The Daily WTF: Curious Perversions in Information Technology

2005-09-19 Reply Admin

it's also unfortunate "Richard Nixon" continously poisons the threads with his libertarian agenda.

Maybe you should find out what a libertarian is, or explain why a nonsense attack like this is any better than what about you're complaining.

2005-09-19 Reply Admin

I am a mid-level manager who is about to screen some potential candidates. I agree with a lot of what CPound has said (although not all) and have come up with a series of questions to ask my future employees. I think this will help weed out the bad ones. Let me know what you think.

Are you a Communist? Do you support the Communist Party? You would be surprised how many bright red CCCP and "Che Lives" shirts I've seen showing through their dress shirts. I think this question would help to eliminate 50% of the baddies.
How likely are you to break down the door and spray the office with semi-automatic gunfire? If the candidate hesitates or considers the question, he will be eliminated. The proper response is an immediate "I would never do such a thing!" This will eliminate another 10%.
What sort of animal/tree would you be? If they answer a type of tree or plant they will be eliminated. If they answer some sort of animal, they will be eliminated. The correct answer is human. There are no other correct responses. This question eliminates another 10%.
Will you agree to cut your weird hairdo (aka "shag rug")? Most candidates typically wear the long hair pony-tail style. If they don't agree to cut it, they will be eliminated. This eliminates yet another 10%. (The same thing goes for body piercings...unless they're female, in which case their super sexy.)

This leaves a paltry 20% of candidates who still may or may not make the cut. But at least I've gotten rid of the basic riff-raff. Thoughts?

EnterUserNameHere · 2005-09-19 Reply Admin

I'm a partner at a small firm and we (usually) have a phone interview before bringing someone in for a face-to-face interview. We always mention to the interviewee during the phone conversation that we are a REALLY "casual dress" place. It's interesting to see what people show up wearing.

In general, I can say (based on experience) that the people that show up for the formal interview in a suit and tie are nits. Oddly, they are usually the ones that are anxious to show you examples of their source code that are so full of WTF's that you wonder what they REALLY do for a living.

We've never had anyone come in MORE casual than us (I usually wear shorts, T-shirt and flip-flops so that would be difficult) and they always at least appear to be making an effort to "dress to the occasion".

I'd also like to add a twist to the whole topic by adding that, while we ARE extremely casual in dress, we do "up" the dress code when clients are expected to be on the premises. While we never go so far as to require a suit and tie (we're in Miami, FL so few people with their wits about them wear a suit and tie here anyway), we do ask that everyone please wear shoes when the people paying the bills (or could possibly be paying the bills in the future) are coming in to visit.

So far, nobody has had a problem with this policy.

Thanks

2005-09-19 Reply Admin

So that proves it - if you don't think you're a bigot, you are!

2005-09-19 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
Manni, You can take your unlimited hour work weeks if you want. You'll end up a burnt out mess at the end of them with nothing to offer others or yourself, and a free dinner won't make up for that. And if the President of the company can't devote himself to an interview he should have delegated. Either there's not enough staff or he couldn't give a shit about his employees. Would you really want to work under either circumstance?

That's how I felt too. Also, the president pretty much didn't give a crap. He was sure that he was about to be bought out by AOL and seemed to be planning where his next vacation home might be.

[Hahah, the captcha is "doom"]

Omnifarious · 2005-09-20 Reply Admin

hank miller:
I know I'm an over sensitive christian, but I like it that way. People swear all the time, but not around me - I have made it clear that it isn't acceptable, and they have learned to respect that if they want to communicate with me. (Once you set the example people tend to follow along, so normally I don't have to say anything, just refuse to swear a few times when everyone else is, and they will get uncomfortable and stop. Subtile but it works)

I'm not a Christian, but I never swear myself. And people who do it around me end up getting nervous and stopping too, even though I generally don't care. :-) It's kind of amusing in a way. I do care if there's a lot of it and/or it's really gratuitous.

2005-09-20 Reply Admin

I think most programmers would be doing themselves a favor if they learned to dress well. I was exclusively a T-shirt and jeans guy until well into my twenties, and since my first programming job was in an academic setting, it wasn't a problem. But once I left that job (the pay was not great), I started to notice that programmers and engineers were often treated like second class citizens, even in organizations where they were among the most important employees (in terms of the bottom line).

The world is run by people who belong to a club of sorts. There is something like a gentleman's agreement between members of this club to not screw each other, at least not in certain ways. There also seems to be an agreement to treat members of the "out group" as- well, as precisely that. Clothing is a signalling device. The rules are sometimes arbitrary (do you know why the bottom button of a single breasted jacket is left undone? or why a button down shirt is more casual than a point collar?- historical accident in both cases), but, then, the particular phonemes that make up a word are the result of historical accident as well; what matters is that they are agreed upon.

I'm not saying that I approve of this- I'd much prefer a society in which social standing was determined by analytic ability ;). As a programmer, I wouldn't try to implement a comparison based sort that ran in O(n) time, just because I disapproved of O(n log n) algorithms. Hierarchy in primate groups seems to be as immutable as constraints on computation- forgetting that people are basically very smart chimps is always a mistake (my apologies to any Creationists out there), and generally a costly one.

