• Andrew (unregistered)

    Should of just told the boss:

    With all due respect, I didn't know you had surgery to have your balls removed.

  • Eric Wise (unregistered)

    I'm currently working with a new hire DBA who came from environments like this. When he hired in I assured him that yes, indeed we are on flextime and no, I don't keep a punch clock. It was kind of funny that he was so skeptical coming in.

    Employees on my team work with me to set reasonable deadlines for their projects and then I expect them to hit those deadlines unless the schedule needs tweaked do to scope changes or other such things.

    It's amazing that more companies don't handle knowledge workers this way. My team is pretty productive and the business users in the company really like the work we do.

    / No, we're not currently hiring.

  • sf (unregistered) in reply to Code Dependent
    Code Dependent:
    MTS:
    Dude, nobody wears suits to interviews anymore. I haven't worn a suit to an interview since 1990.
    That might be true in Outer Podunk. Not so in the big city.
    Which city would that be? I work in the Silicon Valley/San Francisco Bay area and haven't worn a suite to interviews since around '90 either.
  • Franz Kafka (unregistered) in reply to Brad I
    Brad I:
    Sued for what? It wouldn't be disclosing trade secrets or anything. Did someone sign a contract that said they'd never disclose the company's abusive employee policies?

    Seems to me they'd want to keep that type of information out of the courts and public record.

    The only reason for someone to get sued is if the story isn't true.

    No, lots of people will sue or threaten a lawsuit if you say bad things about them. Even if you're right, it costs money to hire lawyers, and you could lose anyway.

  • Aumatar (unregistered) in reply to Franz Kafka
    Franz Kafka:
    Code Dependent:
    MTS:
    Dude, nobody wears suits to interviews anymore. I haven't worn a suit to an interview since 1990.
    That might be true in Outer Podunk. Not so in the big city.

    So come to the small city - Seattle doesn't do dress codes unless you work sales.

    Its an east coast thing. West coast doesn't do suits.

  • (cs) in reply to sf
    sf:
    Which city would that be? I work in the Silicon Valley/San Francisco Bay area and haven't worn a suite to interviews since around '90 either.
    Dallas. When I moved here in 2000, I put my resume up on Monster and of course immediately heard from a dozen head-hunters. I interviewed with four of them, and every one emphasized the importance of wearing a suit to interviews. I went on three interviews. Botched the first one, got offers from the next two, accepted the third one. I've been here ever since (closing in on eight years).

    Mind you, I'm not a fan of the suit-and-tie, although I don't mind wearing one now and then; sometimes it feels good to dress up. But the dress code here is business casual (slacks, button-down or golf shirt, no tennis shoes) Monday through Thursday and casual (bluejeans, tennis shoes) on Friday. There's never been an explanation for why what's acceptable on Friday can't be on the other days as well, but we don't kick about it; there are more important things in life.

    Nevertheless, I've interviewed quite a few people during my time here, and I've only seen one man who came in without a suit and tie. Interestingly, he got hired. :)

    I personally do not care whether they wear a suit and tie to the interview, but it's a standard that has been set by someone (headhunters, maybe?) and which is apparently still in effect.

  • TheDev (unregistered) in reply to sf
    sf:
    Code Dependent:
    MTS:
    Dude, nobody wears suits to interviews anymore. I haven't worn a suit to an interview since 1990.
    That might be true in Outer Podunk. Not so in the big city.
    Which city would that be? I work in the Silicon Valley/San Francisco Bay area and haven't worn a suite to interviews since around '90 either.
    You just read it wrong, we're talking about suits not suites.

    As an aside, how on earth did you wear a suite to interviews? I know programmers have a reputation for being portly but that's ridiculous.

  • Bob (unregistered) in reply to sf
    sf:
    Which city would that be? I work in the Silicon Valley/San Francisco Bay area and haven't worn a _suite_ to interviews since around '90 either.

    I haven't worn a suite ever in my life. I may have worn a suit though.

  • (cs) in reply to Aumatar
    Aumatar:
    Franz Kafka:
    Code Dependent:
    MTS:
    Dude, nobody wears suits to interviews anymore. I haven't worn a suit to an interview since 1990.
    That might be true in Outer Podunk. Not so in the big city.

