The Daily WTF: Curious Perversions in Information Technology

frits · 2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Kuba:
frits:
The Article:
From a safety perspective, the protruding metal clips establish a ground connection before the pins can even enter the socket.
American-style three prong sockets make the ground connection first by use of one longer pin, and the two pronged variety aren't grounded so it doesn't matter.
Of course that's wrong. One of the two prongs is a grounded conductor, of course (the Neutral).

Grounding at the service panel is not done for safety.

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Sockatume:
I think it's a close run thing between Schuko and the hilariously overengineered UK mains plug. On one hand, the UK plug makes it nigh-impossible to unplug something by tugging on the cable, so people get conditioned to actually grip the plug and not the wire. On the other hand, the Schuko plug disappears into the wall, so well-designed USB adaptors, travel adaptors etc. sit flush with the surface.

I'm not going to defend our (USA) system, other than to say Thomas Edison himself designed it and, like Alexander Bell's telephone system, it always seems too expensive to change the existing infrastructure for a marginal improvement. But I'm curious; if the adapters sit flush with the surface, how do you get them out when you're finished using them?

Captcha: jugis. Please don't jugis in North America just because we're set in our ways.

frits · 2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Nederlander:
frits:
Hey, Rest of the World: If you only used 120 VAC, you wouldn't have to worry so much about safety.

Half the voltage means double the current to deliver the same amount of power. And we all know that current kills.

If only there were some rule (or even better a law) that showed the relationship between voltage, current and skin resistance...

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Daverino:
TRWTF is not noticing the screws and burned up tape the FIRST time the power strip was checked.

That's what I thought, too.

There's always a RWTF, if you look for it.

frits · 2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Some damn Yank:
Sockatume:
I think it's a close run thing between Schuko and the hilariously overengineered UK mains plug. On one hand, the UK plug makes it nigh-impossible to unplug something by tugging on the cable, so people get conditioned to actually grip the plug and not the wire. On the other hand, the Schuko plug disappears into the wall, so well-designed USB adaptors, travel adaptors etc. sit flush with the surface.
I'm not going to defend our (USA) system, other than to say Thomas Edison himself designed it and, like Alexander Bell's telephone system, it always seems too expensive to change the existing infrastructure for a marginal improvement. But I'm curious; if the adapters sit flush with the surface, how do you get them out when you're finished using them?
Captcha: jugis. Please don't jugis in North America just because we're set in our ways.

Good point you bring up there. We invented electricity so piss off with your Euro-rules.

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Shocking:
Yes. Then you get dimwits who, in the interests of child safety, invent devices to defeat the safety measures... http://www.fatallyflawed.org.uk/

Please show a little sensitivity. I had a son who was a dimwit and let me assure you it was shocking.

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Zog:
not that I've ever had to rewrite an Italian hotel socket to accept a plug that is standard in the rest of the EU....cough!

That's the difference between North America and Europe. In NA we figure that if we changed the socket standard then we'd have to re-wire every building and appliance on the continent. While in Europe, they feel free to change standards all the time, they just leave the old ones in place. Forever. How many "standard" sockets do you have, anyway?

Doesn't matter, really. I find that with a multi-tool, a coat hanger, and duct tape (of course) I can adapt any plug to any socket.

operagost · 2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Kuba:
frits:
The Article:
From a safety perspective, the protruding metal clips establish a ground connection before the pins can even enter the socket.
American-style three prong sockets make the ground connection first by use of one longer pin, and the two pronged variety aren't grounded so it doesn't matter.
Of course that's wrong. One of the two prongs is a grounded conductor, of course (the Neutral). I suggest some lecture of National Electrical Code. It's freely available -- in the U.S., laws must be freely available (as repeatedly upheld by courts IIRC), and the nice folks at bulk resource have collected the codes for us. You can get last 4 NEC editions or so from there.

It bothers me that you're familiar with the NEC, but not the basics of electrical systems. The neutral or common conductor carries current and is NOT a ground. If it was, we wouldn't need a ground conductor. In a properly functioning circuit, the neutral does not present a risk of shock, but a reversal of polarity could cause it to carry a charge so it must always be treated as potentially hazardous. More importantly, calling the common the "ground" results in confused DIYers doing things like "upgrading" old two-conductor systems by typing the ground pin to the common.

