The Daily WTF: Curious Perversions in Information Technology

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

I wanted to type the first comment but I couldn't even log on until I had paid $0.00.

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

David's problem is obviously that he's trying to pay Orange £0.00 - if he'd just hurry up and pay them £-0.00 I'm sure his account would be reinstated.

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

Just a minor rant: There is no 12:00 AM or 12:00 PM. There's 12:00 Noon or 12:00 Midnight.

And for those who claim "it's obvious" I can easily find examples of signs where folks use 12:00 AM to mean Noon and 12:00 PM to mean midnight.

Zemm · 2014-02-14 Reply Admin

Time Pedant:
Just a minor rant: There is no 12:00 AM or 12:00 PM. There's 12:00 Noon or 12:00 Midnight.
And for those who claim "it's obvious" I can easily find examples of signs where folks use 12:00 AM to mean Noon and 12:00 PM to mean midnight.

They are wrong.

But by rights both 12am and 12 pm should be midnight: twelve hours before the "meridian" (noon). Hurry up and get rid of 12 hour time. Then we can have pedantic arguments over "24:00".

GettinSadda · 2014-02-14 Reply Admin

Time Pedant:
Just a minor rant: There is no 12:00 AM or 12:00 PM. There's 12:00 Noon or 12:00 Midnight.
And for those who claim "it's obvious" I can easily find examples of signs where folks use 12:00 AM to mean Noon and 12:00 PM to mean midnight.

Noon is 12:00pm because all of the first minute between the exact infinitely short moment of noon, and one minute passed noon are labelled as 12:00 and it is all after midday.

Similarly midnight is 12:00am.

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

Which of the following answers is the correct one? a) 12am is noon b) 12am is midnight c) 12am is wrong anyway d) 12ay can be both noon or midnight e) If you use a 24-hour clock you don't have to worry about it.

The correct answer is obviously e) (yes, I'm European).

Quango · 2014-02-14 Reply Admin

What time is it Eccles?

"it's zero o'clock"...

Right

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

24:00 is a valid time, and used to denote same date, but exactly at midnight (but not avoid confusing the masses, 23:59 is often used).

(Working with date/time and UI is hell. People just can't wrap their heads around times before they usually wake up).

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

Time Pedant:
Just a minor rant: There is no 12:00 AM or 12:00 PM. There's 12:00 Noon or 12:00 Midnight.
And for those who claim "it's obvious" I can easily find examples of signs where folks use 12:00 AM to mean Noon and 12:00 PM to mean midnight.

Big deal. I can easily find (pictures of) displays where folks use 30:21 PM to mean something or other.

Have you found one where something uses AM and PM for every time except for 12:00 and 00:00, incidentally?

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

Zemm:
Time Pedant:
Just a minor rant: There is no 12:00 AM or 12:00 PM. There's 12:00 Noon or 12:00 Midnight.
And for those who claim "it's obvious" I can easily find examples of signs where folks use 12:00 AM to mean Noon and 12:00 PM to mean midnight.

They are wrong.

But by rights both 12am and 12 pm should be midnight: twelve hours before the "meridian" (noon). Hurry up and get rid of 12 hour time. Then we can have pedantic arguments over "24:00".

That's easy. 24:00 is the 0:00 of the next day.

jinxas · 2014-02-14 Reply Admin

Give me that laptop for 999999.... Oh, sorry, I'll take two of them :)

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

Quango:
What time is it Eccles?
"it's zero o'clock"...

Right

Great Nick Kamen song: "I promised I wait for you / The zeroeth hour / I know you'll shine on through..."

Sebbe · 2014-02-14 Reply Admin

I must say, only needing 5.1618 * 10^-12 bits per log entry is pretty good.

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

Introducing: The nano bit

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

jinxas:
Give me that laptop for 999999.... Oh, sorry, I'll take two of them :)

Better take nine. That way, you save $450,- and with the saved money you can by a Toshiba L75 A7380 Laptop as well *and* still have $21,- you can spend on Amy doing engagement pictures with you and a closer circle of prospective marriage candidates... oh, wait, you can't. It's only one voucher per person.

devjoe · 2014-02-14 Reply Admin

Sebbe:
I must say, only needing 5.1618 * 10^-12 bits per log entry is pretty good.