    So come to the small city - Seattle doesn't do dress codes unless you work sales.

    Its an east coast thing. West coast doesn't do suits.

    In Buffalo, NY, you wear a suit to an interview. That's not the east coast. It is the east coast of Lake Erie, though. It's dumb, but I think the point is to make sure you know how to act -- a verification that you understand the most basic rules of adult etiquette.

  • Mr. (unregistered)
  • Mr. (unregistered) in reply to Bappi
    Bappi:
    So, if he has to clock out for bathroom breaks, why is he limited to 15' a day for bathroom breaks? As long as he clocks in at least 40hrs per week, what do they care how long his bathroom breaks are?

    I think the 15 minutes was included in his salary. If he needed a longer break, the company didn't want to pay

  • (cs)

    Wow.... i used to work for that company. Or at least something similar. They published posters and art prints and more often then i'd care to admit I was forced to participate in warehouse duties because my job "doesn't make money"... We also had to "let someone know" when we left for a bathroom break, which made it amusing to shout out "I'm going to take a piss" real loud in the office.

  • Sig (unregistered) in reply to wee

    You were lucky to have a sensible director. In the places I worked with, the directors were the ones setting up idiots for middle management, so the only thing left to do was to update your resume.

  • (cs) in reply to jack

    "Fulfilling orders makes us money; fixing bugs in our software doesn't."

    I hear that a lot. In the end, they would always have made more money if it weren't for the productivity losses caused by software bugs.

  • Bob (unregistered)

    This kind of reminds me of a job I once had a job in an IT Department had some similarities, but was pretty good for the most part. It was a small company, and although the owner/president's family members didn't work there, there were many people there who were related to each other. They did have a time card system, but fortunately no dress code. There were several times that we had to help with inventory, or with a move, but every time we did, the CEO and managers did their fair time doing the heavy lifting as well. My manager was pretty awesome too. Often when we would go out to lunch together, he would tell us to just stay clocked in since that was easier than doing the paper work to buy us lunch. I guess my point is, even if there are some lame policies, the people can make all the difference. Also, I was one of those fresh out of school guys, and was very happy to have that job. I still miss it sometimes when I get tired of the pressure at the big software company.

    Captcha:populus (Firefox's spell check says it's misspelled)

  • Mr. Happy (unregistered) in reply to SomeCoder
    SomeCoder:
    He'd be going from a big software company to a more progressive publishing company with a software department;

    This is where the WTF begins. I'm sure some of you have had better experiences with it, but for me, when the company specializes in one thing and has a software development department because times have forced them to have one, it's no fun. The developers get treated like a necessary evil rather than something that keeps the business afloat and you can imagine how fun working in that environment is.

    I've done the same thing as Todd and moved from a company that specialized in IT (anonymous coder drone) to a company that was building IT capabilities to complement its existing services. I get to build software from the ground up and have people refer to me as a "God" when I do something that (to me) is pretty pedestrian. I love it. Unlike Todd, however, no suits, no "punching in/out", can come and go as I please, and work from home if I feel like it. As long as I get stuff done when I say it'll be done nobody really cares how I do it.

  • Rich (unregistered) in reply to B-Rad
    B-Rad:
    You have obviously never worked as a Government contractor at a military facility.
    Hm. You too sir, you too.
  • Lyle (unregistered) in reply to DangerMouse9

    That's why Lyle never has to clock out!

  • artokosan (unregistered) in reply to some dumb engineer

    I had a boss who wouldn't allow us to have individual email addresses. Everything had to be received at the company email account, which got more pr0n email than I ever saw in my life. Nothing entertained me more than looking for an email from a client on the creaky old email PC, trying to ignore the ads for penis enlargement. The best part about that PC was every password was written on a post-it note and stuck to the monitor. This was right by the front door, where people would randomly wander in.

    It was a family business, too. Quite a circus. It was truly the worst job I ever had. I lasted 18 months (late '90's, crappy job market, beginning career). When I gave my two weeks notice, i was told i didn't have to honor it. I stuck it out just to make the boss uncomfortable.

  • Dan (unregistered)

    I'm surprised he didn't "punch out" his boss.