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

hartmut:
The real great thing about Schuko is the circle/square design ... you only need one kind of pattress for power outlets, light switches, network outlets, phone outlets, antenna outlets ... you can easily exchange devices later, reusing the same pattresses, etc. and can easily align outlet slots horizontally or vertically. You can even change the orientation of single outlets or switches from vertical to horizontal or vice versa within a minute if the need arises ... or you can even put in a full featured small PC if you have to ;) http://www.mahner.org/posts/computer-aus-der-dose/

Same with the UK ones too - single gang pattress's are the same for all types, although there generally isn't much requirement to change a light switch to a mains socket here... (although that does probably explain the positioning of the plug sockets in the hotel I stayed in in the Schuko using Prague...).

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

You can buy such covers in every DIY superstore or you can buy slots with them pre-installed. There are also variants which don't use some sort of cover but integrate the child protection stuff.

IIRC the CEE 7/5 or CEE 7/7 plugs used in France didn't enforce such protection either, it's just, that many slots come equipped with it (but I might be wrong there).

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Mr X:
But at 120VAC, it takes forever to get there.

Not really. Ours takes less than two minutes.

Mr X:
And don't try to tell an Englishman how to make proper tea.

Wouldn't think of it!

Mr X:
Or beer.

I thought the Irish made the beer, and the English drank it.

Mr X:
Or how to play cricket.

I think the Indians may disagree. Nagesh?

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Iceman:
Actually most new european plug sockets have child-resistant shutters. In this case it would have prevented the screw from falling in.

It sure took me a long time and lots of experiment as a child to figure out how the shutters work. Turns out you need to insert the knitting pins to both holes at the same time to get them in.

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Mr X:
But at 120VAC, it takes forever to get there. And don't try to tell an Englishman how to make proper tea. Or beer. Or how to play cricket.

I agree with the first two. But someone does indeed need to tell the England squad how to play cricket.

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Geoff:
Also unless you are aggressively stupid and or careless NEMA1-15 and NEMA5-15s are really not that dangerous.

Given those criteria I'm surprised that American emergency rooms aren't constantly jammed to capacity with smoldering electrocution victims. Most people *are* aggressively stupid and careless, you read TDWTF, you should know that by now! ;-)

Geoff:
how many of them we use, and the density of them modern applications often require... ...bulky, expensive looking

A UK 6-socket strip doesn't take up a whole lot more room than a US 6-socket one does (I have both for various reasons) and the US ones have to have special widely spaced sockets to use all the wall-warts modern electronics come with, or use every other socket on a strip (so I need 2 strips chained together to achieve what I can with one UK-spec strip), losing any density advantage gained from the teeny-weeny little plugs. The UK strips can almost always fit adjacent wall-warts without any sockets being blocked.

Also because of the 110 volt supply, the US strip requires a heavier, less flexible gauge of cabling than it's 220 volt counterpart. That's a real PITA to deal with compared with finding a few extra square inches for each plug.

The 2-pin NEMA plugs are easier to pack in a laptop bag though compared to the giant UK or Schuko plugs. But that's about the only advantage they have.

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Clearly you've never made beer using a modified kettle element then, where boiling to death the wort is the whole aim (but then propane is so much more fun :)

inhibeo: I am not allowed to drink - I am currently inhibeo...

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Steve:
Shall be sticking with BS1363, not that I have much choice. 13 Amp at 230v. And a fuse in every appliance. Its the future ;)

We (USA) have ground fault interrupters in every hair drier plug. THATS the future! (we also have GFI sockets near every sink, kitchen and bath, so we're double-covered)

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

frits:
Good point you bring up there. We invented electricity so piss off with your Euro-rules.

I didn't know that Galvani and Faraday were American... :-)

Matt Westwood · 2011-10-20 Reply Admin

frits:
Some damn Yank:
Sockatume:
I think it's a close run thing between Schuko and the hilariously overengineered UK mains plug. On one hand, the UK plug makes it nigh-impossible to unplug something by tugging on the cable, so people get conditioned to actually grip the plug and not the wire. On the other hand, the Schuko plug disappears into the wall, so well-designed USB adaptors, travel adaptors etc. sit flush with the surface.
I'm not going to defend our (USA) system, other than to say Thomas Edison himself designed it and, like Alexander Bell's telephone system, it always seems too expensive to change the existing infrastructure for a marginal improvement. But I'm curious; if the adapters sit flush with the surface, how do you get them out when you're finished using them?
Captcha: jugis. Please don't jugis in North America just because we're set in our ways.
Good point you bring up there. We invented electricity so piss off with your Euro-rules.

Oh fuck off did you. It was Faraday, COBOL-breath.