The thing is that, as a programmer, I figure I'm a fair bit smarter than most of the members of the club (having an IQ- and yes, I know that the entire concept of IQ is controversial these days- between the 60th and 90th percentile is an aid to getting into, and advancing within, the club- higher than that is a strike against you). Even if I wasn't raised so that the rules were second nature (and trust me, I wasn't), I'm capable of figuring them out- in fact, I know them better than most people born into the club (I don't have problems modelling others' internal state, so I clearly don't have Aspergers, but I'm prone to the same kind of obsessiveness, and when I decided to learn how to dress I learned everything I could about it). Clothing is just one signalling mechanism, but it's an important part, and the first hurdle.

I'm also smart enough (and have spent enough time in NYC) to never pay retail. In fact, I try to avoid paying more than 10% of retail for most items. Decent shoes start at $300.00 US (Allen Edmonds is a good deal at around that, for the budget minded, and EGs are along the same lines- a bit nicer, but harder to get cheap- but make sure you understand the level of formality of each style before you buy; the AE Park Avenue is a good choice for professional situations), and decent suits start around $1500.00 (retail). My current wardrobe would cost about $50,000.00 at retail. I've spent less than $5000.00 on it (and another few thousand on tailoring). I would guess that my return on that investment is several thousand percent, plus some intangibles (like not being treated like a servant). I am at least sure of one thing- in any professional situation I will be better dressed than anyone else there.

To fit really well, clothing has to be custom made, but only a few tailors are capable of producing clothes that are as good as high end RTW, so unless you have really unusual dimensions you're much better off buying RTW (at a deep discount) and having it tailored, if price matters to you (big hint on the club- try to get suits that have no buttonholes on the sleeves, and come with the buttons in a bag in the breast pocket- then get functional buttonholes sewn once the sleeves have been altered- functional buttonholes mark you as a "Master of the Universe"(TM), and command instant respect from other "Masters of the Universe"(TM)- think the business card scene in "American Psycho").

If all of this seems just a little bit silly- yes, yes, it is tremendously silly. Almost every really brilliant programmer I've ever known seemed to have been dressed by their blind, mother- a few days before. Most of them lacked even the rudiments of business etiquette. None of them bothered to disguise their intelligence when dealing with people who were made uncomfortable by really smart people. None of them were paid anything near what they were worth, and, if they were in professional settings, few of them were treated with the respect that they deserved. Some of them were quite content, but some of them were bitter.

I can do most of my current job in my underwear- in fact I could do it naked, if I wanted. I'm at the second level on the org chart, and report to the owner of the company. I get to make the technical decisions, for the most part. I could burn my clothes, and it would not affect my current job. I could not have gotten this job without items on my resume that required that I play the game. I get paid a reasonable salary for an executive position with a small company, but I also know that if the job ever gets too annoying I can make more money than I make now by moving to a larger (infinitely more annoying) company that is hungry for people who are both competent, and refuse to wear a jacket without functional buttonholes...

In short, this is how the world works. Dress how you want, but don't complain about how much incompetents get paid if you match your socks to your shoes, or your shirt. Also, please understand that corporate America has a pecking order- it is appropriate for the CTO to show up last to an interview (almost required at a formal institution), and it is wholly inappropriate to call him Beavis or Butthead. The only one of these guys worth thinking about hiring for a corporate position is the "sit down" guy- he sounds like a good programmer. They should have offered him the job, if everything else looked good, but also lowered the offer by 10k or more, assuming that he was worth more than he could command.

2005-09-20 Reply Admin

I meant blind, senile mother.

2005-09-20 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
it is appropriate for the CTO to show up last to an interview (almost required at a formal institution)

Did you mean inappropriate or appropriate?

Every single interview I have been in the CTO comes in last...usually very late. I'm pretty sure it's to make the candidate squirm.

I bet they get some sort of sick enjoyment knowing the candidate is sweating bullets waiting for "the big CTO" to arrive.

2005-09-20 Reply Admin

It would be funny to prey on the interviewer's fears of the candidate going postal.

You could say something like: "Do you guys press charges? I sure hope not. How about search vehicles? I would appreciate it if you didn't look in my car's trunk. What's your take on personal firearms? Are there any firing ranges around here?"

It would be funny to see their expression. That and see how fast they would call security.

2005-09-20 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
Anonymous:
it is appropriate for the CTO to show up last to an interview (almost required at a formal institution)

Did you mean inappropriate or appropriate?

Every single interview I have been in the CTO comes in last...usually very late. I'm pretty sure it's to make the candidate squirm.

I bet they get some sort of sick enjoyment knowing the candidate is sweating bullets waiting for "the big CTO" to arrive.

I meant appropriate. That's how it works. It's rude to show up after someone higher than you on the org chart (after a certain point- this only matters for executives). That's why the CTO shows up late to every interview you go to- he has to give his subordinates a few minutes of leeway, so they show up before him even if they get hung up for a minute or two. This only applies at traditional companies- but note that they make up a good chunk of the IT market. It's not sick, unless you consider all of corporate culture sick (and if you do, well, either don't work in corporate-land, or suck it up).

Don't squirm. Don't sweat bullets. Don't get nervous and start making endless chitchat (do compliment someone's tie/cufflinks/etc [but not an item of clothing- you compliment accessories only, never items of clothing, and never ostentatious accessories, like expensive watches] in the hopes that they will go on a talking jag and let you sit there and nod- make sure that it is the senior person in the room, as only they are allowed to go on a talking jag). This isn't actually meant as a test for you, but you can still fail it. This is actually one of the best arguments for dressing well I can think of- you can just sit there and think about how much better dressed you are than the people across the table- but don't smirk.

