• Some damn Yank (unregistered) in reply to frits
    frits:
    Some damn Yank:
    frits:
    BTW- Watt? Really? Do you want to stick with that one as a discoverer of electricity?
    My bad. But in my defense, watts are not a unit of steam, now are they? (OK, OK, they're units of power - but most commonly associated with electrical power)
    That's quite a stretch. So you're just going to stick to your guns, you pompous ass? At least when I'm wrong it's either on purpose for comedy or if not I'll readily admit it. I would be a little less quick to call people twits if I were you.
    The pompous ass apologizes for not being clear. I said "My bad." That wasn't enough? I don't know how else I could admit I was wrong, other than to say "I was wrong." There, I said it - happy now? Sheesh, take a chill pill.
  • P (unregistered) in reply to Paul
    Paul:
    Mr X:
    British plugs are regarded as both the safest and the largest plugs around. This would be impossible in a british socket, because the live/neutral holes aren't exposed until the earth pin is inserted.

    Or a screwdriver, or a pair of scissors, allowing a 2-pin European style plug to be inserted.

    Don't try this at home, as they say on TV.

  • (cs) in reply to Some damn Yank
    Some damn Yank:
    frits:
    Some damn Yank:
    frits:
    BTW- Watt? Really? Do you want to stick with that one as a discoverer of electricity?
    My bad. But in my defense, watts are not a unit of steam, now are they? (OK, OK, they're units of power - but most commonly associated with electrical power)
    That's quite a stretch. So you're just going to stick to your guns, you pompous ass? At least when I'm wrong it's either on purpose for comedy or if not I'll readily admit it. I would be a little less quick to call people twits if I were you.
    The pompous ass apologizes for not being clear. I said "My bad." That wasn't enough? I don't know how else I could admit I was wrong, other than to say "I was wrong." There, I said it - happy now? Sheesh, take a chill pill.
    I'm mellow. I enjoy arguing. I'm just putting the screws to you because you like to call people "ill-informed" and "twit" whilst demonstrating these exact traits.
  • greenlight (unregistered) in reply to Geoff
    Also unless you are aggressively stupid and or careless NEMA1-15 and NEMA5-15s are really not that dangerous.
    Everyone I know personally who grew up in the U.S. has chocked themselves at one point on those things. We're all really lucky the voltage is so low. With Schuko plugs it's physically impossible to shock yourself plugging it in.
  • hi (unregistered) in reply to greenlight
    greenlight:
    Everyone I know personally who grew up in the U.S. has chocked themselves at one point on those things.
    Kinky.
  • 'Murruhkan (unregistered) in reply to Some damn Yank
    Some damn Yank:
    Steve:
    Shall be sticking with BS1363, not that I have much choice. 13 Amp at 230v. And a fuse in every appliance. Its the future ;)
    We (USA) have ground fault interrupters in every hair drier plug. THATS the future! (we also have GFI sockets near every sink, kitchen and bath, so we're double-covered)

    This was something I was surprised I did not see in the UK and Ireland. In the bathrooms, they only have a plug for "razors only" that's attached to the light above the mirror. Super-annoying when you need to plug in your phone and there are only two plugs available in your room. A GFI-type plug that shut off before delivering the current that could kill someone would vastly improve the European electrical system.

  • Bananas (unregistered) in reply to frits
    frits:
    Nederlander:
    frits:
    Hey, Rest of the World: If you only used 120 VAC, you wouldn't have to worry so much about safety.

    Half the voltage means double the current to deliver the same amount of power. And we all know that current kills.

    If only there were some rule (or even better a law) that showed the relationship between voltage, current and skin resistance...
    Years ago I was gawking at the innards of some of the cabinets comprising a large Honeywell mainframe computer, and noticed that all the copper power buss bars running vertically through the racks had yellow warning stickers on them. After wondering aloud about them, an older and wiser engineer reminded me that although the power supplies were only 5V, they could deliver hundreds of amps. If you cut your finger on one of those buss bars, game over.

  • undefined (unregistered) in reply to Mr X
    Mr X:
    British plugs are regarded as both the safest and the largest plugs around. This would be impossible in a british socket, because the live/neutral holes aren't exposed until the earth pin is inserted.

    You need to see waterproof version of Schuko.

  • (cs) in reply to Bananas
    Bananas:
    If you cut your finger on one of those buss bars, game over.
    Not really. You'd have to complete the circuit with another cut body part. Your story doesn't really apply to what the OP was saying anyway. Not to mention the fact that it only takes fractions of an amp inside the body to cause fatality, so 1, 10, or 100 amps is all overkill in your scenario.
  • Buddy (unregistered) in reply to John Doe
    John Doe:
    ... Also, all American homes actually have 240V as well for big appliances and power hogs like an electric stove or clothes dryer. The 120V conversion only comes from the pole where the voltage is stepped down. It could just easily be stepped down to just 220-240 but honestly I like the way the system is. 120V for the daily small stuff and 240V for the power hogs.

    I like it too. 240 V is generated as 2 X 120 V, with one hot lead out of phase relative to the other to double the voltage.

