• Mark Miller (unregistered)

    This reminds me of the new Battlestar Galactica series. Cmdr. Adama says in the beginning of the series that "none of the computers on the ship are networked", to keep enemy hackers (Cylons) out. This sounds like the same thing. I wonder if their IT manager got this idea from the show. Bizarre!

    You know if they'd just switch to Unix/Linux with dumb or X terminals (and sound permissions management) they could have their networking without as many risks...Or if they understood role management under Windows XP or Vista, same thing...

  • George Nacht (unregistered)

    Overdue Retirement? Yes.

    ,,retired" should be the company. In Blade Runner sense of word.

  • none (unregistered) in reply to jtl

    Been there - done that. At the university where I work you are 'advised' not to alone in your office with a student. We just got fancy new offices with big heavy doors. The doors self-close for fire regulations We can't remove the self-closing mechanism (fire regs)

    Solution - every fire extiguisher in the building has been removed from it's mount and is used to prop open the office door whenever you have a tutorial with a student.

  • Dave (unregistered)

    Why does not using comments in vss mean that reverting to an earlier version is impossible, rather than just being harder to identify where you're rolling back to?

  • Anonymous (unregistered)

    Don't laugh too much - they're still in business aren't they?

  • TheLurker (unregistered)

    CMM level -9

  • ClaudeSuck.de (unregistered) in reply to snoofle
    snoofle:
    Lyle:
    I have the same situation. Only when I want to print a memo, I have to make my own paper.

    --Lyle

    If you're gonna do something, at least go all the way..

    I have to grow my own trees to make my own paper...

    I had to create Earth so I can grow trees to get my paper.

  • ClaudeSuck.de (unregistered) in reply to jtl
    jtl:
    1. Criminals can enter buildings through doors. 2. Criminals are bad. 3. Doors are bad.

    We shall remove all doors to protect the business.

    1. Hackers are bad.
    2. Social Engineering is bad.
    3. Employees are bad.

    --> We have to remove all employees, too. Which leads to:

    1. Bosses are bad.
    2. Business is bad.
    3. Company is bad.

    --> To achieve the highest level of security we have to remove the company.

  • Dave (unregistered) in reply to none
    none:
    Been there - done that. At the university where I work you are 'advised' not to alone in your office with a student. We just got fancy new offices with big heavy doors. The doors self-close for fire regulations We can't remove the self-closing mechanism (fire regs)

    Solution - every fire extinguisher in the building has been removed from it's mount and is used to prop open the office door whenever you have a tutorial with a student.

    I'd rather burn to death than discuss programming with a lecturer anyway. For one thing, they're usually shit at teaching. Secondly, they'll probably try and flog you some crap book they've written but which they've failed to have made part of the core curriculum.

  • Dave (unregistered) in reply to Anonymous
    Anonymous:
    Don't laugh too much - they're still in business aren't they?

    I think the networks are bad excuse might be just that.

    They're still in business, they're presumably saving a fortune by not having to deal with firewalls, handling the archiving of email, internet bandwidth and can probably get away with a cheaper anti virus solution - plus any outbreak will be more limited. They'll be wasting next to no time with people chatting/surfing etc when they're supposed to be working. Sure, there are the obvious downsides but tough shit - deal with it or leave. I've worked in places where the recommendation is to not have email clients running as they are distracting - the urge is to respond to the shiny new email icon by immediately opening and reading the email. Instead you check your email a few times a day and then get on with some work. If you really need a response now then pick up the phone - but be aware you'll be disurbing someone so it had better be something which can't wait half a day.

  • Theo (unregistered)

    Sorry my comment is only available in the comments notebook.

  • Wouter Lievens (unregistered)

    Sounds a bit like the computer systems in the re-imagined Battlestar Galactica if you ask me.

  • skztr (unregistered)

    When I walked into this situation regarding version control, I just started using it for at least my own work. When people are impressed by your ability to find old code and problems, they start to consider the merits of using it themselves.

    Then I got a new job.

  • (cs) in reply to Dave
    Dave:
    Anonymous:
    Don't laugh too much - they're still in business aren't they?

    I think the networks are bad excuse might be just that.

