The Daily WTF: Curious Perversions in Information Technology

2006-07-08 Reply Admin

I see (July 8th) that instead of being launched in late May, the 'new design' - which presumably really will have its navigation links on the left this time - is now promised for June 2006.

That's another government initiative running to time then...

makomk · 2006-07-08 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
Alex Papadimoulis:
Daniel came across this next one. Now technically this is by design ... but isn't that kinda like saying: although I can't let you without the secret word, I'd be happy to tell you what the secret word is ...

[image]

What's so strange about that? Unix tells you exactly the same things.

user@host:~$ cat foo cat: foo: Permission denied user@host:~$ ls -l foo ---------- 1 user users 0 2006-07-08 08:52 foo

"You do not have permission to view..." followed by "you can make permission changes"

If I'm reading it correctly, it'd be more like:

user@host:~$ ls -l foo ls: foo: Permission denied user@host:~$ chmod 644 foo user@host:~$

i.e. you can't find out what the current permissions are, but you can change them.

2006-07-08 Reply Admin

Take a careful look at the '2'. At the bottom, it overlaps the '1' slightly, and the base is a little lower than the rest of the text.

I'd say this was photoshopped.

2006-07-08 Reply Admin

"I happen to know someone who has a pet monkey (they live on a farm), and the monkey is not amused"

Your friends live on a monkey farm?

Phil the ruler of heck · 2006-07-08 Reply Admin

Alex Papadimoulis:

[image]

This should have been a choice of [x] Ok [ ] Cancel, as Usability.gov would undoubtedly have told you...

Alex Papadimoulis:
Daniel came across this next one. Now technically this is by design ... but isn't that kinda like saying: although I can't let you without the secret word, I'd be happy to tell you what the secret word is ...
[image]

No, this is more like the other way around, isn't it? I can't tell you what the secret word is, but you can pick a new one if you like...

OpBaI · 2006-07-08 Reply Admin

One could have also written it like this:

                echo "===================================================="
                echo "Type a full screenful of random junk to unblock"
                echo "it and remember to finish with <enter>. This will"
                echo "timeout in ${timeout} seconds, but waiting for"
                echo "the timeout without typing junk may make the"
                echo "entropy source deliver predictable output."
                echo ""
                echo "Just hit <enter> for fast+insecure startup."
                echo "===================================================="

Phil the ruler of heck · 2006-07-08 Reply Admin

makomk:
Anonymous:
What's so strange about that? Unix tells you exactly the same things.
If I'm reading it correctly, it'd be more like:

user@host:~$ ls -l foo ls: foo: Permission denied user@host:~$ chmod 644 foo user@host:~$

i.e. you can't find out what the current permissions are, but you can change them.

What I can't seem to reproduce in Unix, though, is "you do not have permission to find out what the current permissions are":

$ ls -l foo
foo: Permission denied
total 8
$ ls -ld foo
d-wx--x--x 2 nobody nobody 69 Jul 8 16:57 foo
$ ls -ld .
d-wx--x--x 3 nobody root 105 Jul 8 16:57 .
$

i.e. you can always find out what the current permissions are, even if no one has permission to read anything. (This might depend on the flavour of Unix, of course -- I tried this with Solaris 10. But this behaviour seems to make some kind of sense, given that a Unix directory seems to be just a list of file names, so if you already know the name of the file you're after, reading permission on the directory is not required.)

makomk · 2006-07-08 Reply Admin

Phil the ruler of heck:
makomk:
Anonymous:
What's so strange about that? Unix tells you exactly the same things.
If I'm reading it correctly, it'd be more like:

user@host:~$ ls -l foo ls: foo: Permission denied user@host:~$ chmod 644 foo user@host:~$

i.e. you can't find out what the current permissions are, but you can change them.

What I can't seem to reproduce in Unix, though, is "you do not have permission to find out what the current permissions are":

$ ls -l foo
foo: Permission denied
total 8
$ ls -ld foo
d-wx--x--x 2 nobody nobody 69 Jul 8 16:57 foo
$ ls -ld .
d-wx--x--x 3 nobody root 105 Jul 8 16:57 .
$

i.e. you can always find out what the current permissions are, even if no one has permission to read anything. (This might depend on the flavour of Unix, of course -- I tried this with Solaris 10. But this behaviour seems to make some kind of sense, given that a Unix directory seems to be just a list of file names, so if you already know the name of the file you're after, reading permission on the directory is not required.)

