The Daily WTF: Curious Perversions in Information Technology

ObiWayneKenobi · 2013-05-08 Reply Admin

At least the interviewer was able to out the crook, or this would have been another Paula Bean like story. Although it makes you wonder, if the guy was project lead at his old company, COULD he actually code? Was he just some incompetent nitwit who was trying to BS his way into a better job, or something else?

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

Most likely he had actually delivered some project put together with duct tape, bailing wire, some bubble gum, and tons of copy/paste code from whatever Google results produced.

He managed to twist the arms of the folks doing the code review; or gave them said puppy dog eyes and sob story about how he really needs this one but there have been problems at home and he'll get it fixed in the next deployment cycle really...

Management is/was happy enough for the moment but he knew if he hung around much longer was going to be exposed.

Dogsworth · 2013-05-08 Reply Admin

Fred sounds like some of the contractors we get.

Quango · 2013-05-08 Reply Admin

ALWAYS test candidates' coding ability. Jeff Attwood's article http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2007/02/why-cant-programmers-program.html is six years old and still holds.

I interviewed one guy who spent over an hour trying to write a FizzBuzz routine. He had a masters degree in CS.

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

That's why economists call it "market for lemons".

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

One can make a comment with

But it is visible in the page source code in browser.

(Note: This comment was copied from Stackoverflow)

Remy Porter · 2013-05-08 Reply Admin

My initial instinct was to say, "a fizzbuzz algorithm is way too easy for a coding test," but y'know what? Apparently I'm wrong.

It's almost a one-liner in a number of different languages.

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

TRWTF was that he made it that far into the interview. He doesn't know what a URL is, and just read out the internet.

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

Quango:
ALWAYS test candidates' coding ability. Jeff Attwood's article http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2007/02/why-cant-programmers-program.html is six years old and still holds.
I interviewed one guy who spent over an hour trying to write a FizzBuzz routine. He had a masters degree in CS.

Masters degree doesn't really mean much. I had someone working with me previously that had a masters in IT from one of the top UK universities. Couldn't even setup a docking station...

henke37 · 2013-05-08 Reply Admin

Now I want to know what the question he plagiarized was.

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

I was about to say something about how unpolite is to hang the phone without thanking him for its time, but I didn't found any example in Stack Overflow. So I'm going to post the question there and put the UML of the answer here. Or is it the YRL?

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

I assume you meant cheats, not cheetahs?

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

Obligatory https://xkcd.com/1185/

alt-text: "StackSort connects to StackOverflow, searches for 'Sort a list', and downloads and runs code snippets until the list is sorted"

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

        int[] arr1 = { 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 };
        int[] arr2 = { 1, 5, 10, 11 };
        int[] arr3 = new int[arr1.Length + arr2.Length];

        foreach (int i in arr1)
        {
            if (!arr2.Contains(i))
            {
                int newlength = arr2.Length + 1;
                Array.Resize<int>(ref arr2, newlength);
                arr2[newlength - 1] = i;
            }
        }

        Array.Sort(arr2);
        Array.Resize<int>(ref arr3, arr2.Length);
        
        arr3 = arr2;

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

CS != programming.

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

Sounds like most permies at clients I've done work for. ;)

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

Remy Porter:
My initial instinct was to say, "a fizzbuzz algorithm is way too easy for a coding test," but y'know what? Apparently I'm wrong.
It's almost a one-liner in a number of different languages.

Not in java. Well not done properly:

https://github.com/Mikkeren/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition

https://github.com/Mikkeren/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition/blob/master/src/main/java/com/seriouscompany/business/java/fizzbuzz/packagenamingpackage/impl/FizzBuzz.java

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

<?php $arr1 = array( "test", "test2", "test3", "test4", ); $arr2 = array( "test1", "test2", "test3", "test4", "test5", ); $arr3 = array_merge($arr1, $arr2); $arr3 = array_unique($arr3); ?>

tharpa · 2013-05-08 Reply Admin

Don:
[Masters degree doesn't really mean much. I had someone working with me previously that had a masters in IT from one of the top UK universities. Couldn't even setup a docking station...

Hmm. I guess you're right. I have an M.S. and 6 years programming experience. I don't even know what a docking station is, let alone be able to set one up (though I could probably figure it out without too much trouble). Isn't a docking station one of those things on Star Trek?

I think this illustrates one of the risks of evaluating fellow programmers that we see here fairly often - one thinks that the information one uses every day is something that all programmers use every day, and/or is innate.