2005-09-20 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
I am a mid-level manager who is about to screen some potential candidates. I agree with a lot of what CPound has said (although not all) and have come up with a series of questions to ask my future employees. I think this will help weed out the bad ones. Let me know what you think.

Are you a Communist? Do you support the Communist Party? You would be surprised how many bright red CCCP and "Che Lives" shirts I've seen showing through their dress shirts. I think this question would help to eliminate 50% of the baddies.
How likely are you to break down the door and spray the office with semi-automatic gunfire? If the candidate hesitates or considers the question, he will be eliminated. The proper response is an immediate "I would never do such a thing!" This will eliminate another 10%.

What sort of animal/tree would you be? If they answer a type of tree or plant they will be eliminated. If they answer some sort of animal, they will be eliminated. The correct answer is human. There are no other correct responses. This question eliminates another 10%.
Will you agree to cut your weird hairdo (aka "shag rug")? Most candidates typically wear the long hair pony-tail style. If they don't agree to cut it, they will be eliminated. This eliminates yet another 10%. (The same thing goes for body piercings...unless they're female, in which case their super sexy.)

This leaves a paltry 20% of candidates who still may or may not make the cut. But at least I've gotten rid of the basic riff-raff. Thoughts?

That's brilliant. It does sound more like an interview process for joining the Nazis though. They apparently had this thing about the pure Aryan race, where everybody looked and acted the same, had no particular political leanings, and acted like a lemming. You seem to have described your interview process as having much the same requirements. I do think you should add a point number five, just to complete a fine set of questions:

5. If ( (blondeHaired && blueEyed && tall) && (handsome || (pretty && female && hasBigTits)) ) { accept = true; }

2005-09-20 Reply Admin

EnterUserNameHere:
I'm a partner at a small firm and we (usually) have a phone interview before bringing someone in for a face-to-face interview. We always mention to the interviewee during the phone conversation that we are a REALLY "casual dress" place. It's interesting to see what people show up wearing.

In general, I can say (based on experience) that the people that show up for the formal interview in a suit and tie are nits. Oddly, they are usually the ones that are anxious to show you examples of their source code that are so full of WTF's that you wonder what they REALLY do for a living.

We've never had anyone come in MORE casual than us (I usually wear shorts, T-shirt and flip-flops so that would be difficult) and they always at least appear to be making an effort to "dress to the occasion".

I'd also like to add a twist to the whole topic by adding that, while we ARE extremely casual in dress, we do "up" the dress code when clients are expected to be on the premises. While we never go so far as to require a suit and tie (we're in Miami, FL so few people with their wits about them wear a suit and tie here anyway), we do ask that everyone please wear shoes when the people paying the bills (or could possibly be paying the bills in the future) are coming in to visit.

So far, nobody has had a problem with this policy.

Thanks

That's awesome, I love you. Please can I come and work for you?

ammoQ · 2005-09-20 Reply Admin

Anonymous:

That's brilliant.

No, that's brillant.

It does sound more like an interview process for joining the Nazis though. They apparently had this thing about the pure Aryan race, where everybody looked and acted the same, had no particular political leanings, and acted like a lemming. You seem to have described your interview process as having much the same requirements. I do think you should add a point number five, just to complete a fine set of questions:
5. If ( (blondeHaired && blueEyed && tall) && (handsome || (pretty && female && hasBigTits)) ) { accept = true; }

It's not that simple. At least for the more important positions in their political hierachy, one had to proof that all his ancestors were Aryan, too (the so-called "Ariernachweis")

2005-09-20 Reply Admin

ammoQ:
Anonymous:

That's brilliant.

No, that's brillant.

It does sound more like an interview process for joining the Nazis though. They apparently had this thing about the pure Aryan race, where everybody looked and acted the same, had no particular political leanings, and acted like a lemming. You seem to have described your interview process as having much the same requirements. I do think you should add a point number five, just to complete a fine set of questions:
5. If ( (blondeHaired && blueEyed && tall) && (handsome || (pretty && female && hasBigTits)) ) { accept = true; }

It's not that simple. At least for the more important positions in their political hierachy, one had to proof that all his ancestors were Aryan, too (the so-called "Ariernachweis")

Specifically:

"German mystics formed the Germanenorden (Order of the Teutons). The Germanenorden was a mystic society based on proof of Aryan ancestry. Founding members of the order included Theodor Fritsch, Philipp Stauff (pupil of Guido von List) and Hermann Pohl; Pohl later formed the Walvater Teutonic Order of the Holy Grail in 1915. Many members of the Germanenorden would go on to achieve high-ranking positions within the Nazi party." (source Wikipedia.org)

Generally I was just making a point that the original poster's comments whether serious or not, seemed facist or dictatorial in nature. The reference to the Nazis and the aforementioned concept of an Aryan master race (Herrenrasse), was merely to enforce the point that the poster would seem to have something against people who didn't conform to their exact ideals (no different hairstyles, no political bias other than their own, no individuality, etc). I wasn't trying to make a statement about Nazism or any other political movement. I was merely surprised that a manager would admit to requiring an automaton.

P.S. Che rocks!

Jon Limjap · 2005-09-20 Reply Admin

RFlowers:
I would like to throw my 0010 cents in on the topic of hours at work. Myself, I would not like to work 60+ hours, although I could do it every once in a while. I am a 40 hour guy, and I know this hurts my career overall. I'm willing to make the trade-off and I have made decisions fully aware of the consequences. I've told others (go-getters) this, and they think I'm a fool. But these guys don't have families, not many friends, and their apartments are basically cubicles anyway. (They don't own their own home; maybe at retirement.) I envy the money they make, but I made my decision being aware what I was missing.