As I understand it, it's impossible (at least using standard Unix permissions) - generally, if you can access the directory the file is in, you can read its permissions. (I don't think you even need read permissions on the directory, just execute...)

2006-07-08 Reply Admin

"Please bang on the keyboard like a monkey" - Excellent! :D

2006-07-08 Reply Admin

Coach 12 departing from platform 9¾ now?

2006-07-08 Reply Admin

The real WTF is "RESTART THE COMPUTER TO APPLY CHANGES".

--Tei

2006-07-08 Reply Admin

Looks like this forum doesn't like colons... there is one between "javascript" and "alert"...

2006-07-09 Reply Admin

> SunSolve Bug ID: 4102680
> ------------------------
> Problem: stress test gets an XError (BadDrawable) under 2.7 CDEVersion1.3_8
> Workaround: Don't pound on the mouse like a wild monkey (stress test).
>
> SunSolve Bug ID: 4256482
> -------------------------
> Problem: Banging on keyboard like a wild monkey during cde startup causes dtwm hang
> Workaround: Don't bang on the keyboard like a wild monkey

Juifeng · 2006-07-09 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
I guess this is due to a JavaScript bug. Everybody should know that 0.1 + 0.2 = 0.30000000000000004. It's so obvious... If you don't believe me, type javascript:alert(0.1+0.2) in your address bar, and admire the result.

I think that's a common problem with floating point numbers, not a javascript-specific bug.

2006-07-09 Reply Admin

Juifeng:
Anonymous:
I guess this is due to a JavaScript bug. Everybody should know that 0.1 + 0.2 = 0.30000000000000004. It's so obvious... If you don't believe me, type javascript:alert(0.1+0.2) in your address bar, and admire the result.

I think that's a common problem with floating point numbers, not a javascript-specific bug.

Heeee.... NO.

On most stuff you can use float numbers:
- Basic on a C64
- C with a x86 computer
- Python/Perl/Ruby/Java...
- FORTH

...theres problems, but not that ridiculous as this one. This one is soo ugly that I think javascript itself is broken over repair.
Theres a good thread about the topic on this forum.

headhunter · 2006-07-09 Reply Admin

the true WTF!!!OMG is the lady on the right hand side of this site.

2006-07-09 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
Juifeng:
Anonymous:
I guess this is due to a JavaScript bug. Everybody should know that 0.1 + 0.2 = 0.30000000000000004. It's so obvious... If you don't believe me, type javascript:alert(0.1+0.2) in your address bar, and admire the result.

I think that's a common problem with floating point numbers, not a javascript-specific bug.

Heeee.... NO.

On most stuff you can use float numbers:
- Basic on a C64
- C with a x86 computer
- Python/Perl/Ruby/Java...
- FORTH

...theres problems, but not that ridiculous as this one. This one is soo ugly that I think javascript itself is broken over repair.
Theres a good thread about the topic on this forum.

You should really try this kind of stuff out before opening your mouth.

int main(int argc, char* argv[])
{
   if (0.30000000000000004 == (.1 + .2))
      printf("looks like C sucks too!");

   return 0;
}

2006-07-10 Reply Admin

Anonymous:

You should really try this kind of stuff out before opening your mouth.

int main(int argc, char* argv[])
{
   if (0.30000000000000004 == (.1 + .2))
      printf("looks like C sucks too!");

   return 0;
}

program:

#include "stdio.h"

int main(int argc, char* argv[]) {
    float f;

   if (0.30000000000000004 == (0.1f + 0.2f))
      printf("looks like C sucks too!\n");
   else
    printf("not that bad!\n");

   f = 0.1f + 0.2f;
   printf("sum: %f\n", f);

   return 0;
}

output:

not that bad!
sum: 0.300000

ammoQ · 2006-07-10 Reply Admin

Anonymous:

output:

not that bad!
sum: 0.300000

confirmed

Phil the ruler of heck · 2006-07-10 Reply Admin

anonymous:
output:

not that bad!
sum: 0.300000

It's not that bad. Guess why? Because it's even worse. :-)