I also don't like Atwood's article at http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/07/separating-programming-sheep-from-non-programming-goats.html. I can imagine a person with programming potential (but who's never seen a line of code before) who's never been taught about assignment, and certainly has never been taught about the perverse way that C-family programmers use the equals sign, who would just see the third line in the code there, would think it was an error and/or that the test givers were morons, and wouldn't be able to get beyond that unless they were given those critical pieces of information.

dkf · 2013-05-08 Reply Admin

Bring Back TopCod3r:
https://github.com/Mikkeren/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition/blob/master/src/main/java/com/seriouscompany/business/java/fizzbuzz/packagenamingpackage/impl/FizzBuzz.java

Not enterprisey enough. Still too many pieces are hard-coded. The code needs to use some other configuration layer written in some other language, no, in XML, to stitch the pieces together from services published in JNDI or OSGi or something like that.

I wish I was joking about this.

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

How is this not classified as a 'Tales of the Interview'?

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

TRWTF is the noobs that think this is SO and post their own non-joke solutions to the problem mentioned in the article.

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

Bring Back TopCod3r:
https://github.com/Mikkeren/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition/blob/master/src/main/java/com/seriouscompany/business/java/fizzbuzz/packagenamingpackage/impl/FizzBuzz.java

You laugh, you lose. I lost it at the block of import statements.

Zemm · 2013-05-08 Reply Admin

Don:
I had someone working with me previously that had a masters in IT from one of the top UK universities. Couldn't even setup a docking station...

I replaced a guy with a degree in Information Systems. First day he couldn't get his computer to work. It hadn't been plugged in yet. Then he couldn't write a SELECT query (from a single table). The mind boggles.

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

[quote user="tharpa"][quote user="Don"] I also don't like Atwood's article at http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/07/separating-programming-sheep-from-non-programming-goats.html. I can imagine a person with programming potential (but who's never seen a line of code before) who's never been taught about assignment, and certainly has never been taught about the perverse way that C-family programmers use the equals sign, who would just see the third line in the code there, would think it was an error and/or that the test givers were morons, and wouldn't be able to get beyond that unless they were given those critical pieces of information.[/quote]

You may not like it, but they were looking at students before and after instruction. Once assignment has been explained and you still don't get it, well then you aren't going to be a programmer.

I have interviewed many candidates over the years. Very rarely have the best ones had a CS degree of any kind. I honestly don't care if I see it on a resume. I look at resume, then code samples, then phone interview, if all those go well, then in-person with some programming exercises. Code samples are my main indicator of potential. Of course I go through them with the candidate to make sure it's actually their work (or at least they understand the code thoroughly enough to fake it).

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

class Program
{
    static void Main(string[] args)
    {
        for (int x = 1; x <= 100; x++)
        {
            if (x%3 == 0 && x%5 == 0)
            {
                Console.WriteLine("fizzbuzz");
            }
            else if (x%3 == 0)
            {
                Console.WriteLine("fizz");
            }
            else if (x%5 == 0)
            {
                Console.WriteLine("buzz");
            }
            else
            {
                Console.WriteLine(x);
            }
        }
        Console.ReadKey();
    }
}

where's my price?

levbor · 2013-05-08 Reply Admin

So on one hand he is totally clueless, doesn't even know what a URL is. On the other hand, he manages to google some sort of answer and to use an IDE?

Something is wrong here.

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

tharpa:
Don:
[Masters degree doesn't really mean much. I had someone working with me previously that had a masters in IT from one of the top UK universities. Couldn't even setup a docking station...

Hmm. I guess you're right. I have an M.S. and 6 years programming experience. I don't even know what a docking station is, let alone be able to set one up (though I could probably figure it out without too much trouble). Isn't a docking station one of those things on Star Trek?

I think this illustrates one of the risks of evaluating fellow programmers that we see here fairly often - one thinks that the information one uses every day is something that all programmers use every day, and/or is innate.

I also don't like Atwood's article at http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/07/separating-programming-sheep-from-non-programming-goats.html. I can imagine a person with programming potential (but who's never seen a line of code before) who's never been taught about assignment, and certainly has never been taught about the perverse way that C-family programmers use the equals sign, who would just see the third line in the code there, would think it was an error and/or that the test givers were morons, and wouldn't be able to get beyond that unless they were given those critical pieces of information.

Clearly, the return from a = b can only be one of two things: true, false, or filenotfound.

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

FizzBuzz:
where's my price?

Sorry, you failed. Unless I failed to spot the joke in your comment.

