• Francisco (unregistered) in reply to minty
    minty:
    [...] I was totally blown away when working in England where some mates had stipulations in their employment contracts that dictated notice periods of 3 months! I don't think it's employment legislation, but it's a pretty standard timeframe that a lot of companies have for proper jobs (I'm not talking about Subway folks)

    The real WTF is a bunch of programmers is going to start yet another thread on employment legislation of which they're all almost totally ignorant. :-P

    Under UK law the legal minimum (unless you're being fired for gross misconduct, got dismissed after disciplinary process, etc) is the period you get paid so, if you're paid monthly then you have to work a month's notice, if you get paid weekly, etc.

  • The Wanderer (unregistered) in reply to Casey
    Casey:
    sloppy dresser = sloppy coder

    If you don't care how you look, why would you care how your code looks?

    Umm... because how my code looks has bearing on how well I do my job (presuming that that includes "writing correct and maintainable code"), but how I look doesn't?

    As it happens, I don't dress sloppily, unless a few wrinkles in a button-up shirt count. I do, however, value getting the job done over looking good while doing it (most of the time, anyway).

  • (cs)

    Dude... that would require a LOT of sitting, staring at your screen, moving your mouse until it's time to go. I mean, I don't mind going to work, it's just the 8 hours of waiting to go home that's a bitch.

  • spelling nazi (unregistered) in reply to Asiago Chow
    Asiago Chow:
    An employer of mine did the same thing. Boss told all the employees (programmers, et cetera) they had to come in over a weekend and move the office.

    I have no idea how it worked out. I didn't go along with them. There were "words said" about that but what were they going to do?

    Nothing, obviously. That's the thing about helping people out...you're not doing it at the barrel of a gun, you're doing it because you have a decent relationship with them and you're a nice person.

  • Doesn't matter (unregistered) in reply to spelling nazi
    spelling nazi:
    Asiago Chow:
    An employer of mine did the same thing. Boss told all the employees (programmers, et cetera) they had to come in over a weekend and move the office.

    I have no idea how it worked out. I didn't go along with them. There were "words said" about that but what were they going to do?

    Nothing, obviously. That's the thing about helping people out...you're not doing it at the barrel of a gun, you're doing it because you have a decent relationship with them and you're a nice person.

    "Decent relationship" being the operative words there. If my boss/company is relaxed and helpful with me, I'm relaxed and helpful with them. If however, I'm berated for being 30 mins late one morning when I regularly stay 1 - 2 hours late every night, and then they expect me to spend my weekend helping with the office move with nothing in the way of compensation - that's not being nice, that's being taken advantage of.

    CAPTCHA: What? It's not even English now and people are STILL posting them in their message body? Why, for the love of Jebus, why?

  • lokey (unregistered) in reply to KenW
    KenW:
    SomeCoder:
    That hasn't been my experience. Almost all programmers I know work for companies that are software companies.

    You don't have much experience, then. <g>

    Common sense should tell you that, since there are a whole lot more programmers than there are positions at software companies, the majority of programmers must work at non-software companies. You know, like in banking, trading, medical, insurance, energy, and all those other companies that employ more programmers? Or governmental agencies? Or the military? Or publishing and graphics?

    Programming jobs in software companies are a lot fewer than you seem to think. Even in heavily focused software companies, the support staff usually outnumber the developers; MS, for example, has a lot more sales and support staff, design people, marketing, etc. than they have actual code writers.

    They have code writers? What For? BG just "aquired" (legally or NOT) whatever he thought he needed...

  • lokey (unregistered) in reply to KenW
    KenW:
    MTS:
    Dude, nobody wears suits to interviews anymore. I haven't worn a suit to an interview since 1990.

    Suits aren't usually required when you're interviewing for janitor.

    Those of us applying for professional jobs, though, still wear suits to interviews.

    Egotistical asshats like you make me sick - let's see you get through your day without using something that a blue-collar professional had a hand in - no electricity, a professional linesman worked on the power grid, and a professional electrician wired the building - no water or toilets, a professional plumber did that work - no food, a professional farmer raised it, and a professional packer prepared it for shipment, and a professional truck driver delivered it to the store - no car, a professional mechanic worked on it - no public transportation, for the same reasons - and sleep outside, a professional carpenter framed your house, - in short, there are more professionals who DON'T wear suits than there are who do... By the way, KenW, why don't you give us your full name and location, so that the ones who you don't think are professionals (non-suit-wearers) can tell you to fuck off the next time you need them.

  • (cs)

    I'd wear a suit to an interview for any job where I'd be working behind a desk most of the day, but that's just me. I wouldn't fault anyone who didn't wear one to any interview. I can't imagine it would make that much of a difference at most places (unless, possibly, it was sales or something).