Ah, but they are probably "compressed" by eliminating repetitions. I know Linux logs get things like "Last message repeated 11 times." (And these numbers can get large if something is REALLY spewing into the log.) Windows probably does it too. Except somehow this computer has been generating the event once per clock cycle, per CPU core, for several years, even assuming a high-end machine.

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

Zemm:
Time Pedant:
Just a minor rant: There is no 12:00 AM or 12:00 PM. There's 12:00 Noon or 12:00 Midnight.
And for those who claim "it's obvious" I can easily find examples of signs where folks use 12:00 AM to mean Noon and 12:00 PM to mean midnight.

They are wrong.

But by rights both 12am and 12 pm should be midnight: twelve hours before the "meridian" (noon). Hurry up and get rid of 12 hour time. Then we can have pedantic arguments over "24:00".

If we are referring to today's time then what you're saying makes no sense. Why would our perception of current time refer to today or tomorrow's midnight ...?

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

12am doesn't mean 12 hours before the meridian, any more than 11am is 11 hours before. 12am is the start of the hour between 12 am and 1am. So 12:01 is am, so unless you want chaos, 12:00 is also am by definition. Ditto for pm. And that is how they are defined. So 12 midday is 12pm, 12 midnight is 12am.

Examples of people using words wrongly don't change a thing.

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

Time Pedant:
Just a minor rant: There is no 12:00 AM or 12:00 PM. There's 12:00 Noon or 12:00 Midnight.
And for those who claim "it's obvious" I can easily find examples of signs where folks use 12:00 AM to mean Noon and 12:00 PM to mean midnight.

They're wrong and so are you.

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

Time Pedant:
And for those who claim "it's obvious" I can easily find examples of signs where folks use 12:00 AM to mean Noon and 12:00 PM to mean midnight.

I can find examples of people who still use GOTO in their VB. It doesn't make them, or you, right.

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

Rupee Everet:
Zemm:
Hurry up and get rid of 12 hour time. Then we can have pedantic arguments over "24:00".
If we are referring to today's time then what you're saying makes no sense. Why would our perception of current time refer to today or tomorrow's midnight ...?

The distinction is not between today's and tomorrow's midnights, but between the midnights at the beginning and end of the day. For example, a shift worker might have shifts that run from 00:00 to 08:00, 08:00 to 16:00, and 16:00 to 24:00.

You could label the first shift as running from 24:00 to 08:00, or the last as 16:00 to 00:00. However, it's clearer to use a notation for midnight that indicates the end of the day to which you're referring.

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

Damn, I was going to order a pizza by it just turned 1 minute past $[label} o'clock.

Also: WTF is up with "o'clock" anyway?

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

GettinSadda:
Noon is 12:00pm because all of the first minute between the exact infinitely short moment of noon, and one minute passed noon are labelled as 12:00 and it is all after midday.
Similarly midnight is 12:00am.

This usage seems to have become the common one since the advent of digital watches. Before that, 12 a.m. was generally accepted as being noon, with 12 p.m. being midnight.

Personally I cut the Gordian knot and call them 12 noon and 12 midnight.

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

Wrexham:
For example, a shift worker might have shifts that run from 00:00 to 08:00, 08:00 to 16:00, and 16:00 to 24:00.

At which point the shift worker would probably look at you funny because there is no such thing as 24:00. Midnight is 00:00, whenever it occurs.

If the shifts ran 02:00-10:00, 10:00-18:00 and 18:00-02:00, would you feel the need to specify the final 02:00 as 26:00? Where does the madness end?!?!

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

Quango:
What time is it Eccles?
"it's zero o'clock"...

Right

"'Old on, I've got it written down on a piece of paper..."

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

Zoom:
12:00 is also am by definition.

Errr, no - there is no such definition. a.m. stands for Ante Meridian - "before noon". Noon is neither a.m. nor p.m.

I'd agree with you that common usage now seems to be to use 12 p.m. to mean noon, but when I was young it was the other way around. Neither is correct by any kind of made up "definition" though.

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

John:
Zoom:
12:00 is also am by definition.