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Bob:
Shocking:
Yes. Then you get dimwits who, in the interests of child safety, invent devices to defeat the safety measures... http://www.fatallyflawed.org.uk/

Please show a little sensitivity. I had a son who was a dimwit and let me assure you it was shocking.

Fuck off, Bob.

frits · 2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Matt Westwood:
frits:
Some damn Yank:
Sockatume:
I think it's a close run thing between Schuko and the hilariously overengineered UK mains plug. On one hand, the UK plug makes it nigh-impossible to unplug something by tugging on the cable, so people get conditioned to actually grip the plug and not the wire. On the other hand, the Schuko plug disappears into the wall, so well-designed USB adaptors, travel adaptors etc. sit flush with the surface.
I'm not going to defend our (USA) system, other than to say Thomas Edison himself designed it and, like Alexander Bell's telephone system, it always seems too expensive to change the existing infrastructure for a marginal improvement. But I'm curious; if the adapters sit flush with the surface, how do you get them out when you're finished using them?
Captcha: jugis. Please don't jugis in North America just because we're set in our ways.
Good point you bring up there. We invented electricity so piss off with your Euro-rules.

Oh fuck off did you. It was Faraday, COBOL-breath.

What, have you never heard of Benjamin Franklin?

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Some damn Yank:
I'm not going to defend our (USA) system, other than to say Thomas Edison himself designed it

Whoa, we've been using DC current distribution all this time and nobody told me? ;-)

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

frits:
Hey, Rest of the World: If you only used 120 VAC, you wouldn't have to worry so much about safety.

hey america, if you used only 230 VAC you would have +5% power efficiency on all your PSU's ...

Besides our power plugs are far safer than the most widespread US standard : those ridiculous two flat pin thingies. (that thing keeps on unplugging and it doesn't even have ground ...)

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Some damn Yank:
Mr X:
But at 120VAC, it takes forever to get there.
Not really. Ours takes less than two minutes.
Mr X:
And don't try to tell an Englishman how to make proper tea.
Wouldn't think of it!
Mr X:
Or beer.
I thought the Irish made the beer, and the English drank it.
Mr X:
Or how to play cricket.
I think the Indians may disagree. Nagesh?

We are in huge det to British colonisation efort. They bring much: knowlege of English, criket, railroading, parlimentry system, elektrisity, toilet. Since departur, we have not being able to emprove in most areas.

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Kuba:
in the U.S., laws must be freely available (as repeatedly upheld by courts IIRC), and the nice folks at bulk resource have collected the codes for us. You can get last 4 NEC editions or so from there.

I wish! The freely available law says "follow the code." The code will cost you plenty and not all are available at bulk.resource (I fixed your link, BTW). When told we needed a Surface Water Management Plan for driveway runoff, I thought "that's easy - the water will run off onto my property". They told me I could not file the paperwork myself, that I'd have to hire an engineer. I told them I AM and engineer and they said, "OK, that will be $1000 for the code you'll have to follow in drawing up your SWMP". I decided to lie about how long our driveway really is, so we fell below the minimum area that requires a SWMP.

Captcha: secundum. That's the secundum time I've had secundum as a captcha!

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Paul:
Some damn Yank:
I'm not going to defend our (USA) system, other than to say Thomas Edison himself designed it

Whoa, we've been using direct DC current distribution all this time and nobody told me? ;-)

FTFY

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

frits:
Grounding at the service panel is not done for safety.

Really? Then why is it done? This has got to be the most ill-informed statement you've made, frits.

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Bob:
Shocking:
Yes. Then you get dimwits who, in the interests of child safety, invent devices to defeat the safety measures... http://www.fatallyflawed.org.uk/

Please show a little sensitivity. I had a son who was a dimwit and let me assure you it was shocking.

If you allowed those socket covers in your house then you're the dimwit, not your son.

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Some damn Yank:
Mr X:
But at 120VAC, it takes forever to get there.
Not really. Ours takes less than two minutes.

Ah, but we have shorter ad breaks in TV too, and nearly two minutes is forever! Ours does enough for 2 mugs in about 40 seconds.

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Mr X:
Some damn Yank:
Mr X:
But at 120VAC, it takes forever to get there.
Not really. Ours takes less than two minutes.

Ah, but we have shorter ad breaks in TV too, and nearly two minutes is forever! Ours does enough for 2 mugs in about 40 seconds.

I am using microwave for this purpose.

holli · 2011-10-20 Reply Admin

[image]

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

frits:
Some damn Yank:
I'm not going to defend our (USA) system, other than to say Thomas Edison himself designed it and, like Alexander Bell's telephone system, it always seems too expensive to change the existing infrastructure for a marginal improvement.
Good point you bring up there. We invented electricity so piss off with your Euro-rules.

