• Remy (disco)

    Yeah, this isn't actually new to people who watch the forums. You got something before the front-page readers, congrats!

  • rc4 (disco) in reply to Remy
    Remy:
    You got something before the front-page readers, congrats!

    I mean, we all watch the Article category anyway.

  • Tsaukpaetra (disco) in reply to rc4
    rc4:
    all watch the Article

    Nope, I notificate the listener for the event stream!

  • Remy (disco) in reply to rc4

    Yeah, I actually almost just pointed the comment thread at the original thread in the sidebar, but realized a lot of forum folks would just be confused about why there wasn't a new article.

  • RaceProUK (disco) in reply to Remy

    You could've Jeff'd the Sidebar thread into Article ;)

  • wft (disco)

    I told it there, and I'm gonna repeat it, and won't regret it once: this made me like the Lord of the Rings even better.

    (sad smile)

  • kt_ (disco) in reply to wft
    Comment held for moderation.
  • Remy (disco) in reply to kt_

    This did come more from a place of, "the comparison is funny", but I'll be honest: I'm actually not that big a fan. I think the worldbuilding is tedious, and since the whole story exists to support worldbuilding, that's a bad thing.

    I did enjoy Shadow of Mordor though.

  • CreatedToDislikeThis (disco)

    I only hate the Lord of the Rings fans

  • kt_ (disco) in reply to Remy
    Remy:
    I think the worldbuilding is tedious

    What exactly do you mean by "tedious worldbuilding"? Do you mean that the way that the world is described throughout the story is not seamless enough and uninteresting (tedious to read?)

    CreatedToDislikeThis:
    I only hate the Lord of the Rings fans

    Yeah, fans are quite hateable in general, at least if what you mean by "fans" is "a group of people fanatically, uncritically and unconditionally dedicated to a work/creator and hysterically expressing their feelings".

  • Mornak (disco)

    I don't hate Lord of the Ring buy I sure like this article. Very good! Keep it coming!

  • RaceProUK (disco) in reply to kt_
    kt_:
    Yeah, fans are quite hateable in general, at least if what you mean by "fans" is "a group of people fanatically, uncritically and unconditionally dedicated to a work/creator and hysterically expressing their feelings".
    That would be the definition of 'fanboi' or 'fangirl'; normal fans will at least acknowledge something isn't perfect and criticise it.
  • PWolff (disco) in reply to RaceProUK

    Normal fans will just move some hot air around and won't do much harm unless being hit the wrong way.

  • kt_ (disco) in reply to Mornak
    Comment held for moderation.
  • TwelveBaud (disco)
    Comment held for moderation.
  • PJH (disco) in reply to kt_
    kt_:
    Do you mean that the way that the world is described throughout the story is not seamless enough and uninteresting (*tedious* to read?)

    Five pages on describing the perfectly ordinary bush that Bilbo is about to walk past does tend to be a bit of overkill and a distraction to the actual story...

  • FrostCat (disco) in reply to Remy
    Remy:
    forum folks would just be confused about why there wasn't a new article.

    Forum folks read the articles? Who knew?

  • Remy (disco) in reply to kt_

    Worldbuilding should be invisible to the reader. Like, I love books that take place in weird and strange settings that require explanation (Rajaniemi's Flambeur series, is one of my favorite reads). But I like them the best when I don't feel like somebody's built a story to show off this really cool world they had in mind.

    //Caveat: I do like Greg Egan books, which 100% contradict what I just said, but even while Greg Egan writes entire trilogies based on "What if the sign of this one term in various relativistic equations was reversed?", he never invented Tom Bombadill. Seriously, Bombadill is just the worst.

  • dkf (disco) in reply to Remy
    Remy:
    Seriously, Bombadill is just the worst.

    He's there to justify the tie-in game, Super Bombadil Man!

  • asdf (disco) in reply to Remy
    Remy:
    Worldbuilding should be invisible to the reader.

    Is it okay if I disagree? Worldbuilding is only annoying to me when it takes too long (you could argue that's the case in LOTR) or feels forced (often the case in long-running TV series or Hollywood movies, when they desperately need to introduce a new plot as quickly as possible and ruin the story in the process). But I don't mind exploring the world the author thought of and knowing I'm supposed to learn its rules while reading/watching.

  • Arantor (disco) in reply to dkf

    Who, inexplicably, sings rambling songs at his enemies.

  • RaceProUK (disco) in reply to Arantor

    He's killing them softly with his song, is what he's doing :smile:

  • asdf (disco) in reply to RaceProUK
    RaceProUK:
    He's killing them softly with his song, is what he's doing

    How I got that song stuck in my ear. I hope you're happy :angry:

  • dse (disco)

    I Hate the Lord of the Rings

    And the Lord of the Rings hates you back

  • HardwareGeek (disco) in reply to PJH
    PJH:
    Five pages on describing the perfectly ordinary bush that Bilbo is about to walk past does tend to be a bit of overkill and a distraction to the actual story...

