸͕̏ḭ̸̋̉r̷͙̉e̸͉̙͑̈ḓ̵̪̒͠ ̸͇́͋a̶͕̓͝ň̵͎̑d̸̘̯͆ ̶̤͛ṡ̵̭̚e̷̜͆é̷͈̙i̵̗̍n̵͇̬͂͋ǵ̵͔ ̸̮͛d̷̗͜͝o̷͕͗u̴̧͝b̸̦̋̃l̸̖̇͠ḛ̸̓.̴͇̄̚

    Ỵ̷̧̡̞̜̯̝̎͗͗̆̓̀̄o̸̞̭̹̤͂͂̇ų̷̯̤̠̼̺̩̫̳́͗̈́͆͜͠'̵̨͖̪͓͕͂ͅř̶̠̜͕̖̤̬͜e̴̪̠̰̞̍̎̂͌͗͆ͅ ̶̣͖͔̹̤̩̦̺͈̑̀̍͗͜t̸̢̨̩͐̌̃̍̈́̃͆̕̚͝í̷̡͍̗̅̆͂̈́r̴̈́͑͋̀̂͛̑͊́͘͜è̵̜͔̜͓͂̈́́̀̿̂̅͐͜d̸̛̹̩̃͌͂̚͝ ̴̜̯̤̣͙͋͑̒ā̸̺̟̥ñ̷͖̣̯̪̫̆̒͑̍̅̇̚͝d̷͉͗̃̃̀́̚ ̸͓̗͓̳͋ș̷̨̢͈̜̟̫̣̝̀e̸͔̝͕͓̮̺̗̥̟̐̒͊̔̀̈́͘ẽ̸̩̻̤̙̻̳̯̉̑̔̌î̶̞̞͓̜͎̫͌̑̉̔͒̄n̶̢̮̥̹̣͆g̶͎̼̽ ̸̩͚̙̱̙͌̈́̄ḏ̸̣̘̩̺̙͛͆̍͝͝o̴̢̦̮̮̯͚̰̬̘̅͊u̶͔̣̖͓̜̭̰̇͛b̷̧͎̭͙͐͜l̵̙̯͉̟͑e̵̮̰͍͂̏̍̔͐̄.̴̡̲͍̯̤͙̅͊̌͒̽͐͐͒̆̕

    Y̴̙͙̳͐͆ȍ̷̗͔̹̣͉͎̘̥̥̩̦̺̈͋̉̅̅̀̒͂̎̒͑̓̌̒̕͜ư̷̛̟̠̣͕͊͌͑̽͆̿͌̒͑͆̄̍͋͘͝'̵̨̨̜͇̻͔͕͍̲̘̹͇̲͌́̈̈́͑̇͐̒̒̾͆̔͌͜r̷͓͇͊͑̇̆̇̕͠è̴̢̠̪͚̭͔̥̳̗̹̦̦͖̙̤ ̷̡̙̬͖̣͙͎͉͍̚̕̚̚ͅt̵̢̢̠͚̣̰̰͇̦̥̰͇̞͋ḭ̵̗̮̟̮͒̽̎̀͂̓̂͐̋̐͊͘͠r̵̡̛͉̻͍̘̥̹̯̬̻̆́̇͋̾̉̍͂̚̕͘ę̵̛̩͔͇͂͐̈́͑́̈́̐͛͋͠͠ḍ̵̼̠͓̝͚̦͈̹͍͂̏́͗̃̽͋̊̿̊̀̽͜͠ ̴̡͈̗̱͉̯̭̺̠̲̲̎̎̈́̀̉̎̎́̊̂́̽̂͆̕͜͝a̵̛͕̝̖̩̐̍͌̋͋̉͋͒͑̎̓̅̈́̚͝ṇ̸͖̥͍̰̻͓̹̥̙̩̞̥̘̉̉́̈́̌̃̿̃͋̃̃̕͜͠ͅḑ̸͚̫̞̞̜͕̋͂̋̀̔̋́̓̈́͋͌̏̍̎́ͅ ̷̧̢̭̗̬̪͇̱͔̮̯͈͇̲̖̮̐̾͑͘ͅs̷̨̯̹̟͙̣̖̬̲̤̳̯͎̦̭͎̲͋̾͂̂̅̋̄̂̈́̀̋̂ȩ̸̰͕͓̤͍̟̩͌͌̈̀͑̀̔̍̑̓͘͘ẽ̸̢̝̙̦̪̼̝̯͙̥̞̼̤̠̜͈͛̀̓̌̎̽̃̏ͅͅḯ̷̬̖̑̏͂̈́́̉̂͐̚͠n̴̡͎͕̘̘̻͈̫̦̮̗͚͂͋̂̄́́ǵ̸̢̢͉̞̱͕̟̭͎̣̹̫̈́͛̑̅̀̂͊͛̀̋͗̽͑̊͗ ̶̧̨̧̪͍̬͇̠̺̮͔̟̺̘͇̇͛́̀̅̽͗̊͒̇͋͘d̷̡͔̗̞̝̜̞̙̀̏͊̌̒̈́́͑͗̾o̸̠̲̰͙̾̇̍͗͌̃̔u̵̠̅͛b̷̲̥̦̠̬̯͕͉̺̖̯̲͓̿͜ľ̸̡̘͚͙̹͖͗͗̒̈́̆̽̀̑͋͝e̴̩̜͕̮̫̦͋̍̽̌͐́̀̽͝.̸̛̻̣̫̥̫͇͈͌͐̍͒̌̉̿̔̐̓̌͊̚͝