Errr, no - there is no such definition. a.m. stands for Ante Meridian - "before noon". Noon is neither a.m. nor p.m.

I'd agree with you that common usage now seems to be to use 12 p.m. to mean noon, but when I was young it was the other way around. Neither is correct by any kind of made up "definition" though.

You must be REALLY old!

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

So 1/1,000,000th of a second past 12noon is what exactly?

12:00pm

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

You are quite right, both 12am and 12pm are midnight - I'd never thought of that before. It has often annoyed me that so many people seem not to have heard of the unambiguous terms noon and midnight.

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

itiswhatitis:
So 1/1,000,000th of a second past 12noon is what exactly?
12:00pm

Actually it's 12:00.0000001 pm

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

itiswhatitis:
So 1/1,000,000th of a second past 12noon is what exactly?

12:00:00:000001

See also: 00:00:00:000001

And if you need that level of precision, I'm willing to bet you're not using an old-fashioned analogue clock that can't display the 24-hour clock :)

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

Snowman25:
That's easy. 24:00 is the 0:00 of the next day.

In Japan, some TV shows are aired after midnight, and TV listings may use time relative to the previous day, such as 25:30.

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

Instead of 12-hour time or 24-hour time, I propose 1-hour time:

12:00 => 0:00 AM 1:00 AM => 0:00 BM 2:00 AM => 0:00 CM ... 10:00 PM => 0:00 WM 11:00 PM => 0:00 XM

Bobby Tables · 2014-02-14 Reply Admin

Doodpants:
Instead of 12-hour time or 24-hour time, I propose 1-hour time:
12:00 => 0:00 AM 1:00 AM => 0:00 BM 2:00 AM => 0:00 CM ... 10:00 PM => 0:00 WM 11:00 PM => 0:00 XM

But that way you are underutilising the alphabet. Just use the Greek one and you'll have a perfect 24 hour clock consisting of 1 hour each...erm hour.

And it would sound so much cooler "I'll see you at omicron o'clock"

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

¯\(°_o)/¯ I DUNNO LOL:
Snowman25:
That's easy. 24:00 is the 0:00 of the next day.
In Japan, some TV shows are aired after midnight, and TV listings may use time relative to the previous day, such as 25:30.

Are those the shows where tentacle monsters rape young school girls?

I wouldn't take Japan as a good example to follow...

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

Wait, I'm confused. When can I feed my Mogwai again?

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

There is actually such a thing as 24:00; it is defined in ISO 8601:2004 (Representation of dates and times). Per § 5.2.3, midnight may be expressed either as 00:00 (first instant of a calendar day), or 24:00 (last instant of the calendar day), e.g., 14-Feb-2014 24:00 and 15-Feb-2014 00:00 refer to the same instant. Per § 4.2.1, an hour of 24 can only refer to exactly midnight (e.g., neither 24:01 nor 26:00 nor 24:00:00.0001 would be valid time of day representations).

While there is no such international standard for 12-hour times, NIST suggests 12am and 12pm not be used because "12 a.m. and 12 p.m. are ambiguous".

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

Zemm:
But by rights both 12am and 12 pm should be midnight: twelve hours before the "meridian" (noon).

So 10 hours after midnight should actually be 2am, and an hour later it's 1am?

That'd be a good time system, I suggest we implement it immediately!

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

Clive Page:
You are quite right, both 12am and 12pm are midnight - I'd never thought of that before. It has often annoyed me that so many people seem not to have heard of the unambiguous terms noon and midnight.

Ah, but the problem is, strictly speaking time goes

11:59:59am (infinite number of intermediate times) 11:59:59.99999999am (infinite number of intermediate times) Noon (infinite number of intermediate times) 12.00:00.00000001pm (infinite number of intermediate times) 12.00:01

So actual 'Noon' is an infinitesimally short time period. During the second that your clock is displaying 12:00:00, most of the time it is 'pm', not Noon.