That being said, there do seem to be a few that "have it all," but maybe it just seems that way.

Amen!

ammoQ · 2005-09-20 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
Specifically:

"German mystics formed the Germanenorden (Order of the Teutons). The Germanenorden was a mystic society based on proof of Aryan ancestry. Founding members of the order included Theodor Fritsch, Philipp Stauff (pupil of Guido von List) and Hermann Pohl; Pohl later formed the Walvater Teutonic Order of the Holy Grail in 1915. Many members of the Germanenorden would go on to achieve high-ranking positions within the Nazi party." (source Wikipedia.org)

True, but it misses one fact: the "Ariernachweis" was not something required only by members of the "Germanenorden". It was part of the Nazi's "ethic cleansing" (to use a modern euphemizing word), affected the whole population and prepared for the holocaust. IIRC, the higher the political position, the more generations of his ancestors one had to proof to be Aryan. But even for normal people some level of proof (IIRC 3 generations) was required.

Generally I was just making a point that the original poster's comments whether serious or not, seemed facist or dictatorial in nature. The reference to the Nazis and the aforementioned concept of an Aryan master race (Herrenrasse), was merely to enforce the point that the poster would seem to have something against people who didn't conform to their exact ideals (no different hairstyles, no political bias other than their own, no individuality, etc). I wasn't trying to make a statement about Nazism or any other political movement. I was merely surprised that a manager would admit to requiring an automaton.

It's always dangerous to compare someone or something with the Nazis and the inconceivable cruelity of their system. Anyway, I'm sure the poster of those rules was joking.

Kefer · 2005-09-20 Reply Admin

Guess you mean 'ethnic cleansing'...

ammoQ · 2005-09-20 Reply Admin

Kefer:
Guess you mean 'ethnic cleansing'...

yes, of course

2005-09-20 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
P.S. Che rocks!

So is it the fact that he was responsible for executing dissidents that first attracted you to him, or that he spearheaded the placement of homosexuals into concentration camps?

2005-09-20 Reply Admin

JimNtexas:
But I'm sorry, I can't work in a 20 person bullpen. And I don't need the guy with the private office to tell me how wonderful it is to work with 19 other people all crammed into what was really a wide hallway.

I've never worked in environments where I couldn't see or hear other people thank god. I'd go barking mad locked in a cubicle for the rest of my life. Social interaction is an important part of your (working) life you know :)

Not that I've ever understood the whole cubicle farm fascination in the US anyway.... never seen it in Europe, and I know it to be a very rare concept here thankfully.

Jon Limjap · 2005-09-20 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
JimNtexas:
But I'm sorry, I can't work in a 20 person bullpen. And I don't need the guy with the private office to tell me how wonderful it is to work with 19 other people all crammed into what was really a wide hallway.

I've never worked in environments where I couldn't see or hear other people thank god. I'd go barking mad locked in a cubicle for the rest of my life. Social interaction is an important part of your (working) life you know :)

Not that I've ever understood the whole cubicle farm fascination in the US anyway.... never seen it in Europe, and I know it to be a very rare concept here thankfully.

I don't work in a cubicle, but neither will I work in a hallway of flat tables with people passing through all the time.

Richard Nixon · 2005-09-20 Reply Admin

emptyset:
Richard Nixon:

Yes, it's unfortunate that "emptyset" replied to someone who was discussing attire for an interview with a comment about attire for day-to-day work, as if that was refuting the statement.

it's also unfortunate "Richard Nixon" continously poisons the threads with his libertarian agenda.

Try to stay on topic.

2005-09-20 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
Anonymous:
P.S. Che rocks!

So is it the fact that he was responsible for executing dissidents that first attracted you to him, or that he spearheaded the placement of homosexuals into concentration camps?

Seriously, are you American or just don't understand satire? I refer you to the second to last sentence of my last but one paragraph. It went something along the lines of "I'm not trying to male a political statement", just incase you can't find it.

emptyset · 2005-09-20 Reply Admin

dubwai:
Dude, you need to lay off the bong. Seriously, this doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Why would the Illuminati want a bunch of people wasting time so they can buy a bunch of stuff? Why no just cut checks to people? What's the point of the pretend work?

because if people were just to recieve a check every month, that would be communism. and we don't want that.

emptyset · 2005-09-20 Reply Admin

dubwai:
Actually it's a perfectly valid argument. Your straw men are pretty ridiculous, though. If you are going to use a straw man argument, you should at least try to disguise it as such.

nope!

emptyset · 2005-09-20 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
Maybe you should find out what a libertarian is, or explain why a nonsense attack like this is any better than what about you're complaining.

maybe you shouldn't be so afraid to end a sentence with a preposition. i know perfectly well the traits and characteristics of libertarians that i'm 98% effective at identifying them in the wild.

emptyset · 2005-09-20 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
The world is run by people who belong to a club of sorts. There is something like a gentleman's agreement between members of this club to not screw each other, at least not in certain ways. There also seems to be an agreement to treat members of the "out group" as- well, as precisely that. Clothing is a signalling device. The rules are sometimes arbitrary (do you know why the bottom button of a single breasted jacket is left undone? or why a button down shirt is more casual than a point collar?- historical accident in both cases), but, then, the particular phonemes that make up a word are the result of historical accident as well; what matters is that they are agreed upon.