    They're still in business, they're presumably saving a fortune by not having to deal with firewalls, handling the archiving of email, internet bandwidth and can probably get away with a cheaper anti virus solution - plus any outbreak will be more limited. They'll be wasting next to no time with people chatting/surfing etc when they're supposed to be working. Sure, there are the obvious downsides but tough shit - deal with it or leave. I've worked in places where the recommendation is to not have email clients running as they are distracting - the urge is to respond to the shiny new email icon by immediately opening and reading the email. Instead you check your email a few times a day and then get on with some work. If you really need a response now then pick up the phone - but be aware you'll be disurbing someone so it had better be something which can't wait half a day.

    On the other hand they are hamorrhaging money by having a bunch of non-standardized stand-alone PC's to maintain. They are risking loss of man-years due to their almost non-existent backup practices. All their PC's are infected with at least one virus (I know what I am talking about - I have done enduser pc support back in the sneakernet days). The company will have a serious bad time complying to SOX, all kinds of porn and pirated software will be on their PCs - making them legally vulnerable. The productivity of the typical dev is problably one third of the possible due to lack of collaboration and demotivation. Do I need to go on ?

    I think not. Sure, in a networked environment you have the dangers of web-slacking and being a slave to e-mail. So what: Let dev's know that firewall logs are being automatically aggregated so that managers can check the surf habits of their reports. And as for being a slave to e-mail: if there is no e-mail you are a slave to your phone and voicemail (which is infinetely worse IMHO).

  • AlanGriffiths (unregistered) in reply to ObiWayneKenobi
    ObiWayneKenobi:

    The REAL WTF is still that she didn't walk out the second she found about these "practices". It's only going to hurt her resume longterm - trust me from experience having worked at similar places :(

    I've worked in similar places too. It can be great: there are so many obvious ways to make an improvement! (And if there is too much resistance then you still get to change your organisation.)

  • Quango (unregistered)

    Viruses are written by people. Hackers are people. Viruses and hackers are bad. Therefore people are bad.

    Therefore our company will have no people.

  • John Doe (unregistered)

    Statistics show that 90% of all bank robbers have eaten bread in a time interval of 48 hours before the bank robbery.

    1. Bank robbers are bad.
    2. Bread is bad.
    3. Forbid bread.
  • ClaudeSuck.de (unregistered) in reply to James R. Twine
    James R. Twine:
    Ken B:
    robzyc:
    Wait.. THIS computer is on the Internet!! Why didn't someone tell me! OMG!

    pulls plug

    ...

    Kids these days! Everyone knows that the right way to show that yo*^%^#%/@!)%$

    NO CARRIER

    Heh - beat me to it...! I was gonna post something similar while fashing back to the 300 baud modem on my VIC-20! :)

    That's nothing. I do TCP/IP with a tamtam and an acoustic coupler. They might use that as an alternative. You could still transfer viruses but when they try to send information to the outside it will be so slow that the hackers will die waiting for the data.

    1. TCP/IP is good
    2. Tamtam is good
    3. Music is good
    4. Attention to viruses steganed into the music (like listening hard rock backwards)
  • Anonymous (unregistered) in reply to cklam
    cklam:
    Dave:
    Anonymous:
    Don't laugh too much - they're still in business aren't they?

    I think the networks are bad excuse might be just that.

    They're still in business, they're presumably saving a fortune by not having to deal with firewalls, handling the archiving of email, internet bandwidth and can probably get away with a cheaper anti virus solution - plus any outbreak will be more limited. They'll be wasting next to no time with people chatting/surfing etc when they're supposed to be working. Sure, there are the obvious downsides but tough shit - deal with it or leave. I've worked in places where the recommendation is to not have email clients running as they are distracting - the urge is to respond to the shiny new email icon by immediately opening and reading the email. Instead you check your email a few times a day and then get on with some work. If you really need a response now then pick up the phone - but be aware you'll be disurbing someone so it had better be something which can't wait half a day.

    On the other hand they are hamorrhaging money by having a bunch of non-standardized stand-alone PC's to maintain. They are risking loss of man-years due to their almost non-existent backup practices. All their PC's are infected with at least one virus (I know what I am talking about - I have done enduser pc support back in the sneakernet days). The company will have a serious bad time complying to SOX, all kinds of porn and pirated software will be on their PCs - making them legally vulnerable. The productivity of the typical dev is problably one third of the possible due to lack of collaboration and demotivation. Do I need to go on ?