(BTW - Noon = 12am is just wrong! What happens then, even if you go to less accuracy, is it 12:00am, 12:01am ... 12:59am, 1:00pm? If so, then you have misunderstood am/pm. Or is it 11:59am, 12:00am, 12:01pm - which is less accurate than, and possibly even more confusing than going from 11am to 12pm)

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

Time Pedant:
Just a minor rant: There is no 12:00 AM or 12:00 PM. There's 12:00 Noon or 12:00 Midnight.
And for those who claim "it's obvious" I can easily find examples of signs where folks use 12:00 AM to mean Noon and 12:00 PM to mean midnight.

Must be American.. ie, there is no way other than the small minded way we know. Yes, there is a 12am, and a 12pm; my phone, alarm clock, pc, satellite tv, and even my watch tell me so.

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

And you can't really say that a half-hour past noon is "12:30 PM" - because then you'd be saying that it's twelve and a half hours after noon.

But of course "1:30 PM" is okay.

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

Let's count backward...

12:03 PM 12:02 PM 12:01 PM 12:00 PM 11:59 AM <== Notice that PM->AM when 12->11? 11:58 AM 11:57 AM

Now, consider the hour 11:00-11:59 AM. All minutes of the hour share the same designation: "AM". There isn't some weird off-by-one error where 59 minutes of the hour have one designation and 1 minute of the hour has a different designation. All 60 minutes of an hour always share the same designation.

From these principles, one can easily reason:

12:00 PM = Noon 12:00 AM = Midnight

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

If you want to know what (AM/PM) to put after "12:00", add one minute. Whatever is proper for "12:01" is proper for "12:00".

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

Zemm:
Time Pedant:
Just a minor rant: There is no 12:00 AM or 12:00 PM. There's 12:00 Noon or 12:00 Midnight.
And for those who claim "it's obvious" I can easily find examples of signs where folks use 12:00 AM to mean Noon and 12:00 PM to mean midnight.

They are wrong.

But by rights both 12am and 12 pm should be midnight: twelve hours before the "meridian" (noon). Hurry up and get rid of 12 hour time. Then we can have pedantic arguments over "24:00".

Does your clock look like this?

12:00am 11:00am 10:00am 9:00am 8:00am 7:00am 6:00am 5:00am 4:00am 3:00am 2:00am 1:00am Noon 1:00pm 2:00pm 3:00pm 4:00pm 5:00pm etc......

Because if not, then this comment makes absolutely no sense.

CAPTCHA: I had to say this because of the gravis of the error.

studog · 2014-02-14 Reply Admin

Domino's ran a promotion in my area a couple years ago: at 10:00p pizzas of any size became $10 to order, and thereafter the pizza price tracked the wall clock: at 11:00p they were $11 to order etc.

Hardly believing my good fortune I called up my nearest Domino's and confirmed my order of 20 pizzas for $20 at 1:00a. The staffer put me on hold to talk to her manager, and then came back and told me "That's not the way it works". I argued that the printed advertising copy in my hand said otherwise, but they wouldn't put the order through. :-(

chubertdev · 2014-02-14 Reply Admin

12:00am refers to midnight, 12:00pm refers to noon, and anyone who disagrees with or is confused by that is simply a blithering idiot.

chubertdev · 2014-02-14 Reply Admin

Also, I can only imagine the code behind the first one.

public int GetBalance() {
   try
   {
      //stuff
   }
   catch (Exception ex)
   {
      return 0;
   }
}

Don't swallow your exceptions, kids.

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

It gets even worse when you're working with clocks where the "day" does not end/begin at midnight. My last job was in broadcast media, and a "broadcast day" typically begins somewhere between 4-6 AM. So they have a third designation for which "half" of the day you're in: the wee hours of this morning would be described as, for example, "2:00 XM, February 13, 2014".

chubertdev · 2014-02-14 Reply Admin

Mason Wheeler:
It gets even worse when you're working with clocks where the "day" does not end/begin at midnight. My last job was in broadcast media, and a "broadcast day" typically begins somewhere between 4-6 AM. So they have a third designation for which "half" of the day you're in: the wee hours of this morning would be described as, for example, "2:00 XM, February 13, 2014".

"Our puzzler coming up in the third half of the day..."

2014-02-14 Reply Admin

The real WTF is 24 hour time. Freaky. As they say, "what time is 13'o clock?" "Time to get a new clock!". That, and the towel-wearing commie metric system will never happen here.

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