The Daily WTF: Curious Perversions in Information Technology

Anonymoose · 2005-11-08 Reply Admin

Anonymoose:
Awww crap, I called a 'function' an 'operator'!

There goes my credibility.

Not to mention, stating that 3 > 4.

You see, it's a great big three made out of rock, and little bitty four made out of paper.

2005-11-08 Reply Admin

Dude, why are the Germans so f*cked up?

Jeff S · 2005-11-08 Reply Admin

Anonymoose:
Jeff S:
Anonymous:

Anonymous:
IIF() is a *function*, :? is a *operator*.
There is a difference, you know.

LP,
Dejan

Um... Operators are Functions, thats why you can overload them in C. You overload the function that the operator is a weird calling convention for. And like all functions the parameters are generally evaluated before being sent to the function which is why in the 'defense of ternary' thread, even those who support their use made sure to clarify that you should never use parameters that have side effects. If you need a decision tree that has side effects you need to use If structure instead.

hmmmm ... can you explain to me how short circuiting works?

In C, the following statement will not call function().
    bool result = false && function();
Why bother to evaluate the second operator, when the result is already a foregone conclusion?
In VB, that function will be called, from what I gather.

This is often seen inside an if statement, like so:
    if (boolean_test && function())
      etc...
As well, this is sometimes used for pointer checking, like so:
    if (ptr && ptr->next) ...
Without short circuiting, the ptr->next will always be evaluated, even when ptr is NULL.

Just as an aside, I am wondering now, if yesterday's WTF, the guy who did not understand boolean logic, was confusing boolean logic and C bitwise operations, such as:
    if (5) // true
        if (3 > 4) // true
          if (5 & (3 > 4)) // not true
             ...
          else
             cout << "I am so confused!";

Thanks. (I actually know how it works, the point was it only works with certain operators and not functions)

kipthegreat · 2005-11-08 Reply Admin

Richard Nixon:
Anonymous:
We Germans are good at computing... err... at least sometimes... I think you just should not let any German older than 30 do programming work, they tend to do it the "old school style"

Who else would you like to arbitrarily exclude with a crazy rule? Gypsies? Jews? Homosexuals? Did I miss any of your usual targets?

Sincerely,

Richard Nixon

You left out handicapable people.

Manni · 2005-11-08 Reply Admin

Jeff S:
Manni:

Otto:
For even more fun, that ternary function known as IIf in VB doesn't do short circut evaluation. Think about that in terms of speed. [:'(]

The speed is a killer, but my favorite part is that if you put functions in the true and false criteria, it will execute both of them before performing the evaluation.

a = IIf(0 = 1, RunProcess1, RunProcess2)

Since IIf is a function, it will attempt to send the results of the functions to the IIf function as parameters. It's painful to try to explain to other VB folks why IIf is not a good idea.

Hey Manni, why is IIF() "not a good idea"? Please be patient and explain it to me. When you say "not a good idea" to you mean:

* It was not a good idea for the guys who wrote VBA to include an IIF() function ?

* It is not a good idea to use this function if you think it's an operator?

* It is not a good idea to use *any* functions if you don't understand how arguments must be evaluated before the function can be called?

* It is not a good idea to confuse operators and functions?

* It is not a good idea to spell something "iif" ?

Help clear this up for me.

It's not a good idea because I don't know how to pronounce "iif". Is it "eh-iff"? Maybe "i-iff"?

To answer your thoughts, I pose these answers:

* December, 1978

* Citizen Kane

* Kenya

* 2 or 3

I hope you're clear on these points, I don't want to have to repeat myself.

seizethedave · 2005-11-08 Reply Admin

I would quit that place sooooo fast.

dpm · 2005-11-08 Reply Admin

Ytram:

Suppose language X didn't have a built-in ternary operator, but had a function called JeffS(expression, value1, value2) that returned value1 if expression is true, value2 otherwise. Now suppose a programmer new to language X asked if it had a ternary operator, would you say:

1) "LOL OMFG NO!!!"
2) "Kinda, it has this function called JeffS, and it works essentially the same way."

I would say "No". If he wanted to know about a function, he would ask me^H^H^H^H^H^H RTFM.

Sometimes life really is that simple.

ok
dpm

2005-11-08 Reply Admin

Yeah, your right, it does look like a function. Interesting. Good because I would really like to write my own and operator because I don't like && (this is written in some sort of C dialect, C, C++, Java, C#. Change the syntax that needs to be changed to make it work):

bool myAnd(bool test1, bool test2)
{
    return test1 && test2;
}

Now I would like to use myAnd in a function I wrote:

bool f()
{
    return myAnd(3==4, f());
}

If you are correct in your theory that in the C based languages operators and functions are equivalent, then the above function f, should be equivalent to g:

bool g()
{
    return (3==4) && g();
}

So, are f and g equivalent? Think about it.

test1 · 2005-11-08 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
Yeah, your right, it does look like a function. Interesting. Good because I would really like to write my own and operator because I don't like && (this is written in some sort of C dialect, C, C++, Java, C#. Change the syntax that needs to be changed to make it work):

bool myAnd(bool test1, bool test2)
{
    return test1 && test2;
}

Now I would like to use myAnd in a function I wrote:

bool f()
{
    return myAnd(3==4, f());
}

If you are correct in your theory that in the C based languages operators and functions are equivalent, then the above function f, should be equivalent to g:

bool g()
{
    return (3==4) && g();
}

So, are f and g equivalent? Think about it.