    Ş̶̢̛̛͉̬̬̼͕͉̗͍̙̖̱̻̺̹͖̰̰̫̤̻̘̜̗̼̯̍͂̇̉̈́͛̄̄̉͂̎͌̃̈́́̀̀̅̊̒̓̽̊͛͑̈́̑͗͆̃̐͌̈̈̀̌͆̒̔̔̉̔͗̓̕͠͝e̴̢̢̨̖͈͈̬͉̯͕͙̻̼͕͓̙̝̘̩͎͖͕̳̳̜̗̭̼͍͖͈̪̪̤̞͔͎̥͎͐̅̂̏̾̍̐̌͌̈̅͆̔̑̂̿͑͒͛̈́̆̀̍̐̈́̐̆͒̿̐̈́͑̎͜͝͠͠ͅn̸̡̡̧̧̧̧̛͉͔̮̝̜̝̭̥͕̹̣̻̫̮̣̩͓̯̮̝͕̠̙̯͇̟̜̮͇̱̫̬͕̖̰̮̿͊̽̋̏͋͐̃̄̽͊̊͑̀̓͂̒̃͑̐̈́̓͌͒̾́̄̆̄͂̑̏̈̽̑̐͐́̀́̔͘̕̚̕͜͜͝͠͠ͅd̸̡̧̛̛͎̙̲̹̹̬͇̱̦̥̣̬̰̠̪͚͚̜͙̼̞̞̺̣͈̙̞̮̥̲̰͓͉͒̂̍̉̽́̏͂͆̐͛̋̿͂͆͐̽̇͗̐̍͜͝ͅ ̸̨̢̛̟̥̲̗̊̾͛͑͋͑͑̒̾͐̿͋̌́̅̈́͐̏̌͊͗͋́̇̒͐̇̒̀́̎͊̽̀̔́̚̚̚̕͘͝͠͝͠͠h̸̢̡̢̢͖̤̟͎̟̣̺̬̘̲̺̼͓̖̠̣͈͕̤̫̫͓̟̟͔̩̜͉̃̓͋̓̋̈́̓̽̂͂̀̈́͋͌̆͛̈́̿̊͑͊̃̌̏̔̎̆̿̐̾̆̌̚̕͜͝e̵̛̛̛̙͎̠̮̦͈͓͚̳͚͎̟͖͒̎͒͑̒̉͊͒̄̊̽͂͐̈́̓̋̓̏̊̈̎̊͆̂̏̽̄͂́̍̄̎͛́̋̇͒́̚̕̕͘͝ͅļ̶̨̛̗̟̮͎̩̦̲̯̣͇̫̔͋̒̔̏̇̀́̍̊͐͐̀̏͐̉̔̓̔͛̉̀͊p̵̨̡̢̡̨͕̳͔̤̠̟̤̬̪̯̟̺̖̞̟̥̟̦͖̻͉̬̀̆̽̀̄͋̍̕̕͝.̶͕̀̊̅͂͝

  • Brian (unregistered)
    So, for one week, Philip did nothing but sit at a desk for 8 hours.

    I feel your pain, buddy. My first job out of college was with the government. When I first showed up it took me most of the day to find out which department I was even assigned to, and when I finally got to the right place they were completely unprepared for me. At least they gave me some books to read while waiting on a computer to show up.