Um, Edison didn't discover electricity, and he certainly didn't invent it. Some Euro-types discovered it. Do the names Volta, Ampère, Ohm, and Watt sound familiar? All Europeans. The USA's primary contribution was Benjamin Franklin's discovery that lightning is electricity. That and his getting polarity backwards for all of humanity.

I think Zeus or Thor or someone actually invented it. (wait, was Thor thunder? I never was good at keeping the gods straight)

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Nagesh:
Mr X:
Some damn Yank:
Mr X:
But at 120VAC, it takes forever to get there.
Not really. Ours takes less than two minutes.

Ah, but we have shorter ad breaks in TV too, and nearly two minutes is forever! Ours does enough for 2 mugs in about 40 seconds.
I am using microwave for this purpose.

Liar! Who are you thinking you are, Mukesh Ambani or something? Now we know u r just fakr.

frits · 2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Some damn Yank:
frits:
Grounding at the service panel is not done for safety.
Really? Then why is it done? This has got to be the most ill-informed statement you've made, frits.

I'll ammend my statement to say:

Without the use of GFI, grounding the neutral at the service panel (source side) does not neccessarily protect the safety of equipment or personnel at the outlet.

Are you happy now, you pedantic dickweed? Neutral is a current carrying conductor and should not be used for safety ground.

Tim G · 2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Zog:
But seriously, if you think this is bad you haven't seen half the things that have been done with electric sockets - not that I've ever had to rewrite an Italian hotel socket to accept a plug that is standard in the rest of the EU....cough!

You can rewrite an Italian electrical socket? Wow, Europe is years ahead of the US in technology!

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not but, half the voltage means much less current flows for a given resistance, so you get LESS current through a human who has mistakenly make his or her self part of the circuit, not more.

So as far electric shock hazard 120v is safer. Now it also means many things run much hotter so from a fire risk it might be more dangerous.

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Mr X:
British plugs are regarded as both the safest and the largest plugs around. This would be impossible in a british socket, because the live/neutral holes aren't exposed until the earth pin is inserted.

Or a screwdriver, or a pair of scissors, allowing a 2-pin European style plug to be inserted.

Don't try this at home, as they say on TV.

frits · 2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Some damn Yank:
frits:
Some damn Yank:
I'm not going to defend our (USA) system, other than to say Thomas Edison himself designed it and, like Alexander Bell's telephone system, it always seems too expensive to change the existing infrastructure for a marginal improvement.
Good point you bring up there. We invented electricity so piss off with your Euro-rules.
Um, Edison didn't discover electricity, and he certainly didn't invent it. Some Euro-types discovered it. Do the names Volta, Ampère, Ohm, and Watt sound familiar? All Europeans. The USA's primary contribution was Benjamin Franklin's discovery that lightning is electricity. That and his getting polarity backwards for all of humanity.
I think Zeus or Thor or someone actually invented it. (wait, was Thor thunder? I never was good at keeping the gods straight)

Hey it's like you almost caught the joke except you didn't.

BTW- Watt? Really? Do you want to stick with that one as a discoverer of electricity?

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Paul:
Geoff:
Also unless you are aggressively stupid and or careless NEMA1-15 and NEMA5-15s are really not that dangerous.
Given those criteria I'm surprised that American emergency rooms aren't constantly jammed to capacity with smoldering electrocution victims. Most people *are* aggressively stupid and careless, you read TDWTF, you should know that by now! ;-)

As a child I sometimes (accidentally - I made other, deliberate efforts, too :-) touched my fingers to the prongs while inserting a plug. The shock was alarming, and I knew I never wanted to do that again, but it didn't send me to the hospital.

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Right the reasons for a separate ground are to ensure that it is NEVER accidentally confused with hot. Its also to reduce the risk that if the common is broken the path to ground will be some undesirable one.

If you are installing a modern appliance some place where there is no ground rail. You do indeed tie, common to the ground pin after, checking verifying common really really is common and not hot. At least that is what the inspector in my town said to do. Rules might very other places.

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

[quote user="Mr X"]American plugs don't need to be as safe as European ones, they only have carry half the juice.

[quote user="frits"]Hey, Rest of the World: If you only used 120 VAC, you wouldn't have to worry so much about safety.[/quote]

It occurs to me that UK sockets are rated to supply 13 amps, Schuko is 16 amps and the most common NEMA outlet is 15 amps.