    I think not. Sure, in a networked environment you have the dangers of web-slacking and being a slave to e-mail. So what: Let dev's know that firewall logs are being automatically aggregated so that managers can check the surf habits of their reports. And as for being a slave to e-mail: if there is no e-mail you are a slave to your phone and voicemail (which is infinetely worse IMHO).

    But they are still in business.

  • ClaudeSuck.de (unregistered) in reply to Outlaw Programmer
    Outlaw Programmer:
    Assuming their software is actually decent, by far the worst part of this WTF is that the fixes are so simple yet they will probably never be implemented. Most articles on this site point out horrors that would take months of refactoring, or even a total rewrite, to fix. On top of that, you'd have to fire tons of incompetent developers and painfully try to recruit fresh talent. Here, they just need to get rid of that one Luddite and they're all set; they could have a proper network setup in a day.

    It's not that I don't believe this story, it's just that you'd think that everyone else in that place would have had other work experience where the used, you know, e-mail. Does everyone there just sit around and say, "You know, it's actually kind of nice regressing back to 1974."?

    Some things that keep them from changing:

    • we have always done it like that
    • who remembers how email worked?
    • I didn't know you can do that
    • we can talk while waiting at the email/internet/xyz machine (social component)

    Due to a 2 to 3-fold increase in productivity they would get their work done much faster. As a consequence most of the time they would not look very busy, hence people would get fired. Hence more work for an individual. Hence psychological problems for the functionairely (or trade unionly) minded.

    No way, somebody wants to change that. And the boss seems to have deep faith in what his DM says.

  • ClaudeSuck.de (unregistered) in reply to OC
    OC:
    snoofle:
    Lyle:
    I have the same situation. Only when I want to print a memo, I have to make my own paper.

    --Lyle

    If you're gonna do something, at least go all the way..

    I have to grow my own trees to make my own paper...

    "Here is your box of sand, build your own computer."

    Already in the Bible you can read that it is not safe to use sand for construction. If you want to have a safe computer build it from concrete or stone.

  • ClaudeSuck.de (unregistered) in reply to MitchAubin
    MitchAubin:
    That is absolutely unbelievable!!

    How a software company that does web apps could possibly do it without having a network. Those people are certainly not aware of any security issue because they have no expertise in networking at all!!!

    Also, the Door thing, very funny!

    I wonder how they connect to SQL Server and IIS. Unless every developer/tester/QA member... has his own copy. Or do they also stick-networking with the HTTP and SQL requests?

  • Elek (unregistered) in reply to jtl
    jtl:
    1. Criminals can enter buildings through doors. 2. Criminals are bad. 3. Doors are bad.

    We shall remove all doors to protect the business.

    Actually, I think that:

    1. Buildings are bad.

    We shall remove the whole building to protect the business.

  • Ric (unregistered)
    There's also an Email PC! This is another walk to a different office: all email addresses are in the same Outlook session. No one is allowed to have email access on their own PC (someone might download something from a hacker).

    What if the email PC is infected? The virus is going to spread anywhere through USB drives anyway.

  • (cs) in reply to max
    max:
    To be fair, the security philosophy of 'networks are bad' is what saved Galactica in the initial Cylon attack on the colonies.
    And yet I've never seen them run around with a USB stick. WTF.
  • Craig Beere (unregistered) in reply to real_aardvark
    real_aardvark:
    Well, TRWTF here is Windows.

    (Ducks) No, honestly. This lunacy obviously started from the (correct) observation that early Windows platforms, networked to the outside world, were prone to viruses.

    And I suppose that the early platforms of other operating systems weren't prone to viruses and other malware?

    Maybe you haven't noticed that the malware generally considered to be the first big piece of malware, the Morris Worm, did not affect any of Microsoft's operating systems?

    And I hope you are certainly not sugesting that there aren't any malware for *nix based systems...

  • ClaudeSuck.de (unregistered) in reply to Desipis
    Desipis:
    Just wait till they realize you can transmit virus through files on a USB key...

    And then, with all people in the meeting room even influenza virii might be spread out. Or HIV (if they get too close one to another)

  • Glenn (unregistered)

    Once she is finished composing her resignation email she should call over the intercom to tell her manager that he has an email.