  • (cs) in reply to B-Rad
    B-Rad:
    You have obviously never worked as a Government contractor at a military facility.
    I love this kind of comment. I'm still waiting for an opportune moment to slip in "You have obviously never worked as a pole-polisher in a Salt Lake City strip club." It doesn't even have to be all that opportune. Oh, what the heck.

    You have obviously never worked as a pole-polisher in a Salt Lake City strip club.

    Go on, admit it. I'm right, aren't I?

    Anyway, all that moaning about wooden cubes just goes to show how pampered the modern American programmer is. Why, in one of my recent jobs I had to work in a Rubik's cube. And that was before they came back into fashion again.

  • jason (unregistered) in reply to some dumb engineer
    Places like this do exist. I worked at one. MountainTop Technologies in Johnstown, Pa. As God as my witness the following things did occur:

    Places like this are exactly why I moved away from PA (Altoona area) to NC (RTP).

    I have had jobs where these things (except home made wooden cubes and suits and ties) have occurred, but never all in one place. This guy hit the WTF Job Jackpot.

  • (cs) in reply to cparker
    cparker:
    MrEricSir:
    I think I speak for all of us here when I say that a dress code at a programming job is a showstopper.

    Suits and ties are for bankers and lawyers only.

    What if you're a programmer at a bank?

    To top it off, the "cubicles" have thin windows for walls, and they're about four feet tall.

    If a coworker:

    *has any sort of a conversation, even at a whisper *picks his nose *chews with his mouth open *silently yells at his monitor until he gets red in the face

    you're going to know about it.

    For the love of $deity, ask to take a tour before accepting the job. If you can't (high security, no guests/visitors allowed), and you find yourself in a similar environment, start looking elsewhere immediately, unless you want to get to know your coworkers on an uncomfortable level.

    Yes. I used to work at a bank. It was hell. Shoulder height cube walls, boss constantly looking over your shoulder, almost all web sites blocked (no idea why they blocked gmail, but not Fark or WTF). My first warning sign was that during the post-interview lunch, the HR person said, "and we get to wear jeans on Friday!" and all the other candidates were just as excited.

    I never should have taken the job, but felt more desperate than I reasonably should have been. Got out of there as soon as I found a better one, and haven't looked back.

  • Manic Mailman (unregistered)
    Fulfilling orders makes us money; fixing bugs in our software doesn't.
    Step 1: sack entire software development staff Step 2: Profit!!!

    Hot damn! I've just save a couple steps in the path to big time corporate success.

  • Jeff Rife (unregistered) in reply to ahgano
    ahgano:
    NEVER work for a "family" business, unless you're a BLOOD reletive of the "family", everyone else falls under the heading of "identured servant".
    Generally, this is good advice, but I spent 11 years at a "family" business where I had no relationship with the owner/family other than being an employee.

    My salary had tripled from start to finish (started as programmer, ended as a network architect with the last big project a rollout of Active Directory across many sites around the world). The last two managers I had weren't making as much as I was, so I certainly can't complain.

  • (cs) in reply to Mr.
    Mr.:
    Bappi:
    So, if he has to clock out for bathroom breaks, why is he limited to 15' a day for bathroom breaks? As long as he clocks in at least 40hrs per week, what do they care how long his bathroom breaks are?

    I think the 15 minutes was included in his salary. If he needed a longer break, the company didn't want to pay

    Look, this company is obviously taking the piss. All you're doing when you take frequent bathroom breaks is giving it back.

    I'd say that's pretty much being a company man.

  • GrandmasterB (unregistered) in reply to jason
    jason:
    Places like this do exist. I worked at one. MountainTop Technologies in Johnstown, Pa. As God as my witness the following things did occur:

    Places like this are exactly why I moved away from PA (Altoona area) to NC (RTP).

    You should have moved 30 minutes north of Altoona... and you'd have been in a very high tech area thats about as relaxed as it gets, culturally.

  • GrandmasterB (unregistered) in reply to ahgano
    ahgano:
    First Red Flag: Boss' son on payroll Second Red Flag: Boss' wife on the payroll

    NEVER work for a "family" business, unless you're a BLOOD reletive of the "family", everyone else falls under the heading of "identured servant".

    No comment - I just thought this advice needed to be presented again because its so true.

  • Mot (unregistered) in reply to der Kugelmeister
    ...if you quit and give 2 weeks notice your employer is required to pay you for those 2 weeks

    Okay, I'd like to give my sixteen-year notice, please.