Interesting recursive function you have going there. I think thats infinite.

TheRider · 2005-11-08 Reply Admin

nobody:
In other words: this proves that there is no God!

wrong. It is proof that God exists. And that his wrath is upon us.

welcor · 2005-11-08 Reply Admin

test1:

Anonymous:

bool myAnd(bool test1, bool test2)
{
    return test1 && test2;
}

Now I would like to use myAnd in a function I wrote:

bool f()
{
    return myAnd(3==4, f());
}

If you are correct in your theory that in the C based languages operators and functions are equivalent, then the above function f, should be equivalent to g:

bool g()
{
    return (3==4) && g();
}

So, are f and g equivalent? Think about it.

Interesting recursive function you have going there. I think thats infinite.

Well, the first one is, at least. The second wont recurse, because && shortcircuits. Which I guess is the point he's trying to get across. But we got it some twenty posts up, most of us.

2005-11-08 Reply Admin

dpm:
Ytram:

Suppose language X didn't have a built-in ternary operator, but had a function called JeffS(expression, value1, value2) that returned value1 if expression is true, value2 otherwise. Now suppose a programmer new to language X asked if it had a ternary operator, would you say:

1) "LOL OMFG NO!!!"
2) "Kinda, it has this function called JeffS, and it works essentially the same way."

I would say "No". If he wanted to know about a function, he would ask me^H^H^H^H^H^H RTFM.

Sometimes life really is that simple.

ok
dpm

Depends on the language. In C dialects (C, C++, Java, C#) and most other languages that are decended from Algol, arguments to functions are fully evaluated before being passed to the function. This type of evaluation strategy is known as applicative-order (strict) evaluation. Some programming languages (Haskell for example) use a type of evaluation strategy known as normal-order (lazy) evaluation, whereby arguments are not evaluated until they are needed. In this case, if there were no "ternary", "and", and "or" operators, then we could implement these as functions using only if (in Haskell):

myAnd test1 test2 = if test1 then test2 else test1
myOr test1 test2 = if test1 then test1 else test2
myTernary test t f = if test then t else f

and they would behave as expected. Now, we could do the same thing in C, and testing them on various values, we would find than indeed our "and" function will return false unless both arguments are true, our "or" function would return true unless both arguments are false, and our ternary operation would return its second argment if the first argment was true, and the third otherwise. The difference between a language that uses applicative-order evaluation and normal-order evaluation becomes much clearer when we actually try to use our functions as we would the "and", "or" and "ternary" operators, for example (some C like language):

bool myAnd( bool t1, bool t2 )
{
    if( t1 )
       return t2;
    else
       return t1;
}

bool f(int a)
{
    myAnd( 3 == 4, f(a) );
}

What will f(0) do? Well, it depends. In C like languages that utilize applicative-order evaluation, calling f(0) will result in an infinite recursion. However if we do something similar in a language such as Haskell:

f a = myAnd (3==4) f a

evaluating f 0 will result in False, because the arguments are not evaluated until they are needed. Hence in the Haskell definition of myAnd, the second argument, which is in the "then" part of the if-then-else statement, is never evaluated because the first argument is false! So, it turns out these types of languages are much closer to the mathematical definition of operator (in math an operator over a set S is a function (!) from SxS -> S) because operators and functions are much more difficult to distinguish. However in most programming languages (applicative-order evaluation is generally easier to deal with for implimentors of programming languages) this isn't the case, and there is a difference between operators and functions.

foxyshadis · 2005-11-08 Reply Admin

Jeff S:
Ytram:
In my opinion, for all practical purposes, an operator is a function.

When I write an operator overload in C#, it looks like this:

public static bool operator ==(ObjectName x,ObjectName y)
{
 // Do whatever to determine equality
}

Looks like a function to me.

OK ... boy, do I feel clueless, I am just not getting most of these posts. Is your point

A) C# let's you overload operators with functions ! It's a neat language!

B) "Using VB is the WTF!"

C) Operators and functions are the same thing in all languages !

Can you help me out?

What the hell, Jeff, are you pissed about friday so now you're trolling people in this thread?

As for short-circuiting, it would not be inconceivable that an overridden logical operator could refrain from calling its second or third argument if the first or second evaluates to true. Evaluation of argument's isn't set down in the physical laws of the universe. This would require a bit of compiler magic, but if you hadn't noticed, compilers are really very good at that. (Although if you wanted speed you'd have to inline the function everywhere.)

Anonymous:
That's how you define the operator, but you invoke it like this:

if (x == y){
// yada, yada
};

not

if ==(x, y){
// yada, yada
};

[H]

Do you honestly not understand the concept of syntactic sugar?