Using yourself to complete a circuit across any of them for anything more than a fraction of a second is going to suck REALLY hard, so I'd prefer the sockets which call for some effort and ingenuity to successfully do that.

It also occurs to me that the typical accidental connection across a half-unplugged 2-prong NEMA plug isn't going to last anything like that long. Still gonna suck though.

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Mr X:
Some damn Yank:
Mr X:
But at 120VAC, it takes forever to get there.
Not really. Ours takes less than two minutes.
Ah, but we have shorter ad breaks in TV too, and nearly two minutes is forever! Ours does enough for 2 mugs in about 40 seconds.

40 seconds! It takes that long to grind the coffee! Excuse me, fill the infuser. Then there's getting down the mugs, getting out the spoons, etc. By then your water's cold, and mine is just to a proper boil.

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

holli:
[image]

This must be that "internet over the power lines" thing the utilities were pushing about 10 years ago.

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Hang on a second

(OK, I know this message will sound rude - but with screws and holes, that's what you get...)

If a screw went in a socket hole, then all you end up with is a live screw. The fuse won't blow.

Either:

the screw needs to be U shaped and go into both holes, or
there has to be three screws, one going into each hole, and one which coincidentally connects them, or
there has to be two screws, one goes into the live (not neutral - assuming the building is well earthed) hole, and the other coincidentally connects that screw to the earth strip

It's not really that likely to happen by accident.

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

frits:
Some damn Yank:
frits:
Grounding at the service panel is not done for safety.
Really? Then why is it done? This has got to be the most ill-informed statement you've made, frits.
I'll ammend my statement to say:
Without the use of GFI, grounding the neutral at the service panel (source side) does not neccessarily protect the safety of equipment or personnel at the outlet.

Are you happy now, you pedantic dickweed? Neutral is a current carrying conductor and should not be used for safety ground.

Yes, thank you, the pedantic dickweed is happy.

Twit.

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Some damn Yank:
Paul:
Geoff:
Also unless you are aggressively stupid and or careless NEMA1-15 and NEMA5-15s are really not that dangerous.
Given those criteria I'm surprised that American emergency rooms aren't constantly jammed to capacity with smoldering electrocution victims. Most people *are* aggressively stupid and careless, you read TDWTF, you should know that by now! ;-)
As a child I sometimes (accidentally - I made other, deliberate efforts, too :-) touched my fingers to the prongs while inserting a plug. The shock was alarming, and I knew I never wanted to do that again, but it didn't send me to the hospital.

Yeah, I thought about it a bit more and realized along the way that while the NEMA plugs (especially those two pronged tiny plugs) make it quite easy to give yourself a quick jolt by accident, it's going to be of the "ouch, that hurt" variety, not the one where next of kin have to be informed.

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

frits:
BTW- Watt? Really? Do you want to stick with that one as a discoverer of electricity?

My bad. But in my defense, watts are not a unit of steam, now are they? (OK, OK, they're units of power - but most commonly associated with electrical power)

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Interesting thing about the ongoing 11ßVAC debate here:

Germany was also running on 110VAC until 1987. In 1987.

Also take on Security what makes the Schuko imho superior to some other designs is: It has two instead of one ground connection!

frits · 2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Some damn Yank:
frits:
BTW- Watt? Really? Do you want to stick with that one as a discoverer of electricity?
My bad. But in my defense, watts are not a unit of steam, now are they? (OK, OK, they're units of power - but most commonly associated with electrical power)

That's quite a stretch. So you're just going to stick to your guns, you pompous ass? At least when I'm wrong it's either on purpose for comedy or if not I'll readily admit it. I would be a little less quick to call people twits if I were you.

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Nederlander:
frits:
Hey, Rest of the World: If you only used 120 VAC, you wouldn't have to worry so much about safety.

Half the voltage means double the current to deliver the same amount of power. And we all know that current kills.

Wrong... A car battery has hundreds of amperes - touch it's posts and let me know...

It's the high voltage PLUS a certain number of MILIAMPS... BUT, the lower the voltage, the better chance you have to survive. I work a lot with electricity and 120V is more or less of a tingle compared to 220-240 where you get a terrible shock.

Also, all American homes actually have 240V as well for big appliances and power hogs like an electric stove or clothes dryer. The 120V conversion only comes from the pole where the voltage is stepped down. It could just easily be stepped down to just 220-240 but honestly I like the way the system is. 120V for the daily small stuff and 240V for the power hogs.

2011-10-20 Reply Admin

Germany was also running on 110VAC until 1987. In 1987.

No. It was 220VAC until 1987!

Schuko Shucks

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