  • (cs) in reply to Francisco
    Francisco:
    Brad I:
    The only reason for someone to get sued is if the story isn't true.

    Or if they can't PROVE it's true.

    You misunderstand burden of proof. In the US, in libel cases, it's on the plaintiff to prove that the allegations are FALSE. (It's more than this even; I think you have to show unreasonableness on behalf of the defendant, though I'm not sure, and in the case of a public figure like a politician, you have to show malace.)

    Of course, this doesn't stop people from suing when they don't have a case, which is still costly, but at least most of the time they won't win.

  • Derek (unregistered) in reply to EvanED
    EvanED:
    Francisco:
    Brad I:
    The only reason for someone to get sued is if the story isn't true.

    Or if they can't PROVE it's true.

    You misunderstand burden of proof. In the US, in libel cases, it's on the plaintiff to prove that the allegations are FALSE. (It's more than this even; I think you have to show unreasonableness on behalf of the defendant, though I'm not sure, and in the case of a public figure like a politician, you have to show malace.)

    Of course, this doesn't stop people from suing when they don't have a case, which is still costly, but at least most of the time they won't win.

    Well, that's completely wacko - you can't prove a negative. If the burden of proof is on the defendant to show that the allegations are false, well, that can easily be made impossible. If I say you were buggered by aliens as a child, how on earth can you prove my allegation to be false?

  • Derek (unregistered) in reply to Derek
    Derek:
    EvanED:
    Francisco:
    Brad I:
    The only reason for someone to get sued is if the story isn't true.

    Or if they can't PROVE it's true.

    You misunderstand burden of proof. In the US, in libel cases, it's on the plaintiff to prove that the allegations are FALSE. (It's more than this even; I think you have to show unreasonableness on behalf of the defendant, though I'm not sure, and in the case of a public figure like a politician, you have to show malace.)

    Of course, this doesn't stop people from suing when they don't have a case, which is still costly, but at least most of the time they won't win.

    Well, that's completely wacko - you can't prove a negative. If the burden of proof is on the defendant to show that the allegations are false, well, that can easily be made impossible. If I say you were buggered by aliens as a child, how on earth can you prove my allegation to be false?

    Sorry, I meant plaintiff, not defendant

  • Jobsworth (unregistered) in reply to Mot
    Mot:
    ...if you quit and give 2 weeks notice your employer is required to pay you for those 2 weeks

    Okay, I'd like to give my sixteen-year notice, please.

    (I've heard of this working up to 90 days, actually, in industries with high competition for ideas.)

    In Belgium, it's 3 months per 5 years of employment if they let you go, and half of that if you quit. For example, my dad who has worked more than 30 years for the same company, would be paid 1,5 years. On top of that he has union protection, another 6 months. And no he isn't a typical union slacker.

  • (cs)

    I worked at a company once that required you to pay for coffee. If you wanted to drink coffee you had to pay $1.50 a day and that would get you 3 dixie cups of the nastiest sludge you ever tasted. We could go and buy a soda down the hall from the machine but there was a rule against brining in coffee from outside. I'm guessing the managers were using this as a side business to supplement their income. I didn't stick around long enough to find out.

  • Just some guy, ya know? (unregistered)

    If he didn't call OSHA to report the safety violations then he is a bad person. Seriously. People can be severely injured or even killed when people like that are allowed to run a warehouse. He didn't even like the people but ~still~ refused to lift a finger about their legion of violations? (Not to mention that he probably could have gotten some whistleblower compensation, especially if during his castigation he calmly pulled out his cell phone and called in a report to OSHA then and there, which inevitably would have led to his firing.)

  • Mr. Bean (unregistered) in reply to Marshall

    The company I'm at now came dangerously close to implementing rigid time-at-desk rules quite similar to those described.

    One of the managers even came up with the bright idea of finding a "chess clock" program that everyone could install on their desktops so we could monitor the time we spent at our desks.

    The enforced splitting up of break time into small chunks, pretty much as described in the story, was actually implemented, much to everyone's horror.

    Fortunately, pretty much everyone in the company rebelled against it and it didn't last more than a few months. But those few months were among the most depressing I've ever experienced in a work environment.

    I came very close to quitting over it. The one single thing that stopped me was that I was in the middle of planning my wedding at the time, and I really didn't need the extra stress of job hunting at that time.

    The good news is that working conditions have since improved markedly, and after re-considering things later on, I decided to stick it out. But it was touch and go for a while.

  • Just some guy, ya know? (unregistered)

    Several years ago I was applying for a job at a security company. I wore a suit. Out of the 30-40 applicants in the office I was the only one. I was literally offered a job within 30 seconds of walking through the door - the hiring manager saw me and her first words were an invocation to deity and "we have a position for you". From the reaction of the hiring manager you'd think they hadn't seen a single person wear a suit to the interview in years.