RevMike · 2005-11-08 Reply Admin

frosty:
Anonymous:
The German adds a nice touch.[H]

Maybe the Germans shouldn't be allowed to develope anything computer related.

I'm guessing you've worked with SAP.

RevMike · 2005-11-08 Reply Admin

Richard Nixon:
Anonymous:
We Germans are good at computing... err... at least sometimes... I think you just should not let any German older than 30 do programming work, they tend to do it the "old school style"

Who else would you like to arbitrarily exclude with a crazy rule? Gypsies? Jews? Homosexuals? Did I miss any of your usual targets?

Sincerely,

Richard Nixon

How about CS graduates?

{RevMike now retreats to a secure location a safe distance away, from which he can watch the entertainment progress.}

RevMike · 2005-11-08 Reply Admin

foxyshadis:
As for short-circuiting, it would not be inconceivable that an overridden logical operator could refrain from calling its second or third argument if the first or second evaluates to true. Evaluation of argument's isn't set down in the physical laws of the universe. This would require a bit of compiler magic, but if you hadn't noticed, compilers are really very good at that. (Although if you wanted speed you'd have to inline the function everywhere.)

--snipped material

Do you honestly not understand the concept of syntactic sugar?

Short circuit evaluation isn;t something you just write into the compiler. Sure, from a technical standpoint, it is a relatively straight compiler change. However, short circuiting should really be defined as part of the language spec.

Normally, syntactic sugar can be added to a language without breaking existing code. Modifying behaviour to short circuit is going to break lots of things.

Jeff S · 2005-11-08 Reply Admin

foxyshadis:
Jeff S:

Ytram:
In my opinion, for all practical purposes, an operator is a function.

When I write an operator overload in C#, it looks like this:

public static bool operator ==(ObjectName x,ObjectName y)
{
 // Do whatever to determine equality
}

Looks like a function to me.

OK ... boy, do I feel clueless, I am just not getting most of these posts. Is your point

A) C# let's you overload operators with functions ! It's a neat language!

B) "Using VB is the WTF!"

C) Operators and functions are the same thing in all languages !

Can you help me out?

What the hell, Jeff, are you pissed about friday so now you're trolling people in this thread?

Actually, no .. the surrogate key debate went quite well. In fact, it was a pretty good discussion overall -- very little flaming, very little trolling, most of the posters were pretty open minded and some people even learned a little bit about data modelling. That thread left me feeling pretty good, to be honest.

As for trolling -- I was responding to a typical vb-programming bash. Did you feel his statement "iif() is a bad idea" didn't require clarification? To me, not only did it not make sense, but was a typically ignorant "VB is the WTF!" comment. Claiming that a function is "a bad idea" because it doesn't short-circuit kinda rules out most of the functions I've ever used, I'm afraid!

I do admit I am a little loopy today -- I stayed up too late last night watching the Pats lose to Indy. Ugh.

2005-11-08 Reply Admin

vb has the operators AndAlso and OrElse that do short circuiting

sao · 2005-11-08 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
vb has the operators AndAlso and OrElse that do short circuiting

'OrElse' sounds a little agressive doesnt it?

I know if someone called that func... sorry, 'operator' , on me, I would comply.

olddog · 2005-11-08 Reply Admin

Okay...somebody help me. Do I use my Unbound Blaster to save the Unit people or do I use the Unit Blaster to bind the masses of Unbound people. And if I read these reports, do I get extra strength?

This is a game screen - right?

Yikes. Somebody's got far better focus than I do. This would make me faint if I had to deal with this.

Drak · 2005-11-09 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
vb has the operators AndAlso and OrElse that do short circuiting

VB.Net does, VB6 and VBA don't as far as I know.

Drak

2005-11-09 Reply Admin

Bachsprung durch Technik!

brazzy · 2005-11-09 Reply Admin

Richard Nixon:
Anonymous:
We Germans are good at computing... err... at least sometimes... I think you just should not let any German older than 30 do programming work, they tend to do it the "old school style"

Who else would you like to arbitrarily exclude with a crazy rule? Gypsies? Jews? Homosexuals? Did I miss any of your usual targets?

Sincerely,

Richard Nixon

How about all Germans, as suggested by several people here?

Yay for racism, alive and kicking, ready to show up at the drop of a hat!

brazzy · 2005-11-09 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
Bachsprung durch Technik!

And how the hell does classical music factor into it?

Or did you mean looking at this makes you want to jump into the next creek (German: Bach) in order to wash off the foulness? I guess that makes sense...

2005-11-09 Reply Admin

I always find great ideas at TDWTF to use in my programs, with wich I can charge extra for support and "optimization" [A], but doing something like this requires going waaay too far from sanity[:S]

RevMike · 2005-11-09 Reply Admin

brazzy:
Richard Nixon:
Anonymous:
We Germans are good at computing... err... at least sometimes... I think you just should not let any German older than 30 do programming work, they tend to do it the "old school style"

Who else would you like to arbitrarily exclude with a crazy rule? Gypsies? Jews? Homosexuals? Did I miss any of your usual targets?

Sincerely,

Richard Nixon

How about all Germans, as suggested by several people here?