    (I've heard of this working up to 90 days, actually, in industries with high competition for ideas.)

  • ChiefCrazyTalk (unregistered) in reply to MrEricSir
    MrEricSir:
    I think I speak for all of us here when I say that a dress code at a programming job is a showstopper.

    Suits and ties are for bankers and lawyers only.

    As a programmer who at one time had to wear a suit and tie, I find that assumption rather absurd. Sure, I'd rather go casual but I wouldnt turn down a good job with a good salary just because I needed to wear a tie. I know a lot of folks who do on principal, and frankly they are missing out.

  • Nudist in the Office (unregistered) in reply to J_Random_Hacker
    J_Random_Hacker:
    Because clothes are REALLY IMPORTANT!

    That's why I go to work naked ;)

    (though it's cold in the server room).

  • (cs)

    IANAL, but based on what I've heard from labor lawyers, I'd think this company, if it was in the US, was in violation of labor laws. If they're going to dock people for not working 40 hours a week, they have to pay overtime when employees work over 40 hours in a week.

    That said, I wouldn't have worked for them in the first place. And not because of the dress code, either - but then I look damn good in a suit. (Look pretty good out of it, too.)

    Nor do I see what's so bad about a wooden cubicle. I work in a wooden cubicle. Of course, mine's two floors and about 2000 square feet, and I call it "my house", but it's conceptually similar.

  • (cs) in reply to GrandmasterB
    GrandmasterB:
    ahgano:
    First Red Flag: Boss' son on payroll Second Red Flag: Boss' wife on the payroll

    NEVER work for a "family" business, unless you're a BLOOD reletive of the "family", everyone else falls under the heading of "identured servant".

    No comment - I just thought this advice needed to be presented again because its so true.

    I have some further advice: 1.) Never work for family 2.) Never hire your friends

    The potential for the ruining of a good relationship is just too great.

  • (cs) in reply to ChiefCrazyTalk
    ChiefCrazyTalk:
    WhiskeyJack:
    Even after I'd given my formal notice, I found that my boss had scheduled me in for the following week. The nice guy that I am, I came in and worked it anyway.
    And that, ladies and gentlement, is the REAL WTF.

    In south africa, employment contracts normally require you to give a month's notice. Some companies might waive it if you resign, but that is the standard.

    However, I take issue with your saying that the giving of notice and serving out a notice period is a WTF. Surely it is just common courtesy, and a way to preserve a relationship going forward. Down here IT is a small world, and the arsehole that drops everyone right at crunch time would probably suffer to get a nice job again, never mind a decent reference.

  • (cs) in reply to ChiefCrazyTalk
    ChiefCrazyTalk:
    I call fake. I would have quit that job the first 5 minutes - after checking first to see if I was on Candid Camera or Punk'd
    Ever worked at a Call Center?

    Sounds much like their kind of policies. A friend works at one, and those 14 "free time" minutes are known as the AUX 1 time.

    And yes, it includes going to the bathroom.

  • (cs) in reply to MichaelWojcik
    MichaelWojcik:
    ...but then I look damn good in a suit. (Look pretty good out of it, too.)
    Let another praise you, and not your own mouth; a stranger, and not your own lips. Proverbs 27:2
  • (cs) in reply to Marshall
    Marshall:
    There are good and bad offices... but if you have to punch out to use the washroom, hand in your resignation on the spot.

    I would not have lasted any farther than this on the orientation day... and I would have made it VERY clear to all within hearing range that this was absolutely ridiculous and the exact straw that caused the relationship failure.

    i believe it's actually a violation of federal law in the united states to make them clock out for bathroom breaks

  • Franz Kafka (unregistered) in reply to ChiefCrazyTalk
    ChiefCrazyTalk:
    MrEricSir:
    I think I speak for all of us here when I say that a dress code at a programming job is a showstopper.

    Suits and ties are for bankers and lawyers only.

    As a programmer who at one time had to wear a suit and tie, I find that assumption rather absurd. Sure, I'd rather go casual but I wouldnt turn down a good job with a good salary just because I needed to wear a tie. I know a lot of folks who do on principal, and frankly they are missing out.