I'm not saying that I approve of this- I'd much prefer a society in which social standing was determined by analytic ability ;). As a programmer, I wouldn't try to implement a comparison based sort that ran in O(n) time, just because I disapproved of O(n log n) algorithms. Hierarchy in primate groups seems to be as immutable as constraints on computation- forgetting that people are basically very smart chimps is always a mistake (my apologies to any Creationists out there), and generally a costly one.

The thing is that, as a programmer, I figure I'm a fair bit smarter than most of the members of the club (having an IQ- and yes, I know that the entire concept of IQ is controversial these days- between the 60th and 90th percentile is an aid to getting into, and advancing within, the club- higher than that is a strike against you). Even if I wasn't raised so that the rules were second nature (and trust me, I wasn't), I'm capable of figuring them out- in fact, I know them better than most people born into the club (I don't have problems modelling others' internal state, so I clearly don't have Aspergers, but I'm prone to the same kind of obsessiveness, and when I decided to learn how to dress I learned everything I could about it). Clothing is just one signalling mechanism, but it's an important part, and the first hurdle.

and i'm the crazy?

emptyset · 2005-09-20 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
So is it the fact that he was responsible for executing dissidents that first attracted you to him, or that he spearheaded the placement of homosexuals into concentration camps?

this is incorrect. where do you see this garbage about che guevara?

2005-09-20 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
I think most programmers would be doing themselves a favor if they learned to dress well. I was exclusively a T-shirt and jeans guy until well into my twenties, and since my first programming job was in an academic setting, it wasn't a problem. But once I left that job (the pay was not great), I started to notice that programmers and engineers were often treated like second class citizens, even in organizations where they were among the most important employees (in terms of the bottom line).

The world is run by people who belong to a club of sorts. There is something like a gentleman's agreement between members of this club to not screw each other, at least not in certain ways. There also seems to be an agreement to treat members of the "out group" as- well, as precisely that. Clothing is a signalling device. The rules are sometimes arbitrary (do you know why the bottom button of a single breasted jacket is left undone? or why a button down shirt is more casual than a point collar?- historical accident in both cases), but, then, the particular phonemes that make up a word are the result of historical accident as well; what matters is that they are agreed upon.

I'm not saying that I approve of this- I'd much prefer a society in which social standing was determined by analytic ability ;). As a programmer, I wouldn't try to implement a comparison based sort that ran in O(n) time, just because I disapproved of O(n log n) algorithms. Hierarchy in primate groups seems to be as immutable as constraints on computation- forgetting that people are basically very smart chimps is always a mistake (my apologies to any Creationists out there), and generally a costly one.

The thing is that, as a programmer, I figure I'm a fair bit smarter than most of the members of the club (having an IQ- and yes, I know that the entire concept of IQ is controversial these days- between the 60th and 90th percentile is an aid to getting into, and advancing within, the club- higher than that is a strike against you). Even if I wasn't raised so that the rules were second nature (and trust me, I wasn't), I'm capable of figuring them out- in fact, I know them better than most people born into the club (I don't have problems modelling others' internal state, so I clearly don't have Aspergers, but I'm prone to the same kind of obsessiveness, and when I decided to learn how to dress I learned everything I could about it). Clothing is just one signalling mechanism, but it's an important part, and the first hurdle.

I'm also smart enough (and have spent enough time in NYC) to never pay retail. In fact, I try to avoid paying more than 10% of retail for most items. Decent shoes start at $300.00 US (Allen Edmonds is a good deal at around that, for the budget minded, and EGs are along the same lines- a bit nicer, but harder to get cheap- but make sure you understand the level of formality of each style before you buy; the AE Park Avenue is a good choice for professional situations), and decent suits start around $1500.00 (retail). My current wardrobe would cost about $50,000.00 at retail. I've spent less than $5000.00 on it (and another few thousand on tailoring). I would guess that my return on that investment is several thousand percent, plus some intangibles (like not being treated like a servant). I am at least sure of one thing- in any professional situation I will be better dressed than anyone else there.

To fit really well, clothing has to be custom made, but only a few tailors are capable of producing clothes that are as good as high end RTW, so unless you have really unusual dimensions you're much better off buying RTW (at a deep discount) and having it tailored, if price matters to you (big hint on the club- try to get suits that have no buttonholes on the sleeves, and come with the buttons in a bag in the breast pocket- then get functional buttonholes sewn once the sleeves have been altered- functional buttonholes mark you as a "Master of the Universe"(TM), and command instant respect from other "Masters of the Universe"(TM)- think the business card scene in "American Psycho").

If all of this seems just a little bit silly- yes, yes, it is tremendously silly. Almost every really brilliant programmer I've ever known seemed to have been dressed by their blind, mother- a few days before. Most of them lacked even the rudiments of business etiquette. None of them bothered to disguise their intelligence when dealing with people who were made uncomfortable by really smart people. None of them were paid anything near what they were worth, and, if they were in professional settings, few of them were treated with the respect that they deserved. Some of them were quite content, but some of them were bitter.

I can do most of my current job in my underwear- in fact I could do it naked, if I wanted. I'm at the second level on the org chart, and report to the owner of the company. I get to make the technical decisions, for the most part. I could burn my clothes, and it would not affect my current job. I could not have gotten this job without items on my resume that required that I play the game. I get paid a reasonable salary for an executive position with a small company, but I also know that if the job ever gets too annoying I can make more money than I make now by moving to a larger (infinitely more annoying) company that is hungry for people who are both competent, and refuse to wear a jacket without functional buttonholes...