Yay for racism, alive and kicking, ready to show up at the drop of a hat!

You guys need to take it down a notch. People are just having a little fun. Germans don't have a particular history as victims of racism that should cause us to be expecially sensitive.

2005-11-09 Reply Admin

Well all I can say is....

Vorsprung Durch Technik - Nicht!

brazzy · 2005-11-09 Reply Admin

RevMike:
You guys need to take it down a notch. People are just having a little fun. Germans don't have a particular history as victims of racism that should cause us to be expecially sensitive.

It may have been somewhat funny at the first suggestion, mostly because at the heart of it, equating competence in programming with something as meaningless as nationality is downright ridiculous. Certainly funny when combined with particular references such as SAP or marketing slogans. Not so much when five people hop on with nothing to add. Not at all when in the same thread you're suddenly all but outright and collectively called Nazis because somone suggested that older programmers have weird habits, something that a lot of people here would probably agree with if there had been no German words in the screenshots.

Or, in other words, how would you (assuming that you're American) feel about the following exchange:

Non-American A: look at this horrible code!

Non-American B: Hey, there's a US address in it. Figures, those Americans suck at coding.

Non-American C: Yeah, they shouldn't be allowed to code.

Non-American D: Or near a computer at all.

American: Hey, we're actually good at it, although those Purdue graduates do suck.

Non-American E: Purdue graduates, eh? What's next, blacks, indians, mexicans? A computer tax the whites don't have to pay? public lynchings? Did I miss any of your usual methods?

2005-11-09 Reply Admin

Jesus tapdancing christ! That is TRULY awful

stevekj · 2005-11-09 Reply Admin

thedarkknight:
More often than not when I had to deal with German software vendors, their products turned out to be complete crap under the hood.

How is this different from software from vendors of any other nationality?

In my experience, most software turns out to be complete crap under the hood. It's just really hard to make something of the complexity of a standard software project, while working under temporal and financial constraints, and not have it turn out to be complete crap.

(And WTF is with this forum software anyway? How come whenever I go to quote someone, the quotee comes up as "Anonymous"??)

Richard Nixon · 2005-11-09 Reply Admin

brazzy:
RevMike:
You guys need to take it down a notch. People are just having a little fun. Germans don't have a particular history as victims of racism that should cause us to be expecially sensitive.

It may have been somewhat funny at the first suggestion, mostly because at the heart of it, equating competence in programming with something as meaningless as nationality is downright ridiculous. Certainly funny when combined with particular references such as SAP or marketing slogans. Not so much when five people hop on with nothing to add. Not at all when in the same thread you're suddenly all but outright and collectively called Nazis because somone suggested that older programmers have weird habits, something that a lot of people here would probably agree with if there had been no German words in the screenshots.

Or, in other words, how would you (assuming that you're American) feel about the following exchange:

Non-American A: look at this horrible code!

Non-American B: Hey, there's a US address in it. Figures, those Americans suck at coding.

Non-American C: Yeah, they shouldn't be allowed to code.

Non-American D: Or near a computer at all.

American: Hey, we're actually good at it, although those Purdue graduates do suck.

Non-American E: Purdue graduates, eh? What's next, blacks, indians, mexicans? A computer tax the whites don't have to pay? public lynchings? Did I miss any of your usual methods?

Judging a programmer on his age (as was done originally and you seem to be defending) or his nationality is stupid. Programmers should be judged on their code, not on things they have no control over.

End of discussion.

Sincerely,

Richard Nixon

RevMike · 2005-11-09 Reply Admin

brazzy:
RevMike:
You guys need to take it down a notch. People are just having a little fun. Germans don't have a particular history as victims of racism that should cause us to be expecially sensitive.

It may have been somewhat funny at the first suggestion, mostly because at the heart of it, equating competence in programming with something as meaningless as nationality is downright ridiculous. Certainly funny when combined with particular references such as SAP or marketing slogans. Not so much when five people hop on with nothing to add. Not at all when in the same thread you're suddenly all but outright and collectively called Nazis because somone suggested that older programmers have weird habits, something that a lot of people here would probably agree with if there had been no German words in the screenshots.

Or, in other words, how would you (assuming that you're American) feel about the following exchange:

Non-American A: look at this horrible code!

Non-American B: Hey, there's a US address in it. Figures, those Americans suck at coding.

Non-American C: Yeah, they shouldn't be allowed to code.

Non-American D: Or near a computer at all.

American: Hey, we're actually good at it, although those Purdue graduates do suck.

Non-American E: Purdue graduates, eh? What's next, blacks, indians, mexicans? A computer tax the whites don't have to pay? public lynchings? Did I miss any of your usual methods?

First of all, the original "Don't let a German over 30" comment was made by someone who self identifies as a German.

I don't know German, so maybe some of this is in the German language comments, but I only counted one broadly anti-German Programmer comment from someone who identifies themself and one from an anonymous user. Everything else was pretty innocuous.

I don't see the anything in here that falls just short of calling Germans Nazis. The Nazi implication comes from Richard Nixon's defense of Germans.