D:\Projects\DailyWtfFloat\Debug>type ..\DailyWtfFloat.cpp
// DailyWtfFloat.cpp : Defines the entry point for the console application.
//

#include "stdafx.h"
#include "stdio.h"

int _tmain(int argc, _TCHAR* argv[])
{
float f = .1f + .2f;

if (0.30000000000000004 == f)
 printf("looks like C sucks too!\n");
 else
 printf("not that bad!\n");

printf("sum: %32.30f\n", f);

return 0;
}

D:\Projects\DailyWtfFloat\Debug>.\DailyWtfFloat.exe
not that bad!
sum: 0.300000011920928960000000000000

D:\Projects\DailyWtfFloat\Debug>

Could it be that Javascript uses double's not float's?

ammoQ · 2006-07-10 Reply Admin

Phil the ruler of heck:
anonymous:
output:

not that bad!
sum: 0.300000

It's not that bad. Guess why? Because it's even worse. :-)

D:\Projects\DailyWtfFloat\Debug>type ..\DailyWtfFloat.cpp

Could it be that Javascript uses double's not float's?

Seems you are using a math-deprived operating system. Linux doesn't do that.

Phil the ruler of heck · 2006-07-10 Reply Admin

ammoQ:
Seems you are using a math-deprived operating system. Linux doesn't do that.

What do you mean? Linux stores floating-point numbers in a decimal representation, not in a binary one?

ammoQ · 2006-07-10 Reply Admin

Phil the ruler of heck:
ammoQ:
Seems you are using a math-deprived operating system. Linux doesn't do that.

What do you mean? Linux stores floating-point numbers in a decimal representation, not in a binary one?

Well, a sane operating system (or rather: a sane lib) does not output more decimal places than can realistically be precise.

Phil the ruler of heck · 2006-07-10 Reply Admin

ammoQ:
Well, a sane operating system (or rather: a sane lib) does not output more decimal places than can realistically be precise.

Well, it was me who told that printf() function to output 30 digits after the decimal point, instead of the default six decimal digits. Did you just call me a lib?

ammoQ · 2006-07-10 Reply Admin

Phil the ruler of heck:
ammoQ:
Well, a sane operating system (or rather: a sane lib) does not output more decimal places than can realistically be precise.

Well, it was me who told that printf() function to output 30 digits after the decimal point, instead of the default six decimal digits. Did you just call me a lib?

Sorry, I haven't noticed that. There is nothing wrong with your operating system and lib, the problem is between chair an monitor.

2006-07-10 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
"I happen to know someone who has a pet monkey (they live on a farm), and the monkey is not amused"

Your friends live on a monkey farm?

It's not a monkey farm - they live on a farm and just happen to have a monkey (you haven't lived until you've tried to eat dinner with a monkey running around the room throwing .... stuff

2006-07-10 Reply Admin

In Python:

>>> if 0.30000000000000004 == 0.1 + 0.2: ... print "test" ... test

"Talk about versatile, J.B. Langston was thrilled to see that Remedy's call tracking system is able to handle Xanthemedies' complaint about broken amphorae on his olive shipment from 352 BC ..."

Brilliant :D

2006-07-10 Reply Admin

damn forum, that was supposed to be:

>>> if 0.30000000000000004 == 0.1 + 0.2:
... print "test"
...
test

Phil the ruler of heck · 2006-07-10 Reply Admin

ammoQ:
Phil the ruler of heck:
D:\Projects\DailyWtfFloat\Debug>.\DailyWtfFloat.exe
not that bad!
sum: 0.300000011920928960000000000000

Seems you are using a math-deprived operating system. Linux doesn't do that.