    Given my taste in suits, I'd just factor it into the salary - $500 suit x5 (not sure, never had to wear one for work) + dry cleaning every week. Get a service that will bill by the week so I can deal with the paperwork for taxes. Subtract $1250 (suits are replaced after 2 years) + drycleaning costs from offer.

    Of course, my laundry costs go down, but casual clothes are cheap to clean.

  • minty (unregistered) in reply to bob
    bob:
    snoofle:
    ChiefCrazyTalk:
    WhiskeyJack:
    Even after I'd given my formal notice, I found that my boss had scheduled me in for the following week. The nice guy that I am, I came in and worked it anyway.
    And that, ladies and gentlement, is the REAL WTF.
    Unless, of course, he needed the money, didn't yet have another job, and/or his start date was a ways off, in which case his boss inadvertently did him a favor.
    In Canada you have to give two weeks notice and are required to work those two weeks. Also the company is required to pay for two weeks if they fire you. That's why he was scheduled for the next week after quitting.
    ... But only if you're out of the probation period (usually 3 months), before which neither party is required to give any notice period (see below .. employers still need justification).

    .. And .. your notice period may be extended depending on your length of tenure. Long-time senior roles get/require more notice (or payment in lieu)

    An employer, during a probationary period, has the implied contractual right to dismiss a probationary employee without notice and without giving reasons, based upon certain provisos which include that: a. The onus rests upon an employer to justify the dismissal; b. In order to justify the dismissal, the Employer must evidence that it assessed the employee’s suitability; c. In evidencing that it undertook an assessment of suitability, the Employer must prove that it acted fairly and with reasonable diligence in assessing whether or not the proposed employee was suitable in the job for which s/he was being tested; d. Suitability may be determined in the context of a probationary employee’s character and ability to work harmoniously within the team.
    I was totally blown away when working in England where some mates had stipulations in their employment contracts that dictated notice periods of 3 months! I don't think it's employment legislation, but it's a pretty standard timeframe that a lot of companies have for proper jobs (I'm not talking about Subway folks)

    The real WTF is a bunch of programmers is going to start yet another thread on employment legislation of which they're all almost totally ignorant. :-P

  • m0ffx (unregistered) in reply to Franz Kafka
    Franz Kafka:
    Brad I:
    Sued for what? It wouldn't be disclosing trade secrets or anything. Did someone sign a contract that said they'd never disclose the company's abusive employee policies?

    Seems to me they'd want to keep that type of information out of the courts and public record.

    The only reason for someone to get sued is if the story isn't true.

    No, lots of people will sue or threaten a lawsuit if you say bad things about them. Even if you're right, it costs money to hire lawyers, and you could lose anyway.

    Exactly. Plus I think it would often be possible for the plaintiff to choose the jurisdiction to sue in. So they could sue Alex for libel in England, where the libel laws are notoriously harsh - unusually, the burden of proof is on the DEFENDANT, to show the claims were true.

  • Chris (unregistered) in reply to ChiefCrazyTalk
    ChiefCrazyTalk:
    MrEricSir:
    I think I speak for all of us here when I say that a dress code at a programming job is a showstopper.

    Suits and ties are for bankers and lawyers only.

    As a programmer who at one time had to wear a suit and tie, I find that assumption rather absurd. Sure, I'd rather go casual but I wouldnt turn down a good job with a good salary just because I needed to wear a tie. I know a lot of folks who do on principal, and frankly they are missing out.

    I've always seen dress code as a way to control employees. We had a dress code at my current job, which I gradually stopped adhering to because I thought it was ridiculous. Of course, my boss didn't really care what I wore to work, but the higher-ups did because they wanted to have their thumbs on us. Was I ever fired for not adhering to the dress code? No. In fact, I got over a 50% increase in pay in the first year I worked there because I got_things_done. If you are productive, who gives a shit what you are wearing (assuming it's clean and decent).

    Your professionalism is not derived from your attire.

    I realize that some people don't view it this way, but then some people don't understand how much of our society is really geared toward getting people to conform so that they can be controlled.

    Dress code? No thanks.

    Suit and tie? Hell no.

    Am I missing out? I think not.

  • MichaelS (unregistered) in reply to ObiWayneKenobi
    ObiWayneKenobi:
    Let's see. He should have:

    A) Reported them to the department of labor. If someone is on salary and you make them clock in/out like an hourly employee, they can be forced to reclassify you as hourly since you're being treated hourly.