For the record, Germans have a well deserved reputation for incredibly good engineering, but they also have a reputation for very high levels of complexity, sometimes excessive complexity. The Japanese also have a deserved reputation for incredibly good engineering, often by relentlessly and incrementally improving foreign originated designs, making them more and more reliable while cutting manufacturing costs. Americans have a reputation for being very good at creating innovative designs, but are far more likely to waste time and resources developing new innovative designs when existing established engineering is more than good enough.

These, of course, are extremely broad statements. There is a broad historical basis for these, but how well they apply in 2005 or will apply in 2025 is up for debate.

brazzy · 2005-11-09 Reply Admin

Richard Nixon:
Judging a programmer on his age (as was done originally and you seem to be defending) or his nationality is stupid. Programmers should be judged on their code, not on things they have no control over.

End of discussion.

A-men.

I didn't intend to defend judging programmers by their age, but what the guy you replied to meant by "old skool" is (I think) this: programming is a relatively young profession and has changed tremendously over its short lifetime. Furthermore, people in general tend to be set in their ways, prefer what they're used to to and distrust big changes. As a result, older programmers are often (certainly not always) those who program procedurally in OO languages or lobby for the backend to stay on mainframes because microcomputer hardware can't be trusted (a real problem at my current workplace and no, the mainframes are NOT more reliable; far from it).

Fun anecdote: A year or two ago we had a guy at a LAN party who programmed mainframes at work. It was apparently the first time he saw a modern computer game, and he was totally amazed at what he saw. He did own a modern notebook that he used at work - he used it to connect to the mainframes via a terminal program and had apparently never fathomed its technical cpabilities.

RevMike · 2005-11-09 Reply Admin

brazzy:
... people in general tend to be set in their ways, prefer what they're used to to and distrust big changes. As a result, older programmers are often (certainly not always) those who program procedurally in OO languages or lobby for the backend to stay on mainframes because microcomputer hardware can't be trusted (a real problem at my current workplace and no, the mainframes are NOT more reliable; far from it).

My personal favorites are the COBOL flat-file programmers who use flat file designs in relational databases. If I had a nickel for every mess like that I needed to unravel... I also deal with some DB2 SQL developers who are completely baffled by the fact that the SQL dialect in Sybase or Oracle is slightly different. I'm not talking about big differences here, but things like the COALESCE function.

The problem has little to do with age. Some people are completely un-interested in learning new things, while others are passionate about it. In 25 years we'll be dealing with programmers who still do things a certain way because they learned it in Java and want to treat every environment as if it were Java. These people simply don't stick out right now because, although they are stagnant, their skills are current.

2005-11-09 Reply Admin

AAA! My eyes are bleeding.

2005-11-09 Reply Admin

HOLY CRAP! This is the WTFest WTF of all WTFs I've ever seen!

brazzy · 2005-11-09 Reply Admin

RevMike:
First of all, the original "Don't let a German over 30" comment was made by someone who self identifies as a German.

That's the equivalent of the "Purdue graduates suck" in my scenario, the ones before that were meant to correspond to postings from frosty and thedarkknight loosely. OK, there's only two, not five. I wouldn't have made a fuss were it not for the double whammy from RN.

RevMike:
I don't see the anything in here that falls just short of calling Germans Nazis. The Nazi implication comes from Richard Nixon's defense of Germans.

You call this a "defense of Germans"???:

Richard Nixon:
Gypsies? Jews? Homosexuals? Did I miss any of your usual targets?

It may have just been a thoughtless comment (does that make it better?), it may be that as a German, I'm a bit over-sensitive in that area, but unless the "boy from germany" has a personal history of discriminating agains gypsies, Jews and homosexuals that RN somehow knows about, that's a collective "you" and implies a lack of difference between current Germans (most of whom were born after the war; heck, my parents were) and the Nazis.

2005-11-09 Reply Admin

Usually we don't develop anything computer related in Germany anymore because german IT experts are to expensive. Instead we hire Rumanian or Indian people for that and some unpaid trainee translates the static texts afterwards.

2005-11-09 Reply Admin

This is soo true :-(

Ytram · 2005-11-09 Reply Admin

Jeff Stephanopolous:
As for trolling -- I was responding to a typical vb-programming bash.

I wasn't bashing VB!

Although if you give me the right incentive, I could very easily bash it [;)]

RevMike · 2005-11-09 Reply Admin

brazzy:
RevMike:
First of all, the original "Don't let a German over 30" comment was made by someone who self identifies as a German.

That's the equivalent of the "Purdue graduates suck" in my scenario, the ones before that were meant to correspond to postings from frosty and thedarkknight loosely. OK, there's only two, not five. I wouldn't have made a fuss were it not for the double whammy from RN.

RevMike:
I don't see the anything in here that falls just short of calling Germans Nazis. The Nazi implication comes from Richard Nixon's defense of Germans.

You call this a "defense of Germans"???:

Richard Nixon:
Gypsies? Jews? Homosexuals? Did I miss any of your usual targets?