  • CP HR (unregistered)

    I agree with the employer in this article.

    Get to work, slackers!!

  • (cs) in reply to Bappi
    Bappi:
    So, if he has to clock out for bathroom breaks, why is he limited to 15' a day for bathroom breaks? As long as he clocks in at least 40hrs per week, what do they care how long his bathroom breaks are?
    You have a lot to learn about micromanaging the peons beneath you.
  • Phil (unregistered) in reply to GrandmasterB
    GrandmasterB:
    jason:
    Places like this do exist. I worked at one. MountainTop Technologies in Johnstown, Pa. As God as my witness the following things did occur:

    Places like this are exactly why I moved away from PA (Altoona area) to NC (RTP).

    You should have moved 30 minutes north of Altoona... and you'd have been in a very high tech area thats about as relaxed as it gets, culturally.

    Punxsutawney?

  • Francisco (unregistered) in reply to EvanED
    EvanED:
    Francisco:
    Brad I:
    The only reason for someone to get sued is if the story isn't true.

    Or if they can't PROVE it's true.

    You misunderstand burden of proof. In the US, in libel cases, it's on the plaintiff to prove that the allegations are FALSE. (It's more than this even; I think you have to show unreasonableness on behalf of the defendant, though I'm not sure, and in the case of a public figure like a politician, you have to show malace.)

    Of course, this doesn't stop people from suing when they don't have a case, which is still costly, but at least most of the time they won't win.

    Of course we are talking about different legal systems. I'll refer you to some that discuss the law in the UK (it may apply for all we know):

    http://www.website-law.co.uk/resources/website-libel.html (especially point 5)

    http://www.law.ed.ac.uk/it&law/c10_main.htm

  • (cs) in reply to interficio

    If you take a nap at your desk technically you shouldn't have to punch out right?

  • Mr. (unregistered)

    In Norway we usually have to work for 1-3 months after giving our notice (specified in the contract). This works both ways, so the employer also have to give you the same period of notice.

    But the employer can of course shorten the period if he likes you :-) But in practice you don't work for 3 months, since you have a lot of vacation time saved up.

  • pip (unregistered)

    i clocked out to read this article

  • (cs) in reply to Francisco
    Francisco:
    Of course we are talking about different legal systems. I'll refer you to some that discuss the law in the UK (it may apply for all we know):

    http://www.website-law.co.uk/resources/website-libel.html (especially point 5)

    http://www.law.ed.ac.uk/it&law/c10_main.htm

    I realize this (and think it's a big mistake of UK law). However, Alex is in the US, which means that any suit brought against TheDailyWTF wouldn't follow UK libel laws.
  • Curious George (unregistered)

    I've only been out of school a bit over a year, so I've got a question for your experienced guys who have been in situations like this. As many others have said, I would flip out if I worked in the same working condtions as described in the story, so I would immediately start looking elsewhere. Now, on to the questions:

    1. Would you just walk out from the job, or wait until finding a new job elsewhere first?
    2. I find it hard to believe that a company with barbaric rules like this would just let you have a few hours, or a day, off so soon after starting. So, when do you find time to interview at new companies if you stick with the job until finding a new one?
    3. When interviewing at new companies, do you mention that you're currently working at a place that you plan on leaving after such a short period of time? (I'm assuming you don't mention the craptastic company)
    4. If you don't mention that you're leaving the awful company, what's a good reason for leaving the last good job you had without having a job lined up? You could be "out of work" for the past couple of months for all this new company knows.
  • Owen (unregistered) in reply to DazP
    DazP:
    At least he didn't "Punch Out".

    That's a good one! "Well OK Quincy, do you want me to "Punch out" before I go home?"

    Quincy: "Of course, you always punch out."

    Todd: KA-POW!

  • Simon (unregistered)

    omg this story brought back memories I thought were blocked forever.

    A previous place I worked in I had to write an application on the Mac that was previously on the PC (as they didn't like PCs).

    So I with almost zero mac experience I got all the books and started learning. Anyone who worked on Mac will tell you the manuals are daunting. Easy to use, take a while to program on.

    About 4 days in people start to notice that all I am doing is reading and playing with small apps on the Mac. Eventually someone complains and despite pointing out that I can't make the application unless I learn they dumped me onto packing boxes in the warehouse until such time I was busy again. The app never got written.

    Same place and thankfully before I joined. There was an employee and manager (both left before I joined as well). The employee was chastised by the manager for going to the toilet outside of the "allocated toilet break times". The employee mentioned they weren't in a prison and refused. At that point the manager said they would have them fired.

    Said employee went to a lawyer who pointed out it was against his human rights. The employee got an apology and quietly given a lump sum of cash as an incentive to look for another job. No idea what happened to the manager.