In short, this is how the world works. Dress how you want, but don't complain about how much incompetents get paid if you match your socks to your shoes, or your shirt. Also, please understand that corporate America has a pecking order- it is appropriate for the CTO to show up last to an interview (almost required at a formal institution), and it is wholly inappropriate to call him Beavis or Butthead. The only one of these guys worth thinking about hiring for a corporate position is the "sit down" guy- he sounds like a good programmer. They should have offered him the job, if everything else looked good, but also lowered the offer by 10k or more, assuming that he was worth more than he could command.

WTF? How does your company stay profitable?

2005-09-20 Reply Admin

Anonymous:

WTF? How does your company stay profitable?

By actually knowing something about the world.

I completetly agree with everything he's said. Some people on here have stated they would refuse to wear a suit to an interview. That's exactly what this is about. If you can't put the effort in, to show that you're willing to make yourself look good, why on earth should a company pay you what you think your worth?

You can go far if you put the effort in, and care about your appearance. As vain as it seems, it's true. The corporate world, where people earn what they're worth, will seldom give a shit if you can't put on a suit.

brazzy · 2005-09-20 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
Anonymous:

WTF? How does your company stay profitable?
By actually knowing something about the world.

I completetly agree with everything he's said. Some people on here have stated they would refuse to wear a suit to an interview. That's exactly what this is about. If you can't put the effort in, to show that you're willing to make yourself look good, why on earth should a company pay you what you think your worth?

Because they're not hiring me to look good, but to get work done?

Anonymous:

You can go far if you put the effort in, and care about your appearance. As vain as it seems, it's true. The corporate world, where people earn what they're worth, will seldom give a shit if you can't put on a suit.

True except that part of "earn what they're worth", though of course "worth" lies in the eye of the beholder. Besides, to "go far" in that world, wearing a suit is only the first step. Next comes ass-kissing and backstabbing. I don't want to go down that road, so why should I even make the first step?

UncleMidriff · 2005-09-20 Reply Admin

brazzy:
Anonymous:
Anonymous:

WTF? How does your company stay profitable?
By actually knowing something about the world.

I completetly agree with everything he's said. Some people on here have stated they would refuse to wear a suit to an interview. That's exactly what this is about. If you can't put the effort in, to show that you're willing to make yourself look good, why on earth should a company pay you what you think your worth?

Because they're not hiring me to look good, but to get work done?

Anonymous:

You can go far if you put the effort in, and care about your appearance. As vain as it seems, it's true. The corporate world, where people earn what they're worth, will seldom give a shit if you can't put on a suit.

True except that part of "earn what they're worth", though of course "worth" lies in the eye of the beholder. Besides, to "go far" in that world, wearing a suit is only the first step. Next comes ass-kissing and backstabbing. I don't want to go down that road, so why should I even make the first step?

I had no idea that those who willingly wear a suit are barreling down the path to moral destruction. And I don't like the implication all over this thread that people who willingly submit to their employer's strict dress code are soulless, inept, ass-kissing lovers of vanity.

The business world is how it is; you can whine, bitch, moan, and gripe about it all you like, but doing so will most likely change nothing. If the clothing you wear is really such a moral issue with you and you have the moral courage to stand up to employers in the name of wearing blue jeans to work, then I admire you. Keep fighting the good fight. But don't try to imply that those of us who genuinely just don't give a crap whether we're in blue jeans or in a suit are somehow morally deficient. And if you do, please realize how much like "them" (the suit wearers who judge interview candidates strictly on what they're wearing) doing so makes you

phred · 2005-09-20 Reply Admin

I liked the "beavis and butthead" one. I've had the temptation, you know, you go to an interview, you might not be that enthused and the more you see the mechanics play out, the more convinced you'll not have anything to do with them. The bad manners, make the interviewee wait way past his appointment, the idle mannerisms meant to make sure the interviewee is perceived to be totally invisible in the presense of those with the good fortune to be already hired. Its too bad that sometimes with the market being employer based people really have to suffer indignities to get work, and the interviewers know it and make it pay.

phred · 2005-09-20 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
dubwai:
Dude, sorry but that makes you seem like a total psycho.

Maybe I am. I was completely focused on trying to concentrate on a staticky long distance call to a non-native-English speaker, and she was physically leaning on me to see this picture, after I had told her I was interviewing someone.

I'm typically the model of politeness, but I have absolutely zero patience for that kind of rudeness. Something in me just snapped and I unfortunately responded with as much rudeness as I was given.

We'll probably read about you "snapping" at work some day.

hank miller · 2005-09-20 Reply Admin

Anonymous:

To fit really well, clothing has to be custom made,

If you ever go to a third would country, (Thiland), look for a taylor.   Often you can get a nice suit that fits you perfectly, for cheap. More money than jeans and a t-shirt, but it will be more (!) comfortable than shorts, flip-flops, and an old t-shirt.

Even if you only wear it to funerals and weddings, you will be glad you did it.

If you consider a job where a suit is a must, see if you can arrange a business trip to such a country early on.   Wear the cheapest suit (that still looks nice - goodwill or such) until you then.   May or may not work out, but if it does you will never want to go back to casual dress again.

You are still looking at a couple grand to buy this suit, but that is what you would spend on a nice suit and alterations here, so it isn't too big a deal.