It may have just been a thoughtless comment (does that make it better?), it may be that as a German, I'm a bit over-sensitive in that area, but unless the "boy from germany" has a personal history of discriminating agains gypsies, Jews and homosexuals that RN somehow knows about, that's a collective "you" and implies a lack of difference between current Germans (most of whom were born after the war; heck, my parents were) and the Nazis.

I was confused by this and re-read RN's comments. I originally read it as a general "making statements that Germans shouldn't program is racist" comment. Now that I re-read it I see that RN was making an attack on a German that is at least insensitive, if not down-right racist in itself. I don't agree with that, and I apologize if I offended you due to my mistaken reading of that.

While I don't think that making fun of a German programming acumen is particularly offensive, calling a German (or anyone, for that matter) a Nazi (unless they actually are) is quite offensive.

2005-11-09 Reply Admin

I think the real WTF is "Alex is off vacationing in Detroit today". I've never been there, but I hear it's terrible. Can you post pictures so I can see it?

RevMike · 2005-11-09 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
I think the real WTF is "Alex is off vacationing in Detroit today". I've never been there, but I hear it's terrible. Can you post pictures so I can see it?

Since we are on this topic...

The coach had put together the perfect team for the Detroit Lions. The only thing missing was a great quarterback. He had scouted all the colleges and even the Canadian and European Leagues, but he couldn't find one who could ensure a Super Bowl victory.
Then one night, while tuning in to FOX News, he saw a war-zone scene in Afghanistan. In one corner of the background, he spotted a young Afghan soldier with a truly incredible arm. He threw a hand-grenade straight into a window from 80 yards away. Then he threw another from 50 yards down a chimney, and then hit a passing car going 80 miles per hour.
"I've got to get this guy!" the coach said to himself. "He has the perfect arm!"
He finds him brings the young Afghan to the States and teaches him the great game of American professional football, and sure enough the Lions go on to win the Super Bowl. The young Afghan is hailed as a hero of football and when the coach asks him what he wants, all the young man wants to do is call his mother.
"Mom," he says into the phone, "I just won the Super Bowl."
"I don't want to talk to you," the old Muslim woman says. "You deserted us. You are not my son!"
"Mother, you don't understand," pleads the son, "I've just won the greatest sporting event in the world!"
"No, let me tell you!" his mother says. "At this very moment there are gun shots all around us. The neighborhood is a pile of rubble. Your two brothers were beaten within an inch of their lives last week, and I have to keep your sister in the house so she doesn't get raped!"
The old lady pauses then tearfully says, " I will never forgive you for moving us to Detroit!"

Richard Nixon · 2005-11-09 Reply Admin

RevMike:
brazzy:
RevMike:
First of all, the original "Don't let a German over 30" comment was made by someone who self identifies as a German.

That's the equivalent of the "Purdue graduates suck" in my scenario, the ones before that were meant to correspond to postings from frosty and thedarkknight loosely. OK, there's only two, not five. I wouldn't have made a fuss were it not for the double whammy from RN.

RevMike:
I don't see the anything in here that falls just short of calling Germans Nazis. The Nazi implication comes from Richard Nixon's defense of Germans.

You call this a "defense of Germans"???:

Richard Nixon:
Gypsies? Jews? Homosexuals? Did I miss any of your usual targets?

It may have just been a thoughtless comment (does that make it better?), it may be that as a German, I'm a bit over-sensitive in that area, but unless the "boy from germany" has a personal history of discriminating agains gypsies, Jews and homosexuals that RN somehow knows about, that's a collective "you" and implies a lack of difference between current Germans (most of whom were born after the war; heck, my parents were) and the Nazis.

I was confused by this and re-read RN's comments. I originally read it as a general "making statements that Germans shouldn't program is racist" comment. Now that I re-read it I see that RN was making an attack on a German that is at least insensitive, if not down-right racist in itself. I don't agree with that, and I apologize if I offended you due to my mistaken reading of that.

While I don't think that making fun of a German programming acumen is particularly offensive, calling a German (or anyone, for that matter) a Nazi (unless they actually are) is quite offensive.

The fact of the matter was that the German was discriminating against someone because of age. This is just as short-sighted and foolish as discriminating against someone based on race or religion. So I took a shot at him. Notice that I didn't say all Germans were prejudiced. I didn't even mention the fact that he was German. I said, "your usual targets" - implying that this person was prejudiced against many groups of people based on the prejudice that he hada already demonstrated.

If you think I am racist because I pointed out the foolishness of someone's prejudice (and compared that prejudice to prejudice against other groups) then you're far more stupid than I had originally thought.

Honestly, I expect an apology. I did not say anything racist. I never once mentioned anyone's race.

Sincerely,

Richard Nixon

kipthegreat · 2005-11-09 Reply Admin

Richard Nixon:
RevMike:
brazzy:
RevMike:
First of all, the original "Don't let a German over 30" comment was made by someone who self identifies as a German.

That's the equivalent of the "Purdue graduates suck" in my scenario, the ones before that were meant to correspond to postings from frosty and thedarkknight loosely. OK, there's only two, not five. I wouldn't have made a fuss were it not for the double whammy from RN.