Somehow I wasn't quite sure you were being serious... Anyway, here's the thing on Linux:

ruleheck@lt***-vmlinux-oraagent:~/DailyWtfFloat> cat DailyWtfFloat.c++
// DailyWtfFloat.cpp : Defines the entry point for the console application.
//

#include "stdafx.h"
#include "stdio.h"

#ifndef _MSC_VER
typedef char _TCHAR;
#endif // #ifndef _MSC_VER

#ifndef _MSC_VER
inline
#endif // #ifndef _MSC_VER
int _tmain(int argc, _TCHAR* argv[])
{
float f = .1f + .2f;

if (0.30000000000000004 == f)
 printf("looks like C sucks too!\n");
 else
 printf("not that bad!\n");

printf("sum: %32.30f\n", f);

return 0;
}

#ifndef _MSC_VER
int main(int argc, char* argv[])
{
return(_tmain(argc, argv));
}
#endif // #ifndef _MSC_VER
ruleheck@lt***-vmlinux-oraagent:~/DailyWtfFloat> ./DailyWtfFloat
not that bad!
sum: 0.300000011920928955078125000000
ruleheck@lt***-vmlinux-oraagent:~/DailyWtfFloat> uname -a
Linux lt***-vmlinux-oraagent 2.6.4-52-default #1 Wed Apr 7 02:08:30 UTC 2004 i686 i686 i386 GNU/Linux
ruleheck@lt***-vmlinux-oraagent:~/DailyWtfFloat>

You may recall that Windows rounded that to 0.30000001192092896. So if a sane operating system doesn't output too many decimal places, then Linux is even more insane than Windows. :-)

2006-07-10 Reply Admin

Phil the ruler of heck:

ammoQ:
Well, a sane operating system (or rather: a sane lib) does not output more decimal places than can realistically be precise.

Well, it was me who told that printf() function to output 30 digits after the decimal point, instead of the default six decimal digits. Did you just call me a lib?

Perhaps you folks should try Java's BigDecimal object.

2006-07-10 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
Phil the ruler of heck:

ammoQ:
Well, a sane operating system (or rather: a sane lib) does not output more decimal places than can realistically be precise.

Well, it was me who told that printf() function to output 30 digits after the decimal point, instead of the default six decimal digits. Did you just call me a lib?

Perhaps you folks should try Java's BigDecimal object.

Damn - didn't take:

import java.math.*;
import java.io.*;
class floattest {
   public static void main(String []argv) {
      BigDecimal a = new BigDecimal("0.1");
      BigDecimal b = new BigDecimal("0.2");
      BigDecimal c = a.add(b);
      System.out.println(a);
      System.out.println(b);
      System.out.println(c);
      System.exit(0);
   }
}
output:
0.1
0.2
0.3

ammoQ · 2006-07-10 Reply Admin

Phil the ruler of heck:
You may recall that Windows rounded that to 0.30000001192092896. So if a sane operating system doesn't output too many decimal places, then Linux is even more insane than Windows. :-)

Well, Linux is obviously an even more obedient idiot than Windows ;-)

2006-07-10 Reply Admin

re: usability.gov

sorry, but i just have to say it - the Real WTF [tm] is the code...

GoatCheez · 2006-07-10 Reply Admin

ammoQ:
Phil the ruler of heck:
You may recall that Windows rounded that to 0.30000001192092896. So if a sane operating system doesn't output too many decimal places, then Linux is even more insane than Windows. :-)

Well, Linux is obviously an even more obedient idiot than Windows ;-)

Different processor architectures will produce different results with this program. Also, a different compiler might as well, as well as a debug vs release compile (on windows). On gcc, different O settings might make this produce different code as well. It all depends on the Floating Point Unit in the processor, as well as what call is made to add the numbers together. Floating point addition can be done many different ways (SSE, 3dNow, or just normal FPU, etc...).

GoatCheez · 2006-07-10 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
Sunday Ironfoot:
Alex Papadimoulis:

As if the London train system wasn't twisted enough, Tom Worleyt found himself in the imaginary carriage floating above the tracks behind the last carriage ...

[image]

Would be funnier if it said "Coach number NaN of Exception: Cannot divide by zero"

Let's try again: Take a careful look at the '2'. At the bottom, it overlaps the '1' slightly, and the base is a little lower than the rest of the text.

I'd say this was photoshopped.