Richard Nixon · 2005-09-20 Reply Admin

phred:
I liked the "beavis and butthead" one. I've had the temptation, you know, you go to an interview, you might not be that enthused and the more you see the mechanics play out, the more convinced you'll not have anything to do with them. The bad manners, make the interviewee wait way past his appointment, the idle mannerisms meant to make sure the interviewee is perceived to be totally invisible in the presense of those with the good fortune to be already hired. Its too bad that sometimes with the market being employer based people really have to suffer indignities to get work, and the interviewers know it and make it pay.

You might have a persecution complex. I will order a hug for you.

2005-09-20 Reply Admin

Anonymous:

Anonymous:

I can do most of my current job in my underwear- in fact I could do it naked, if I wanted. I'm at the second level on the org chart, and report to the owner of the company. I get to make the technical decisions, for the most part. I could burn my clothes, and it would not affect my current job. I could not have gotten this job without items on my resume that required that I play the game. I get paid a reasonable salary for an executive position with a small company, but I also know that if the job ever gets too annoying I can make more money than I make now by moving to a larger (infinitely more annoying) company that is hungry for people who are both competent, and refuse to wear a jacket without functional buttonholes...

WTF? How does your company stay profitable?

Note my quote above: my current company does not care much about clothes- we are too small to focus on inessentials. OTOH, a lot of very profitable companies do have strict dress codes. At a lot of others, where programmers are allowed leeway that others don't have, that leeway is patronizing- it's the equivalent of sitting at the kids' table at Thanksgiving, where you can play with your food, and make fart jokes.

If the rules in this post seem complicated, or too much to deal with, I have bad news for you- this is the tip of the iceberg. Learning to dress properly is a major project, if you didn't get the rules drilled into you as a child. That's the point.

2005-09-20 Reply Admin

When I do an interview, I ask them to explain something on the whiteboard. I make sure to put a permanent marker closest to the board. Attention to detail is important.

treypole · 2005-09-20 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
When I do an interview, I ask them to explain something on the whiteboard. I make sure to put a permanent marker closest to the board. Attention to detail is important.

hehehe..

I work for a whiteboard company - can I have your account? :)

2005-09-20 Reply Admin

You guys and your scary applicants are freaking me out. It's as if I should have a sign in my office that reads "Please don't shoot your potential employer."

2005-09-20 Reply Admin

It should be a requirement for all applicants to surrender their firearms at the door.

Maybe their should be metal detectors?

2005-09-20 Reply Admin

funk dat... I work with a bunch of old ladies and they are nosy/inconsiderate as hell... props on the toss!

2005-09-21 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
Anonymous:

“What kind of tree/animal would you be?”

I would be a bannana tree...for obvious reasons.

A monkey, coz, y'know, monkey-sex.

2005-09-21 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
Anonymous:

I would be a bannana tree...for obvious reasons.

@Scaredy Cat...you're sick and need to seek professional help.

But seriously, I thought about that animal/tree question and it's very disturbing.

You can take any animal or tree and it will inevitably end up being a sick/perverted/psychotic response. Think about a horse, sheep, or oyster.

And if it's not perverted and disgusting, it has a negative connotation. Think about a turtle, ape, or venus fly trap.

Either way, you look bad.

I think the question is stupid.

Maybe that's the point of the test - to see how you respond to a stupid question.

brazzy · 2005-09-21 Reply Admin

UncleMidriff:
brazzy:

Anonymous:

You can go far if you put the effort in, and care about your appearance. As vain as it seems, it's true. The corporate world, where people earn what they're worth, will seldom give a shit if you can't put on a suit.

True except that part of "earn what they're worth", though of course "worth" lies in the eye of the beholder. Besides, to "go far" in that world, wearing a suit is only the first step. Next comes ass-kissing and backstabbing. I don't want to go down that road, so why should I even make the first step?

I had no idea that those who willingly wear a suit are barreling down the path to moral destruction.

If they wear something they'd rather not for the sole reason to "go far" in the business world they're compromising their individuality for ambition. Sure, it's a very small step, but not essentially different from kissing up to an incompetent asshole for the sake of your career.

UncleMidriff:

The business world is how it is; you can whine, bitch, moan, and gripe about it all you like, but doing so will most likely change nothing. If the clothing you wear is really such a moral issue with you and you have the moral courage to stand up to employers in the name of wearing blue jeans to work, then I admire you. Keep fighting the good fight. But don't try to imply that those of us who genuinely just don't give a crap whether we're in blue jeans or in a suit are somehow morally deficient. And if you do, please realize how much like "them" (the suit wearers who judge interview candidates strictly on what they're wearing) doing so makes you

I may have overstated my case, and you misunderstood my stance. I'm willing to dress nicely when the situation warrants it. But I do not wear ties, because they're an idiotic accessory. In the five or so job interviews I've been in, this has not been a problem as far as I can tell: two were successful.

I will also not wear long pants and a jacket in sweltering heat, which is beyond idiocy. I know that mass idiocy is the norm. Fun fact: this summer the Japanese government has run a big campaign (christened "Cool Biz") to make office workers stop wearing full suits in midsummer and waste insane amounts of power on air conditioning to make it bearable. To sell the idea to all the little salarymen deathly afraid to stand out by violating conventions, the prime minister has shown up without tie and jacket at most occasions throughout the summer.

Richard Nixon · 2005-09-21 Reply Admin

brazzy:
If they wear something they'd rather not for the sole reason to "go far" in the business world they're compromising their individuality for ambition. Sure, it's a very small step, but not essentially different from kissing up to an incompetent asshole for the sake of your career.