RevMike:
I don't see the anything in here that falls just short of calling Germans Nazis. The Nazi implication comes from Richard Nixon's defense of Germans.

You call this a "defense of Germans"???:

Richard Nixon:
Gypsies? Jews? Homosexuals? Did I miss any of your usual targets?

It may have just been a thoughtless comment (does that make it better?), it may be that as a German, I'm a bit over-sensitive in that area, but unless the "boy from germany" has a personal history of discriminating agains gypsies, Jews and homosexuals that RN somehow knows about, that's a collective "you" and implies a lack of difference between current Germans (most of whom were born after the war; heck, my parents were) and the Nazis.

I was confused by this and re-read RN's comments. I originally read it as a general "making statements that Germans shouldn't program is racist" comment. Now that I re-read it I see that RN was making an attack on a German that is at least insensitive, if not down-right racist in itself. I don't agree with that, and I apologize if I offended you due to my mistaken reading of that.

While I don't think that making fun of a German programming acumen is particularly offensive, calling a German (or anyone, for that matter) a Nazi (unless they actually are) is quite offensive.

The fact of the matter was that the German was discriminating against someone because of age. This is just as short-sighted and foolish as discriminating against someone based on race or religion. So I took a shot at him. Notice that I didn't say all Germans were prejudiced. I didn't even mention the fact that he was German. I said, "your usual targets" - implying that this person was prejudiced against many groups of people based on the prejudice that he hada already demonstrated.

If you think I am racist because I pointed out the foolishness of someone's prejudice (and compared that prejudice to prejudice against other groups) then you're far more stupid than I had originally thought.

Honestly, I expect an apology. I did not say anything racist. I never once mentioned anyone's race.

Sincerely,

Richard Nixon

Can't we all just get along?

RevMike · 2005-11-09 Reply Admin

Richard Nixon:
RevMike:
brazzy:
RevMike:
First of all, the original "Don't let a German over 30" comment was made by someone who self identifies as a German.

That's the equivalent of the "Purdue graduates suck" in my scenario, the ones before that were meant to correspond to postings from frosty and thedarkknight loosely. OK, there's only two, not five. I wouldn't have made a fuss were it not for the double whammy from RN.

RevMike:
I don't see the anything in here that falls just short of calling Germans Nazis. The Nazi implication comes from Richard Nixon's defense of Germans.

You call this a "defense of Germans"???:

Richard Nixon:
Gypsies? Jews? Homosexuals? Did I miss any of your usual targets?

It may have just been a thoughtless comment (does that make it better?), it may be that as a German, I'm a bit over-sensitive in that area, but unless the "boy from germany" has a personal history of discriminating agains gypsies, Jews and homosexuals that RN somehow knows about, that's a collective "you" and implies a lack of difference between current Germans (most of whom were born after the war; heck, my parents were) and the Nazis.

I was confused by this and re-read RN's comments. I originally read it as a general "making statements that Germans shouldn't program is racist" comment. Now that I re-read it I see that RN was making an attack on a German that is at least insensitive, if not down-right racist in itself. I don't agree with that, and I apologize if I offended you due to my mistaken reading of that.

While I don't think that making fun of a German programming acumen is particularly offensive, calling a German (or anyone, for that matter) a Nazi (unless they actually are) is quite offensive.

The fact of the matter was that the German was discriminating against someone because of age. This is just as short-sighted and foolish as discriminating against someone based on race or religion. So I took a shot at him. Notice that I didn't say all Germans were prejudiced. I didn't even mention the fact that he was German. I said, "your usual targets" - implying that this person was prejudiced against many groups of people based on the prejudice that he hada already demonstrated.

If you think I am racist because I pointed out the foolishness of someone's prejudice (and compared that prejudice to prejudice against other groups) then you're far more stupid than I had originally thought.

Honestly, I expect an apology. I did not say anything racist. I never once mentioned anyone's race.

Sincerely,

Richard Nixon

Richard, that explanation is a WTF. You responded to someone who had just identified themself as a German with the phrase "your usual targets", then rattled off a list of three groups that were major victims of the Holocaust (you left out the Slavs and the handicapped). You must think we are morons if you expect us to not understand that as a Nazi reference. If you had said, Jews, Gays, and then Blacks, Koreans, Armenians, Chinese, Irish, or any other groups that have been victims of non-Nazi racism you might have a defense.

I refuse to apologize. I said that you may be a racist or that you may have made insensitive remarks. I stand by that. You called a German a Nazi because he made an off-the-cuff remark about older programmers. You make a technial argument that you aren't a racist. For the sake of argument here, racist is potentially not the best word. Lets settle on bigot.

Richard Nixon · 2005-11-09 Reply Admin

RevMike:

Richard, that explanation is a WTF. You responded to someone who had just identified themself as a German with the phrase "your usual targets", then rattled off a list of three groups that were major victims of the Holocaust (you left out the Slavs and the handicapped). You must think we are morons if you expect us to not understand that as a Nazi reference. If you had said, Jews, Gays, and then Blacks, Koreans, Armenians, Chinese, Irish, or any other groups that have been victims of non-Nazi racism you might have a defense.