    I didn't really notice that so much in LOTR. The Silmarillion, now that's a slog; I thought the story itself was interesting, but the editing by Christopher Tolkien — it needed to cut by about 50%.

  • dse (disco) in reply to HardwareGeek
    HardwareGeek:
    The Silmarillion

    I always want to start reading it, but read somewhere that there is no end, the author died before any conclusion. I do not like unfinished stories, no matter how long. What do you think?

  • blek (disco)

    That was really good. The only thing I didn't like about the video is that the table wasn't wooden enough.

  • HardwareGeek (disco) in reply to dse

    J.R.R. did die before it was published; his son Christopher edited and published it after his death. It's been a few decades since I read it, so I don't remember exactly how the book ends, but I wouldn't say the story is unfinished. It is a prequel to the whole LOTR universe and describes how Middle Earth and the various races came to be, so I think it's fair to say LOTR is the end of the story. The main fault that I have with it is that every thing you encounter in the story is described and named in every single elven, dwarvish, human and whatever language that Tolkien thought of. Every. Single. One. It's cool that Tolkien invented all those languages, but the book is supposed to be a story, not a polyglot dictionary.

  • CoyneTheDup (disco)

    No frist?

    [holding chest, staggering around] "Oh, it's the big one. I'm coming to join you, EthelElizabeth."

  • FrostCat (disco) in reply to CoyneTheDup

    Elizabeth, but points for trying!

    [image]
  • kt_ (disco) in reply to PJH
    PJH:
    Five pages on describing the perfectly **ordinary** bush that Bilbo is about to walk past does tend to be a bit of overkill and a distraction to the actual story...

    Yeah, but just imagine if it were… burning! We could start a religion! :trolleybus:

    But seriously, can you give some pointers to where the scene is? I've no recollection of that. :wink:

  • VonSkippy (disco)

    This is an awkward confession for a commenter to make, but I hated the video.

    Almost eight minutes of video for what should have been a sixty second bit.

    Please get an editor with a huge red pen (or I guess in the case of video, huge red scissors) to shorten the future bits into something that's actually worth sitting thru, and you know, funny.

  • Matt_Westwood (disco)

    Terry Pratchett (paraphrased): "If you read LotR at age 17 and didn't think it was the greatest story ever told, there's something wrong with you. If you are still reading LotR at age 35 and Still think it's the greatest story every told, there's something wrong with you."

  • Remy (disco) in reply to Matt_Westwood

    Maybe that's my problem- I didn't read it at 17. I was in my mid-20s when I took a crack at it.

  • boomzilla (disco) in reply to asdf
    asdf:
    Is it okay if I disagree? Worldbuilding is only annoying to me when it takes too long (you could argue that's the case in LOTR)

    I used to hate that stuff the first few times I read LOTR. I really love it now, though. I suspect that's due to knowing the story more and being able to enjoy the detail now plus my own maturity as a reader.

  • boomzilla (disco) in reply to HardwareGeek
    HardwareGeek:
    J.R.R. did die before it was published; his son Christopher edited and published it after his death. It's been a few decades since I read it, so I don't remember exactly how the book ends, but I wouldn't say the story is unfinished.

    It's more of a history book than a novel, though.

  • Karla (disco) in reply to asdf
    asdf:
    How I got that song stuck in my ear. I hope you're happy :angry:

    Who's version? Roberta Flack, Al B Sure, or the Fugees?

  • another_sam (disco) in reply to HardwareGeek
    HardwareGeek:
    the book is supposed to be a story, not a polyglot dictionary

    LotR is supposed to be a story, and before it, The Hobbit. But The Silmarilllion, I'm pretty sure is just a dictionary and encyclopedia. I couldn't read it.

  • another_sam (disco) in reply to Remy
    Remy:
    Maybe that's my problem- I didn't read it at 17. I was in my mid-20s when I took a crack at it.

    I was 11. Didn't quite finish The Two Towers because I hit (what seemed at the time to an 11 year old) a long dry spot. Tried again at about 18, finished, enjoyed it. Still didn't like Bombadil. Again at 30 because the movies re-awakened my interest. Enjoyed it again. Still didn't like Bombadil.

  • asdf (disco) in reply to Karla
    Karla:
    Roberta Flack, Al B Sure, or the Fugees?

    The version I head in my head was from someone else, I think. I listened to all three, and none of them matched exactly.

  • Karla (disco) in reply to asdf
    Comment held for moderation.
  • asdf (disco) in reply to Karla

    Hm… Maybe I just made a remix out of different versions in my head.

  • HardwareGeek (disco) in reply to another_sam
    another_sam:
    The Silmarilllion, I'm pretty sure is just a dictionary and encyclopedia.