And what's wrong with compromising to make more money or move up to a job you'd enjoy more? You sound pretty young so you probably don't have children to provide for so perhaps your perspective is a bit different - I find a little loss of individuality quite a slight loss in comparison to feeding my children, letting them have their pick of colleges, and retiring to a fund large enough to travel the world and never worry.

2005-09-21 Reply Admin

I was completely focused on trying to concentrate on a staticky long distance call to a non-native-English speaker, and she was physically leaning on me to see this picture, after I had told her I was interviewing someone.

Why no pimp-slap? Way to rule your cubicle with an iron fist, Ming!

2005-09-21 Reply Admin

People don't pimp-slap as much as they used to.

Such a shame.

Yojimbo · 2005-09-21 Reply Admin

RFlowers:
I would like to throw my 0010 cents in on the topic of hours at work. Myself, I would not like to work 60+ hours, although I could do it every once in a while. I am a 40 hour guy, and I know this hurts my career overall. I'm willing to make the trade-off and I have made decisions fully aware of the consequences. I've told others (go-getters) this, and they think I'm a fool. But these guys don't have families, not many friends, and their apartments are basically cubicles anyway. (They don't own their own home; maybe at retirement.) I envy the money they make, but I made my decision being aware what I was missing.

That being said, there do seem to be a few that "have it all," but maybe it just seems that way.

Okay. Let's make something really clear here. YOU are the sane one. Not the guys (or women) who spend 60+ hours a week at work.   And honestly, you're not missing anything, unless having more "stuff" and less life in which to enjoy the stuff is something to be missed.   Or perhaps not knowing who your spouse is or your kids if you have them, or are going to have them. And of course, you know that if not now - if you lack the experience now - that doesn't mean that you can't strike out on your own later with similiarly minded people.

Please don't think you're missing anything.   You made the right decision, but you're still letting the wrong way of thinking create guilt... and that tends to destroy the enjoyment you could have in the rightness of your decision.   Read on, if you will. ;)

Work is what one does in order to afford one's life.   Work ISN'T your life.   It was never meant to be.   We have all this influence from the Puritans and their work ethic; we have people who say proudly that they "never missed a day of work in their lives" or that they "never call in sick, they always get to work" and they're all so chuffed with themselves about something that is, to my eyes, incredibly sad and pathetic.

Never missed a day of work?   And when you die, is that going to comfort you as your family who are all essentially strangers (if indeed they haven't left long ago) file into the room to say good-bye?

Never took a sick day?   Gee, thanks, jerk -- by going in sick, you made MY spouse sick and then I got it.   Take the damn sick day, that's what they're THERE FOR.

As for working 60 hours a week, with 2-3 weeks off a year.

No way -- that's not the way to achieve increased productively.   Look at Europe. There are countries in which people work 35 hour weeks, often 4 day work weeks, and the standard is 6-8 weeks off a year, and that is where you START.    People understand that when they're at work, they're working, and they work HARD.

But it's understood that work, even enjoyable work, is NOT your life. It's what you do to AFFORD your life and have things you want to have.   There is no confusion between the two.

Working 60 hours a week? Does that ensure that the employee will actually WORK more hours? No. All sorts of studies show that when you put someone in a work environment where they work so many hours that work IS their life, all their social outlets will occur at work. The typical chat around the watercooler, at the photocopy machine, during lunch, on the phone, etc. People DON'T actually work more. They DON'T typically get more done.   They're just *there* more hours.

Wouldn't you rather have people work their asses off during the hours they are there.. really work hard and produce -- and then leave and enjoy their lives -- then come back, and work hard again.

That's balance.

So, Mr./Ms. Flowers -- you're the one who has it right. It's a shame that you seem a bit guilty over it, and it's an even worse shame that we're so messed up in this particular society that we've confused productivety with "hours present" -- I wonder how long the moronic puritan work ethic is going to continue to rob people people of their lives, while at the same time masquerading as "the way to really get things done."

I hope, I truly hope, that you're able to find a job that will let you be *very* productive 35-40 hours a week, 40-44 weeks a year -- so you can work hard and accomplish a great deal when you're at work -- in a place where people don't waste time chatting, taking extended trips to get hot water for coffee, coming in late, doing all the things that employees who work too many hours *always* do.   That you find a place where you can show what you can do, do it in a reasonable period of time, afford the life you want, and at the same time know (and have the people around you know) that life isn't what you do for work -- it's what you do AFTER work.

Something that adds to this problem; the number of people in charge who have damaged their lives so badly that their only outlet is work. And since it's that way for THEM... it's that way for their employees.   If you find a boss or company owner who understands that life is not what you do at work, who values tele-commuting (I know that I get *much* more done in 6 hours in my home office than I ever did in 12 hours at the office and the same is true for my spouse) and values the lives of his or her employees, then you WILL be able to have it all.

And you know what? If you don't find that..   perhaps in time you'll create it yourself. The more people who understand that this is reality, the less "We are proud that we work 6 days a week and never see our families and this is the only way to be productive" idiots we'll have... not idiots, misguided sad people who unfortunately poison everyone and everything around them.

Good luck -- and when you do create your own business, consulting or otherwise, try to remember this and treat your employees accordingly.   Most (not all) but most will respond appropriately and work harder. Those who don't are people you don't want working for you -- they're the type who need the 60 hour (but only really work the minimum to avoid getting let go) work week in order to feel that they're "doing something" and will take advantage if they're actually valued as human beings.

It's going to be a long transition.

Nah'mean? and Other Interview Stories

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