I refuse to apologize. I said that you may be a racist or that you may have made insensitive remarks. I stand by that. You called a German a Nazi because he made an off-the-cuff remark about older programmers. You make a technial argument that you aren't a racist. For the sake of argument here, racist is potentially not the best word. Lets settle on bigot.

Mike, I do not think you are that intelligent so, yes, you got me there.
Let's assume that your statement is correct and that I believe all Germans are Nazis. That would make me a bigot.
Now, with that assumption having been made, the original poster who I replied to is also a bigot since he believes all old people are poor programmers. Furthermore, in our assumed fantasy land, I made no statements about limiting the rights of Germans, whereas the original poster wants to limit the rights of older citizens. So, still in that assumed fantasy land, my totalitarian rule will be much more gentle.

Now - I am of the opinion that you're never going to see the light here but I'm going to try anyway - the Nazis are almost universally accepted as an evil force in the world who demonstrated blind hatred for groups without any cause. Thus, when someone is being prejudiced against a group (but not a group of people that are often defended) comparing that prejudice to the prejudice demonstrated by the Nazis is a very effective way to show them just how foolish their thinking is. See, you're stupid because you can't see the facts that led to the conclusion.

You think I thought:
1. This guy is German.
2. He must be a Nazi.

When in fact, I thought:
1. This guy is a bigot against old people.
2. Perhaps he'll see how stupid that is if I compare him to the behavior of the Nazis.

Do I think all Germans are Nazis? No, of course not.
Are you debating skills and discussion techniques too refined and thoughtful for you to understand? I think the answer is obvious.

You can refute none of the above. Your continued claim that I am a racist is just plain stupid. I don't ever expect an apology from you since you've shown you can't understand quite simple things.

Sincerely,

Richard Nixon

Richard Nixon · 2005-11-09 Reply Admin

RevMike:

Richard, that explanation is a WTF. You responded to someone who had just identified themself as a German with the phrase "your usual targets", then rattled off a list of three groups that were major victims of the Holocaust (you left out the Slavs and the handicapped). You must think we are morons if you expect us to not understand that as a Nazi reference. If you had said, Jews, Gays, and then Blacks, Koreans, Armenians, Chinese, Irish, or any other groups that have been victims of non-Nazi racism you might have a defense.

I refuse to apologize. I said that you may be a racist or that you may have made insensitive remarks. I stand by that. You called a German a Nazi because he made an off-the-cuff remark about older programmers. You make a technial argument that you aren't a racist. For the sake of argument here, racist is potentially not the best word. Lets settle on bigot.

By the way Mike, is it still an off-the-cuff remark to say that Jews should not be allowed to program?

[Yes, you are this stupid.]

Sincerely,

Richard Nixon

Manni · 2005-11-09 Reply Admin

The Sexy Ytram Beasy:
Jeff Stethescope:
As for trolling -- I was responding to a typical vb-programming bash.

I wasn't bashing VB!

Although if you give me the right incentive, I could very easily bash it [;)]

I've got a crisp, new George Washington right here for ya...do you think that is enough incentive? I could easily add a Sacagawea to sweeten the deal.

And for the record Jeff S, I wasn't bashing VB either, it's basically the only language I know really well. If you want clarification, how about this:

IIf is a function that deals entirely with variant data types, thereby making the results unpredictable. In addition, there's the argument I made before that if you supply two functions as the true and false options, it will execute both. It may look prettier (sometimes) but for safety's sake, I say stick with having an If..Then..Else structure.

RevMike · 2005-11-09 Reply Admin

Richard Nixon:
RevMike:

Richard, that explanation is a WTF. You responded to someone who had just identified themself as a German with the phrase "your usual targets", then rattled off a list of three groups that were major victims of the Holocaust (you left out the Slavs and the handicapped). You must think we are morons if you expect us to not understand that as a Nazi reference. If you had said, Jews, Gays, and then Blacks, Koreans, Armenians, Chinese, Irish, or any other groups that have been victims of non-Nazi racism you might have a defense.

I refuse to apologize. I said that you may be a racist or that you may have made insensitive remarks. I stand by that. You called a German a Nazi because he made an off-the-cuff remark about older programmers. You make a technial argument that you aren't a racist. For the sake of argument here, racist is potentially not the best word. Lets settle on bigot.

By the way Mike, is it still an off-the-cuff remark to say that Jews should not be allowed to program?

[Yes, you are this stupid.]

Sincerely,

Richard Nixon

I'm not aware of any history of bigotry targeting Jewish programmers. Are you advocating that no one ever again making a broad sweeping generalization about any group, no matter how defined, on this site again? Hell, the comment counts will drop to single digits.

Apparently you are too stupid to understand that the impact of these sweeping generalizations is tempered or intensified by historical context. Stating that Germans over 30 shouldn't do database programming because they do it "old school" is far different than stating that a someone is a Nazi. Let me also state for the record that the statement "the University of Colorodo graduates idiots" is different than saying that blacks should be bought ans sold as chattel, that "VB is a pox on the face of computing", is different than saying that "Fags should be denied AIDS treatment."

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