    As I said before, it has been a long time since I read it, but there are two things I recall about it. One is the previously described linguistic tedium. The other is the narrative of the creation of the world and various races, and which was a clear allegory of the Judeo-Christian creation mythos. The narrative extended through multiple chapters, not merely an encyclopedia entry.

  • another_sam (disco) in reply to HardwareGeek
    HardwareGeek:
    allegory of the Judeo-Christian creation mythos. The narrative extended through multiple chapters, not merely an encyclopedia entry.

    I suppose you could say that, from what little I remember of it. But I found it as dry and undigestible as reading the Bible. It read to me at the time more like a rather large encyclopedia entry than a narrative.

  • CoyneTheDup (disco) in reply to FrostCat
    FrostCat:
    Elizabeth, but points for trying!

    GOGGLE_NOT_USED_EXCEPTION

  • Kneth (disco)

    Great, now i hate Lord of the Rings too.

  • Quite (disco) in reply to kt_
    kt_:
    Five pages on describing the perfectly ordinary bush that Bilbo is about to walk past does tend to be a bit of overkill and a distraction to the actual story...

    Yeah, but just imagine if it were… burning! We could start a religion! :trolleybus:

    But seriously, can you give some pointers to where the scene is? I've no recollection of that. :wink:

    Exactly. There is no such scene. Bilbo has a bit part in LotR (although he's the protagonist in The Hobbit) -- his position has been superseded by Frodo.

    Methinks the writer of this post hasn't actually read it at all, but is just jumping on the let's-knock-LotR-like-everyone-else-and-thereby-prove-I'm-a-cool-and-groovy-person bandwagon by posting up something lame in a vain and completely unsuccessful attempt to be humorous.

    As for the movies, they are not the books.

    The books are what they are and are a child of their time. Tolkien himself admits he didn't know where they were going when they started: he was just making it up as he went along. He didn't know who Aragorn was when he introduced him into the plot, and he didn't know who Tom Bombadil was either. (Turned out that the latter was a bit of a lot dead-end and that entire incident (from the Brandywine to Bree) could have been excised with no loss to the plot.)

    If you want to harangue a writer for overwriting, take a pop at Neal Stephenson who, for example, spent several pages of Cryptonomicon explaining how to eat a bowl of cereal, and even more pages detailing how the bedroom delights of a certain couple were optimised by a particular combination of serendipitous circumstances, both of which were completely irrelevant to the main plot and an editor really should have done a number on it.

  • kt_ (disco) in reply to Remy
    Remy:
    Worldbuilding should be invisible to the reader. Like, I love books that take place in weird and strange settings that require explanation (Rajaniemi's Flambeur series, is one of my favorite reads). But I like them the best when I don't feel like somebody's built a story to show off this really cool world they had in mind.

    Thanks for the explanation, turns out I understood you correctly. :smile:

    HardwareGeek:
    J.R.R. did die before it was published; his son Christopher edited and published it after his death.

    And as he admitted quite a few years later, he'd also written a few passages where it was impossible to join the story with what his father left.

    Matt_Westwood:
    Terry Pratchett (paraphrased): "If you read LotR at age 17 and didn't think it was the greatest story ever told, there's something wrong with you. If you are still reading LotR at age 35 and Still think it's the greatest story every told, there's something wrong with you."

    Hah, I feel similarly about Pratchett. If you read his books at the age of 12 and you don't think these are the funniest and most perceptive stories, there's something wrong with you. If you read it at the age of 20-something and you don't think that these are mostly a bit silly stories but they're great fun nevertheless, there's something wrong with you too. :laughing:

  • Quite (disco) in reply to kt_
    kt_:
    Hah, I feel similarly about Pratchett. If you read his books at the age of 12 and you don't think these are the funniest and most perceptive stories, there's something wrong with you. If you read it at the age of 20-something and you don't think that these are mostly a bit silly stories but they're great fun nevertheless, there's something wrong with you too. :laughing:

    Some of his early work is a bit like that, but the majority of his midperiod work is insightful and literary, and of far greater worth than being "mostly a bit silly stories", but then you need a certain amount of intellectual depth to appreciate them, and it's possible that you might have just missed the subtleties and profundities. His later work is unfortunately a sad shadow of his best work, but that's a product of his illness.

  • PJH (disco) in reply to Quite
    Quite:
    Methinks the writer of this post hasn't actually read it at all, but is just jumping on the let's-knock-LotR-like-everyone-else-and-thereby-prove-I'm-a-cool-and-groovy-person bandwagon by posting up something lame in a vain and completely unsuccessful attempt to be humorous.

    Wrong.

    I actually gave up reading part-way through one of the books and never went back to any them because I just couldn't face the, to me, tediously boring narrative.

    Of course, I was using hyperbole in my Bilbo/bush scene (which the person you quoted picked up on, but you obviously didn't) but it describes perfectly how it felt to me to slog through them.

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