  • (cs) in reply to Craig Beere
    Craig Beere:
    real_aardvark:
    Well, TRWTF here is Windows.

    (Ducks) No, honestly. This lunacy obviously started from the (correct) observation that early Windows platforms, networked to the outside world, were prone to viruses.

    And I suppose that the early platforms of other operating systems weren't prone to viruses and other malware?

    Maybe you haven't noticed that the malware generally considered to be the first big piece of malware, the Morris Worm, did not affect any of Microsoft's operating systems?

    And I hope you are certainly not sugesting that there aren't any malware for *nix based systems...

    Ah, 1988 -- I remember those days. An era when Windows 2.0 was presciently running on a universal network platform, and when the designers overruled the company policy never to make any command look like a Unix command by implementing perfect copies of rsh, finger, and sendmail.

    Good thing they had better security in place and could thus prevent the worm from having its evil way.

    Not a particularly sophisticated attack, the Morris worm, was it? I sometimes wonder what a man who is so clueless about infinite series that he used 1/7 as the filter for forced replication is now doing at MIT.

    The point wasn't about "early versions" of OSes, although I contend that Windows was far more vulnerable than most, almost by design. The point wasn't even to bash Windows, although I agree it looks that way. It's a little difficult to phrase more emolliently. And I'm certainly not denying that rootkits and the like exist for Unix systems, although they don't seem to be very effective in the wild.

    I was merely trying to suggest that, in the unique cultural world of the Web explosion and the near-universal presence of something that was still intended to be a desktop machine rather than a server/networked device, it's not surprising that an extreme security lockdown like this was hatched up.

    You will note that I abandoned this tongue-in-cheek assertion twice, lower down.

    Of course, that said security lockdown is still in place is far more of a WTF.

    PS Typed from a Windows XP machine (Home Edition, no less). I'm reasonably happy with this one.

  • (cs)
    They use VSS for their web product but... ...They don't know about 'branching'
    Well, VSS don't know about branching either. No big deal :) (Tell that to a MS platafor develloper... I'm trying to tell it to some 150 now and make them use SVN. That is not easy.) It is not surprising that MS doesn't sell it anymore.

    Now, TRWFT is that, once there was a new article, the "expand full text" stops working. Or maybe a version controler software that son't know about branches is worse... I'm still undecided.

  • ThisIsMe (unregistered) in reply to jtl
    jtl:
    1. Criminals can enter buildings through doors. 2. Criminals are bad. 3. Doors are bad.

    We shall remove all doors to protect the business.

    Same goes for windows ... criminals break through windows all the time.

    oh .. and some of them use venting ducts, better remove all of those .. in fact, that's going to leave us with a sealed, airtight box to place our "server" in .. :\

    (I wonder if we still have a budget for a snorkel?)

  • Jim (unregistered)

    Let me guess... The development manager's name is 'Adama'

  • ClaudeSuck.de (unregistered) in reply to Mcoder
    Mcoder:
    They use VSS for their web product but... ...They don't know about 'branching'
    Well, VSS don't know about branching either. No big deal :) (Tell that to a MS platafor develloper... I'm trying to tell it to some 150 now and make them use SVN. That is not easy.) It is not surprising that MS doesn't sell it anymore.

    Now, TRWFT is that, once there was a new article, the "expand full text" stops working. Or maybe a version controler software that son't know about branches is worse... I'm still undecided.

    In my VSS I have a sub-menu branch under SourceSafe. And even a MergeBranches...

  • Kuba (unregistered) in reply to Dazed
    Dazed:
    Sure, some managers are hopeless cases - I don't deny that. But techies often shoot themselves in the foot by either going in and shouting that everything is a mess (I plead guilty to having done it myself when I was young and green) or by changing things unilaterally. Getting things changed nearly always requires gentle massage* over a period of time, and getting the manager used to the idea that things can be improved. It generally takes at least a few weeks to know whether you have a chance of success.

    It takes more than a "gentle massage". You have to make the manager believe it was his/her idea. Then it's an easy ride.