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

Several years ago I was on the interview team for a large American Bank. We interviewed dozens of people a week. There were several "senior level developers" who missed every question we asked. Even very basic questions. It became so bad that we required each candidate to submit in writing the answers to five questions before they received an phone interview.

We had two people submit the same answer to one of the questions. Including the typos. A quick online search of the question revealed the web site that provided the answer, which was not even correct. About half of the people we interviewed just copied and pasted the answers from the first few links in the search results.

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

I'm missing the "WTF"

Interview process worked - filtered out the "bad" programmers
"Bad" programmers are not really a "WTF" they exist, we all have to watch out for them...

Unless this ended with "Avi hired him anyways..." it's not a WTF IMO.

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

CookbookChef:
We had two people submit the same answer to one of the questions. Including the typos. A quick online search of the question revealed the web site that provided the answer, which was not even correct. About half of the people we interviewed just copied and pasted the answers from the first few links in the search results.

That may have been unintentional, but intentionally putting up google-able set of incorrect answers to "homework" interview questions sounds like a great way to have cheater candidates eliminate themselves.

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

Somewhat these articles help me feel better about my skills as student... Somethings I hear are bit scary, considering how much software we use...

Still, I'm not entirely sure about my prospects on job market...

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

Don:
Quango:
ALWAYS test candidates' coding ability. Jeff Attwood's article http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2007/02/why-cant-programmers-program.html is six years old and still holds.
I interviewed one guy who spent over an hour trying to write a FizzBuzz routine. He had a masters degree in CS.
Masters degree doesn't really mean much. I had someone working with me previously that had a masters in IT from one of the top UK universities. Couldn't even setup a docking station...

Pshaw! He's a Master's Degree holding developer. Setting up docking stations and doing tech repair grunt work... that's blue collar Union work.

In all seriousness, a musician doesn't know how to repair a piano, a car owner doesn't necessarily know how to change their oil, and most computer users, developers, database admins don't necessarily know how to build or setup the devices they work on (from a hardware standpoint).

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

¯\(°_o)/¯ I DUNNO LOL:
That may have been unintentional, but intentionally putting up google-able set of incorrect answers to "homework" interview questions sounds like a great way to have cheater candidates eliminate themselves.

That's a brilliant idea!

I was once responsible for reading and evaluating co-op students' work term reports at my university. You were supposed to write a 2-3 page report with a synopsis of what the company you worked for does, what you worked on, what you learned, etc.

I start reading this one student's report about his work term, and I'm not 3 sentences into his opening paragraph before I realize this all sounds very familiar. I also worked at the same company, on the same products, and I recognized the language from the company press release. So now I grab a highlighter and pull up a web browser and start comparing the work term report to known phrases in Google... 95% of the document turned out to be word-for-word copy/pasted.

ArrivingRaptor · 2013-05-08 Reply Admin

¯\(°_o)/¯ I DUNNO LOL:
Bring Back TopCod3r:
https://github.com/Mikkeren/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition/blob/master/src/main/java/com/seriouscompany/business/java/fizzbuzz/packagenamingpackage/impl/FizzBuzz.java
You laugh, you lose. I lost it at the block of import statements.

I lost it at reading "61 lines (52 sloc)".

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

emaNrouY-Here:
Don:
Quango:
ALWAYS test candidates' coding ability. Jeff Attwood's article http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2007/02/why-cant-programmers-program.html is six years old and still holds.
I interviewed one guy who spent over an hour trying to write a FizzBuzz routine. He had a masters degree in CS.
Masters degree doesn't really mean much. I had someone working with me previously that had a masters in IT from one of the top UK universities. Couldn't even setup a docking station...
Pshaw! He's a Master's Degree holding developer. Setting up docking stations and doing tech repair grunt work... that's blue collar Union work.

In all seriousness, a musician doesn't know how to repair a piano, a car owner doesn't necessarily know how to change their oil, and most computer users, developers, database admins must necessarily know how to build or setup the devices they work on (from a hardware standpoint).

FTFY -- as popular knowledge dictates.

A friend's father expected him to know how to use a polishing machine he rented just because he just had its degree in CS. Clearly he should wait until he had a Master's Degree!

People usually expects you to fix their technology (for free) if you had a remotely-related degree. If you were a physician, they'll expect you to check their health (for free as well). Some jobs are almost free of this crap, such as gravedigger or a chicken sexer.

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

what really sucks is I bet there were 100 applicants that could write the requested code, bu didnt make the top 5 like fred

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

levbor:
So on one hand he is totally clueless, doesn't even know what a URL is. On the other hand, he manages to google some sort of answer and to use an IDE?
Something is wrong here.