    Absolutely - and at least in most states, they have to give you two 15 minute breaks on the clock (assuming an eight hour day).

  • panzi (unregistered) in reply to DangerMouse9

    Reminds me of this: http://www.wetherobots.com/2008/07/07/typing/ g

  • (cs)

    Maybe it's just me, but when I encounter something like that I get an incredible urge to do some "agressive obedience".

    I'd be punching in and out dozens and dozens of times per day, 1 second out each time. "Got up to go to the toilet, punched out, then changed my mind". "Got up to get a drink, punched out, then realised I had a drink in my briefcase". You get the idea - try and break the system from within.

    I'd also be taking notes and reporting them to relevant authorities for violations of labour laws and OHS and whatnot.

    Oh, and I'd be looking for a new job almost immediately.

  • harborpirate (unregistered) in reply to Not A Programmer
    Not A Programmer:
    Aumatar:

    Its an east coast thing. West coast doesn't do suits.

    In Buffalo, NY, you wear a suit to an interview. That's not the east coast. It is the east coast of Lake Erie, though. It's dumb, but I think the point is to make sure you know how to act -- a verification that you understand the most basic rules of adult etiquette.

    Its not strictly about being on the actual coast. Its about the region. Phoenix may not be on the west coast, far from it in fact, but the culture is similar to what you'd find in cities that are. I've never worn a suit to an interview (late 90s onward), and dress codes are usually casual or sometimes business casual.

    The east coast region would definitely include Buffalo and generally stretches quite a distance inland in my experience. Most of our developers in that region have been happy to be relieved of the requirement that they wear a suit and tie as the company culture has been WestCoastized. The west coast culture also seems much more accepting of flexible work schedules and working remotely. I'm sure attitudes vary considerably by industry and by company.

    Someone mentioned Dallas before. Not sure what region they're in, it might be that the city is its own micro-region or that much of Texas is different than the rest of the west. I knew someone that escaped Plano/Dallas based EDS. They had horror stories about the old days of being on contracts sweating miserably in a suit and tie while all the non-contractors around them wore polos.

  • Jean Naimard (unregistered) in reply to snoofle
    snoofle:
    Oh, and can we please get a description of Todd's anatomically impossible suggestion?
    A picture is worth a thousand words:

    (Oh, btw, NSFW http://rab.zapto.org/GoFuckYourself.jpeg)

  • Jean Naimard (unregistered) in reply to kswanton
    kswanton:
    bob:
    In Canada you have to give two weeks notice and are required to work those two weeks. Also the company is required to pay for two weeks if they fire you. That's why he was scheduled for the next week after quitting.
    And when you don't show up? Not sure how this law would be enforced...
    By having the employer give you a bad rap on your unemployment form, effectively preventing you from collecting unemployment insurance.
  • Rob (unregistered) in reply to sewiv

    "When I was a sysadmin at a small-ish ISP (20 employees), the boss decided that it was too much money to have movers move the office about a mile and a half. He just casually announced (on Monday) that everyone would be required to help move the office furniture (cubes and everything) to the new location all weekend long. All of us were salaried workers. "

    That is completely the opposite of something I experienced a few years back. I had been in the job 3 days, and I was moving desks (to about 20m away). A crate was allocated to me, in which I put a few pens and some papers. I think the moving company charged £500 per desk. My PC etc. were handled by an entirely seperate team.

  • T604 (unregistered) in reply to ahgano

    "Also, if you're salaried, and they start telling you to "punch out" to go to the bathroom, head for the door and don't look back."

    I thought this was illegal. I'm pretty sure for every 4 hours you work in the US they are required to give you a 15 minute break on the clock.

  • clean (unregistered) in reply to Jean Naimard
    Jean Naimard:
    snoofle:
    Oh, and can we please get a description of Todd's anatomically impossible suggestion?
    A picture is worth a thousand words:

    (Oh, btw, NSFW ,,,,)

    OMFG No kidding. Porn alert.

    Not Safe For Sanity either. I'll never feel clean again.

Leave a comment on “Doing the Heavy Lifting”

Log In or post as a guest

Replying to comment #:

Log Out

« Return to Article