  • LZ79LRU (unregistered)

    Banks are not just conservative but they are also insanely security conscious but only in their own insane way.

    To put it bluntly, they do not trust their developers even a tiny bit. For them, someone with direct raw access to their system like that is the prime security risk. The evil wizard they have allowed in their midst because they need to but must always watch lest he get up to evil.

    Your job in a bank is not to do things right. It's not to do things quickly or efficiently. Your job is to do things the way they want you to do them so that they can always and at all times be sure that you are not doing something you should not. And if the choice is between no results and evil results they'll fire you and find someone desperate enough for money to grind through their process to get a result.

    So once a process has been created, vetted and adopted you are stuck with it until the end of time. And maybe even after that depending on what the J man has to say about usury on his return tour. And it does not matter if this process makes your job literally impossible or introduces actual real security problems. Because you are the only security risk they care about.

    And if you are wondering how anyone can work in such a place for more than a week all I can say is that frankly looking back I can't explain it either. But youth is one hell of an energy drink.

  • Deeseearr (unregistered) in reply to Hal

    Bank IT Culture is a result of evolutionary pressures.

    Not only is Finance highly risk averse it is also heavily regulated. If you do something stupid in any other industry you feel bad for a moment, lose some productivity and get to do it over again. If you do something stupid at a bank you feel bad for a moment and get investigated by people in dark suits who have had their senses of humour surgically removed.

    If it turns out that you did something stupid on your own, that's against the rules and you get a fine with a lot of zeroes on the end. If, however, you held a bunch of meetings and did something stupid but have a lot of paperwork to show that you were doing it, that's not a problem.

    If you have been around here a bit you will be familiar with the idea of "Cargo Cult Programming": "If I put this exception handler in my code, it won't crash. Never mind that I don't throw exceptions and this doesn't handle them." The same kind of logic applies to processes -- "If we hold more meetings, we don't get fined". "If we follow existing procedures then we don't get blamed". It doesn't matter that the procedures were set twenty years ago, they're being followed.

    And this behaviour is rewarded. The fines are averted. The blame is withheld. And people who act that way are retained and even promoted, while the people who have crazy notions like "think about what you're doing" and "modernize this crap" are pushed aside and eventually leave to be employed somewhere a little less backwards. Occasionally someone breaks the mold and does something radical only to find themselves blamed for the next failure, thus reinforcing the whole culture.

    So, within a few generations (employment-wise, that's a decade or two) the entire organization is filled with only one type of person and there's nobody left ask middle management questions they can't answer or expose the folks that unable to run a contemporary software shop.

  • Duke of New York (unregistered)

    As a great president once said, testing just raises problems and makes you look bad.

  • Anon (unregistered) in reply to LZ79LRU

    “ So once a process has been created, vetted and adopted you are stuck with it until the end of time.”

    ITIL?

  • Officer Johnny Holzkopf (unregistered) in reply to Deeseearr

    The following ruleset enforces the mentality described:

    1. "We have never done it that way."

    2. "We have always done it that way."

    3. "Anyone could have suggested that."

    As a result, generations of employees have been trained to close their heads and do as they're told, without any participation of a working mind. Or as we say in Germany: "Machensen Kopp zu!"

  • (nodebb) in reply to Hal

    I don't know about your part of the world, but in my part of the world the banking industry seems stronger than most in preferring to hire people from other banks, rather than people from other industries, no matter how capable they might be of doing the job.

    I suspect this creates a lot of groupthink not just within a bank, but across the entire sector, building in a lot of resistance to new or different ways of thinking, which might explain why a recent Royal Commission (=Commission of inquiry for those of you not in a constitutional monarchy) uncovered systemic problems like charging customers for financial advice that was contrary to the customer's interest (or even better still, charging them for financial advice that was never given, occasionally because the customer hadn't returned from being dead), that apparently everyone involved thought was all perfectly fine and business as usual.

    I'm not an anthropologist, and don't play one on TV, but I wonder whether it stems from the days of banking relying on rooms full of people following the process without thinking - so the idea of spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on more employees is easier to approve than spending hundreds of dollars replacing their quill pens with something better.

    It might also explain why so many people in banking drink a lot.

  • (nodebb) in reply to Officer Johnny Holzkopf

    Or as we say in Germany: "Machensen Kopp zu!"

    Well, in some parts of Germany maybe. In other parts it's "Hoitd'fotzn", far more economical.

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