Several things are wrong...extreme cognitive dissonance being one of the biggest.

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

Remy Porter:
My initial instinct was to say, "a fizzbuzz algorithm is way too easy for a coding test," but y'know what? Apparently I'm wrong.
It's almost a one-liner in a number of different languages.

My 1st try:

Console.WriteLine("1, 2, Fizz, 4, Buzz, Fizz, 7, 8, Fizz, Buzz, 11, Fizz, 13, 14, Fizz Buzz, 16, 17, Fizz, 19, Buzz, Fizz, 22, 23, Fizz, Buzz, 26, Fizz, 28, 29, Fizz Buzz, 31, 32, Fizz, 34, Buzz, Fizz, ...");

...nope, it lack some

#include

My 2nd try:

... worse, has no embedded-Javascript and lack support for Google Ads.

Y'know what? I give up. Don't hire me, please.

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

LINQ (.Net 3.5+) for unique array merge:

(new HashSet<int>(Array1.Union(Array2))).ToAray()

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

.toArray

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

.ToArray

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

I get it! TRWTF is an IDE using a font that doesn't distinguish 'l' from '1', right?

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

tharpa:
I also don't like Atwood's article at http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/07/separating-programming-sheep-from-non-programming-goats.html. I can imagine a person with programming potential (but who's never seen a line of code before) who's never been taught about assignment, and certainly has never been taught about the perverse way that C-family programmers use the equals sign, who would just see the third line in the code there, would think it was an error and/or that the test givers were morons, and wouldn't be able to get beyond that unless they were given those critical pieces of information.

To play devil's advocate for a second:

If you're a hiring manager, do you want to hire someone who might have programming potential if you put in a lot of training, or do you want to decline and wait a bit longer until you get an applicant who can actually demonstrate some amount of programming proficiency already?

The first could lead to some high rewards, yes. But it's also really high risk. Do you want to take that chance?

flabdablet · 2013-05-08 Reply Admin

Remy Porter:
My initial instinct was to say, "a fizzbuzz algorithm is way too easy for a coding test," but y'know what? Apparently I'm wrong.
It's almost a one-liner in a number of different languages.

C, for instance.

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

Never hire anyone who looks up coding problems on the Internet, that's oh so such a good idea. Everyone here knows everything by heart.

And if the interviewer was so good, why didn't he spot the typo?

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

levbor:
So on one hand he is totally clueless, doesn't even know what a URL is. On the other hand, he manages to google some sort of answer and to use an IDE?
Something is wrong here.

My mom is totally clueless when it comes to computers, and would not know what a URL is despite it having been explained to her. Yet she is able to use Google, and knows that you can type things into that field at the top of the window, just under the menus. She just uses the word "address" instead of "URL", which is what most people do. People who are more technically minded, like us, are happier calling it a URL, since that's the specific type of address that it is.

Which means that telling candidates to visit a particular URL can indeed be useful for weeding out at least some of the posers.

2013-05-08 Reply Admin

ObiWayneKenobi:
Although it makes you wonder, if the guy was project lead at his old company, COULD he actually code?

After watching the guy's failed attempt at coding, why would you believe his claim to having been project lead?

tharpa · 2013-05-08 Reply Admin

Evan:
tharpa:
I also don't like Atwood's article at http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/07/separating-programming-sheep-from-non-programming-goats.html. I can imagine a person with programming potential (but who's never seen a line of code before) who's never been taught about assignment, and certainly has never been taught about the perverse way that C-family programmers use the equals sign, who would just see the third line in the code there, would think it was an error and/or that the test givers were morons, and wouldn't be able to get beyond that unless they were given those critical pieces of information.
To play devil's advocate for a second:
If you're a hiring manager, do you want to hire someone who might have programming potential if you put in a lot of training, or do you want to decline and wait a bit longer until you get an applicant who can actually demonstrate some amount of programming proficiency already?

The first could lead to some high rewards, yes. But it's also really high risk. Do you want to take that chance?

If I understand your point correctly, it is that a test to separate potential programmers from non-potential programmers could have some legitimacy. I do not dispute this. My complaint was about using such a test that used the C-language perversion of the equals sign without an explanation. I would have been consistent in my view that it was an error, and none of the answers clearly addressed that possibility. Upon reading some of the comments to that article, there were quite a few other people who made the same point. Had the writers used a different assignment operator, like :=, or used "Let" syntax, it would have been a completely different question.

Cheaters Never Prosper

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