  • genitus (unregistered) in reply to ClaudeSuck.de
    ClaudeSuck.de:
    Mcoder:
    They use VSS for their web product but... ...They don't know about 'branching'
    Well, VSS don't know about branching either. No big deal :) (Tell that to a MS platafor develloper... I'm trying to tell it to some 150 now and make them use SVN. That is not easy.) It is not surprising that MS doesn't sell it anymore.

    Now, TRWFT is that, once there was a new article, the "expand full text" stops working. Or maybe a version controler software that son't know about branches is worse... I'm still undecided.

    In my VSS I have a sub-menu branch under SourceSafe. And even a MergeBranches...

    Me too but they are grayed out by default!!

  • Kuba (unregistered) in reply to real_aardvark
    real_aardvark:
    I was merely trying to suggest that, in the unique cultural world of the Web explosion and the near-universal presence of something that was still intended to be a desktop machine rather than a server/networked device, it's not surprising that an extreme security lockdown like this was hatched up.

    You will note that I abandoned this tongue-in-cheek assertion twice, lower down.

    Of course, that said security lockdown is still in place is far more of a WTF.

    I "administer" a network for about 15 people in a small research lab. We have a CentOS machine which does transparent network proxying and does on-access scan to everything coming from http servers. Egress filtering is done too, it's even able to catch simple uploading of files which are not supposed to be sent out. A few directories on the file server are indexed nightly and the partial signatures are compared on every PUT request (whether http, ftp or email attachment). This prevents random screwups where somebody would by mistake attach the "wrong" file. It all seems working relatively well, uses 100% open source software, and was set up by an amateur (me) whose main job is something entirely different.

    We've never had big virus outbreaks -- in fact, from what I recall, there have been two virus infections over the course of last 5 years, they were reasonably localized and one of them happened when windows 98 was still on all the desktops (we followed Win 95->98->XP path). Heck, they all happened before filtering was in place (not that it matters much with such a small sample size). The second "infection" was when someone got some malware installed on their PC - this actually prompted me to install the filters.

    If they'd get a reasonable professional (knowledgeable, not overly greedy/bombastic like some are) to set up their network, I bet it could all use free or secondhand tech, and would be just as safe (or safer) than their current idiocy. "My" lab runs just fine on all-eBay IP phones, managed PoE network switches, UPSes, servers and hardware (two racks, patch panels, etc). For a "small" business (say < 50 people), huge cost savings can be had by using secondhand stuff, even if they'd decide to stay all-Microsoft on the servers. But most "consultants" like telling people that it's big bucks or highway -- what a wast of money :(

    I can almost see some replies saying "but what about support for the hardware, yada yada yada". It's called self-insurance. If you get your stuff set up for 1/3 (or less) of list price of new stuff, then if anything breaks you just buy one more, off eBay. It still costs less.

    I wonder how much their printing supplies cost, if everyone has a tiny printer on their desk. Or do they sneakernet the print jobs to a print PC?

  • ClaudeSuck.de (unregistered) in reply to Jim
    Jim:
    Let me guess... The development manager's name is 'Adama'

    Adama Bin Loaden

  • (cs) in reply to ObiWayneKenobi
    ObiWayneKenobi:
    brettdavis4:

    And somtimes you are not able to turn things around. Nine times out of ten, a person won't be able to change things around.

    It sounds like you got a job where the organization wanted to change things and hired people to make the changes.

    The OP had to report to someone who created these moronic policies. This means the OP would need to get the buy in from the supervisor and from the people in upper management. The OP's supervisor probably won't allow these changes to be made because it would make him/her look like an idiot for not making the changes sooner.

    The OP would be better to leave ASAP then to stick around for months or years and not accomplish anything.

    Very true. Think of it this way: If the company wanted to change (i.e. they realized what they were doing was stupid) then they would have done it long ago. The fact that things were, and are, as they are means that nobody knows WTF is going on, or how things should be run, which means that anyone who points out its flaws isn't a "team player" and probably would be let go - this is why things haven't changed; anyone who tried to change it would have been fired.

    These situations are NEVER good to be in - you end up with a stretch of time on your resume where you did nothing but maintain bullshit, and that makes you undesirable to other companies.

    I've unfortunately have had a couple of stretches where I really didn't do jack shit. The first one was my first job out of college. I was unfortunately there for a year and nine months. The second one was my third job was a real WTF job and I was there for nine months. In hindsight I should have left sooner. I was about to leave at six months, but I had feelings I could turn it around. Three months later, I realized I couldn't turn it around and even Christ himself couldn't turn it around with the moronic management.