I disagree. You can see the reflection of the 2. You can also notice how the other 1 in 11 is scrunched up against the first 1 in 11, just as the 2 is in 12. The base really doesn't look much lower either.

2006-07-10 Reply Admin

And it's scrolling too. So it could be that it is moving

2006-07-10 Reply Admin

Heh, just like Ordo in Cryptonomicon.

2006-07-10 Reply Admin

ammoQ:
Phil the ruler of heck:
You may recall that Windows rounded that to 0.30000001192092896. So if a sane operating system doesn't output too many decimal places, then Linux is even more insane than Windows. :-)

Well, Linux is obviously an even more obedient idiot than Windows ;-)

This brings me to one of my favorite Dr Who quotes:

"The trouble with computers is they're sophisticated idiots. They do exactly what you tell them at amazing speed."

I always start with this quote when teaching a newbie to use a computer. It seems to make it a lot easier on them, partly by insulting the computer (and thus boosting morale) and partly by explaining just what the fundamental problem is in learning to use a computer.

2006-07-10 Reply Admin

Indeed. In los angeles everyone uses the car to go to the bathroom.

but even so, I´d rather be there than being in Rio

2006-07-10 Reply Admin

The really unnerving thing is that Microsoft has found a way to split the byte, and nobody noticed.

gwenhwyfaer · 2006-07-10 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
Indeed. In los angeles everyone uses the car to go to the bathroom.

* makes mental note to avoid using LA taxis without protective clothing *

2006-07-10 Reply Admin

Having used Remedy at 2 companies; the guess "someone taking trouble to build in functionality that cannot serve any useful purpose." sounds like a LOT of what is built in....LOL!

2006-07-10 Reply Admin

haha, noice.

2006-07-10 Reply Admin

Uh, that would be if you WERE good friends with a monkey.

2006-07-10 Reply Admin

WTF: um...yeah..look, we are really sorry, we had no idea you guys were still around...

Mad Monkey: Next time do a little reasearch, huh?

Some Idiot · 2006-07-10 Reply Admin

ammoQ:
Phil the ruler of heck:

anonymous:
output:

not that bad!
sum: 0.300000

It's not that bad. Guess why? Because it's even worse. :-)

D:\Projects\DailyWtfFloat\Debug>type ..\DailyWtfFloat.cpp

Could it be that Javascript uses double's not float's?

Seems you are using a math-deprived operating system. Linux doesn't do that.

Javascript (at least the rhino of mozilla/firefox fame) uses doubles, not floats. CMIIW, but I think that may even be standard across all interpreters - nice thinking Phil.

Even the mathematically superior Linux will get these types of calculations wrong on the same processor.

The real WTF is yet another "The real WTF is ..." type comment about the real WTF that is people who are pretending to know what they're talking about saying "WTF" about floating point inaccuracies.

0.1f + 0.2f = 0.30000000000(bang-on-the-numpad-like-a-monkey)f

2006-07-10 Reply Admin

Or, is the real WTF the type of person who claims that the real WTF is the people who are pretending to know what they're talking about saying "WTF" about floating point inaccuracies, therefore making it sound like they are not the real WTF.

2006-07-10 Reply Admin

Not that anyone will read all the way down to this message, but many many many years ago, while programming in Fortran on a Data General MV platform, I caused a simple runtime error that returned an error number.

The error number was 110, so not knowing if it was hex or decimal, I ran the error reporting program using both bases to see what I might have done. I don't exactly recall what the (correct) base 10 code was, but the result of looking up the number as hex resulted in this message:

"Universal system. You can't do that."

At that moment I realized that I was infringing on the Greater Powers, so I turned off the lights and crept home to meditate upon my sins.......

2006-07-10 Reply Admin

Spoken like a true drug dealer.

2006-07-11 Reply Admin

In my opinion, this is the best IE error message. It usually occurs when you attempt to access JavaScript objects in a window that has been closed.

"The callee (server [not server application]) is not available and disappeared; all connections are invalid. The call did not execute."

I mean, I'm a senior IT professional, and I can barely decipher what this means. What's a poor user supposed to make of this?

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