  • Simon (unregistered) in reply to Renan "C#" Sousa
    Renan "C#" Sousa:
    I hear that a lot. In the end, they would always have made more money if it weren't for the productivity losses caused by software bugs.

    What you lose on bugs you can make up on yearly updated support contracts.

  • pok (unregistered) in reply to cparker
    cparker:
    What if you're a programmer at a bank?

    I'm a programmer at a bank. That doesn't make me a banker. My entire wardrobe consists of t-shirts from thinkgeek and jeans.

    cparker:
    *silently yells at his monitor until he gets red in the face

    I frequently curse loudly at my monitor. Nobody cares, because we all have separate offices with closeable doors.

  • cakesy (unregistered) in reply to Curious George
    Curious George:
    1. Would you just walk out from the job, or wait until finding a new job elsewhere first?

    If the job was as bad as the one described in the article, I would leave. If you just don't like it, or don't get on with someone, try to stick it out until you get a new job.

    Curious George:
    2. I find it hard to believe that a company with barbaric rules like this would just let you have a few hours, or a day, off so soon after starting. So, when do you find time to interview at new companies if you stick with the job until finding a new one?

    Say you have to go to the dentist of the doctor. Make any excuse. Who cares if they fire you?

    Curious George:
    3. When interviewing at new companies, do you mention that you're currently working at a place that you plan on leaving after such a short period of time? (I'm assuming you don't mention the craptastic company)

    If you haven't been working there long, like a few weeks, don't bring up the job. Never bad mouth an old employer, no matter how shit they were.

    Curious George:
    4. If you don't mention that you're leaving the awful company, what's a good reason for leaving the last good job you had without having a job lined up? You could be "out of work" for the past couple of months for all this new company knows.

    Say you went traveling, or spent some time visiting your folks.

  • chenry (unregistered)

    I'd have quit on the spot after being told I need to punch out just to piss.

  • TheDev (unregistered) in reply to cakesy
    cakesy:
    Say you have to go to the dentist of the doctor.
    Why a dentist who counts a doctor among his patients? Plus what doctor are we talking about?

    Seems a little contrived, best to keep it simple.

  • Marc (unregistered)

    "a salary basis employee's base pay may not be reduced for partial day absences."

    -Fair Labor Standards Act

    http://www.flsa.com/coverage.html

    "The regulations interpreting the term salary basis say that if an otherwise exempt employee is subject to deductions from his or her pay for absences from work of less than a whole day, then the employee is not paid on a salary basis and therefore does not qualify as an exempt employee.

    If the employee is not classified as exempt, he or she must be paid overtime. This situation can result in the employer being liable for tens of thousands of dollars in overtime pay, because the statute of limitations is two years or three, if the violation is willful. "

    http://www.allbusiness.com/human-resources/benefits-time-off/490582-1.html

    Go get em tiger.

  • Tigiot (unregistered) in reply to DangerMouse9

    Lyle can clock out way better than you can.

  • TME (unregistered)

    What the hell? What kind of masochist would put up with that? The insane thing isn't that the company does that, they didn't do anything stupid, they just did what they could get away with, if none of the employees object, why should they change? The insane thing is that this guy put up with this for even that long. If I were in the situation I would have staged a protest at the warehouse and gotten all the other developers to quit as well. They the company would be really fucked for treating their workers like shit. If one guy leaves, it doesn't make much of a statement. But if an entire department leaves?

  • Kir (unregistered) in reply to cparker
    cparker:
    What if you're a programmer at a bank?

    I'm working as programmer at a bank, now and we don't have any dress codes. Everyone dress up as they like. I didn't see anyone dressed really bad, but it's quite free.

  • NotVeryImportant (unregistered)

    My boss is a micro-manager, too, but not so much about time. We are allowed a certain amount of freedom as long as the work gets done. HOWEVER, if you're not in at the appointed time and he happens to be looking for you, your next stop might be the morgue! What he really wants to know is where you are (at all times) and what you're doing (also at all times).

    A while back, he decided he wanted some kind of digital In/Out board working via the network and assigned me the task of getting something and implementing it. I'm still the lead on that software, thankfully. I just set the log to not keep more than 1 day of data. Since the client is an add-on to Outlook, I leave my PC logged in and have the scheduler start Outlook at ~about~ the time I'm supposed to be here. I've also set that for some of the others.

    Usage as an indicator of where we are has dropped to almost nil.

  • chaussures pas cher (unregistered)

    chaussures pas cherhello everyone nice to meet you welcome to visit our stations ,hi welceome to visit our stations you must go to have a look!! you must visit!!!we will welcome !!!

  • eric bloedow (unregistered) in reply to DWalker59

    reminds me of a line in one of Scott Adams's books: "dress codes are apparently intended to make employees look like an organ grinder's monkey, and Necktie=leash."

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