    These stretches have hurt my career and it's the main reason why I'm not as far along in my career as I should be.

    That's why I have the opinion of get out of a shitty job as quickly as possible.

  • (cs)

    This would be completely reasonable, if her workplace happened to be an NSA facility where programmers with top-secret security clearance worked on nuclear weapons control systems. In that case, TRWTF would be that they allowed an e-mail server.

    For a web shop? Uh, no.

  • negzero (unregistered)

    Management that terrible is asking you bring a printout of craigslist ads to work to search for a new job when you get a chance to use the email computer. This is unethical for sure, but so is creating loads of unnecessary work for subordinates by being a cedar-munching gerbil manager. Think of the job search as displacing all that extra burdensome time you've put in for no good reason.

    Thanks for the post, you've given me at least three interview questions for hiring managers. I will never work for a retarded company like that.

  • JohnnyPDX (unregistered) in reply to jtl
    jtl:
    1. Criminals can enter buildings through doors. 2. Criminals are bad. 3. Doors are bad.

    We shall remove all doors to protect the business.

    Bacteria travels through the air. Bacteria is bad. Air is Bad.

    Stop breathing...

  • (cs) in reply to Mark Miller
    Mark Miller:
    This reminds me of the new Battlestar Galactica series. Cmdr. Adama says in the beginning of the series that "none of the computers on the ship are networked", to keep enemy hackers (Cylons) out. This sounds like the same thing. I wonder if their IT manager got this idea from the show. Bizarre!

    Really? You don't say! Of course it sounds familiar, wonder where I heard it before?

    Mark Miller:
    You know if they'd just switch to Unix/Linux with dumb or X terminals (and sound permissions management) they could have their networking without as many risks...Or if they understood role management under Windows XP or Vista, same thing...

    How is this supposed to stop viruses? Ohh I forgot virsuses check permissions first. And of course there aren't any on linux.

  • Steve Parker (unregistered)

    I remember The Internet PC.

    We had a DES card to boot it (so that only authorised users could use it, and then only at certain times of the day). It was isolated from the network, had no FDD, and predated USB.

    It was so well hardened, that it was never used.

    Still, we got lots of viruses; FDDs brought into the workplace, spread across the Cheapernet network.

  • (cs)

    For God's sake enough with the Battlestar Galactica references. How many people now have posted that just assuming that they were the only one that clever?

    <waits for flood of more "sounds like battlestar galactica" posts>

  • (cs) in reply to negzero
    negzero:
    Management that terrible is asking you bring a printout of craigslist ads to work to search for a new job when you get a chance to use the email computer. This is unethical for sure, but so is creating loads of unnecessary work for subordinates by being a cedar-munching gerbil manager. Think of the job search as displacing all that extra burdensome time you've put in for no good reason.

    Thanks for the post, you've given me at least three interview questions for hiring managers. I will never work for a retarded company like that.

    I'm not so sure. HR or managers will certainly not tell you that you apply at a crap company (if they do, leave right away). Instead you have to read between the lines and get a feeling for what they tell you. Alone for that, you will have to have several interviews and as long as you don't accept the job you probably never know if it was a WTF company.

  • (cs) in reply to chrismcb
    chrismcb:
    Mark Miller:
    You know if they'd just switch to Unix/Linux with dumb or X terminals (and sound permissions management) they could have their networking without as many risks...Or if they understood role management under Windows XP or Vista, same thing...

    How is this supposed to stop viruses? Ohh I forgot virsuses check permissions first. And of course there aren't any on linux.

    Of course, nobody ever dared to write a *nix virus. Who told you that shit?

  • Stefan W. (unregistered)

    What is the database for (without network)? Are queries performed by phonecalls?

  • ubuntuholic (unregistered) in reply to jtl

    No friends and family use the door. Criminals come in through Windows...

  • Godot (unregistered)

    Hitler eat bread. Hitler was bad. Therefore bread is bad and has to be banished...

    Sometimes I simply want to kill people.

  • Daniel Convissor (unregistered)

    No network? Is your company based on Battlestar Galactica?

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