  • Alister (unregistered) in reply to Web dude

    Totally agree - the live pins are shuttered and you can't get at them till you insert the earth pin. Due to earth pin opening the gate earth bonding is always available even on items that don't need it (they have to use a dummy pin)

    Each plug is fused so if there is an internal fault it just takes out that appliance. Most sockets are switched - you have a switch on the wall for each socket; dangerous appliance? switch it off at wall!

  • Nagesh (unregistered) in reply to 'Murruhkan
    'Murruhkan:
    Some damn Yank:
    Steve:
    Shall be sticking with BS1363, not that I have much choice. 13 Amp at 230v. And a fuse in every appliance. Its the future ;)
    We (USA) have ground fault interrupters in every hair drier plug. THATS the future! (we also have GFI sockets near every sink, kitchen and bath, so we're double-covered)

    This was something I was surprised I did not see in the UK and Ireland. In the bathrooms, they only have a plug for "razors only" that's attached to the light above the mirror. Super-annoying when you need to plug in your phone and there are only two plugs available in your room. A GFI-type plug that shut off before delivering the current that could kill someone would vastly improve the European electrical system.

    Why need to plug in razor? I only need place to secure strop.

  • The Spiderdaddy (unregistered) in reply to Geoff

    Were it not for the aggressively stupid and the careless this whole site would not exist.

  • (cs) in reply to Some damn Yank
    Some damn Yank:
    Mr X:
    Or how to play cricket.
    I think the Indians may disagree. Nagesh?

    We are curently creaming them at Mohali.

  • Simo (unregistered) in reply to Buddy

    [quote user="Buddy"][quote user="John Doe"]... I like it too. 240 V is generated as 2 X 120 V, with one hot lead out of phase relative to the other to double the voltage.[/quote]

    In Europe we have 3-phase 400V option for 230V. Used in stoves and electric saunas at least.

    And all modern Schuko outlets are child safe too, the holes open only when plugged open simultaneously.

  • (cs)
  • Nagesh (unregistered) in reply to Nagesh
    Nagesh:
    Some damn Yank:
    Mr X:
    Or how to play cricket.
    I think the Indians may disagree. Nagesh?

    We are curently creaming them at Mohali.

    Yes, it is being very fulfiling to enjoy the one place India has dominants.

  • (cs) in reply to frits
    frits:
    Bananas:
    If you cut your finger on one of those buss bars, game over.
    Not really. You'd have to complete the circuit with another cut body part. Your story doesn't really apply to what the OP was saying anyway. Not to mention the fact that it only takes fractions of an amp inside the body to cause fatality, so 1, 10, or 100 amps is all overkill in your scenario.

    Yep, like the seaman who killed himself with the a 9V battery (one of the small ones for calculators etc.) (http://www.darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin1999-50.html)

  • Nagesh (unregistered) in reply to Nagesh
    Nagesh:
    Nagesh:
    Some damn Yank:
    Mr X:
    Or how to play cricket.
    I think the Indians may disagree. Nagesh?

    We are curently creaming them at Mohali.

    Yes, it is being very fulfiling to enjoy the one place India has dominants.

    I have seen websites where India has many dominants! Many other interesting people also. Am looking for research purposes only, to be sure.

  • ants (unregistered)

    In case you are wondering:

    "Schuko" is short for "Schutzkontakt" and means "protection contact"

  • RFA (unregistered)

    This is why, in countries like Finland, these Schuko sockets need to have a plastic shutters blocking these holes.

    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets#CEE_7.2F4 Some countries, notably Finland, Norway and Sweden, require child-proof outlet shutters; the German Schuko standard does not have this requirement.

  • Roman (unregistered)

    What is happening???

    No "frist" comments?!!

  • Rfoxmich (unregistered) in reply to Chelloveck
    Chelloveck:
    Geoff:
    Also unless you are aggressively stupid and or careless NEMA1-15 and NEMA5-15s are really not that dangerous.

    I'm told that the difference between the US 120V tickle and the European 220V ouch! makes the additional safety measures worthwhile.

    So much so that the electricians around our community tend to work on sockets without bothering to do wimpy things like turn off the breakers. http://kids.actewagl.com.au/education/_lib/images/Energy/HairOnEnd.jpg is a picture of the last guy that worked on our house.

  • Rfoxmich (unregistered) in reply to Roman
    Roman:
    What is happening???

    No "frist" comments?!!

    And that's TRWTF

  • (cs) in reply to Yazeran
    Yazeran:
    frits:
    Bananas:
    If you cut your finger on one of those buss bars, game over.
    Not really. You'd have to complete the circuit with another cut body part. Your story doesn't really apply to what the OP was saying anyway. Not to mention the fact that it only takes fractions of an amp inside the body to cause fatality, so 1, 10, or 100 amps is all overkill in your scenario.

    Yep, like the seaman who killed himself with the a 9V battery (one of the small ones for calculators etc.) (http://www.darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin1999-50.html)

    50 milliAmps is the current where it becomes dangerous, 500 mA is the lethal threshold (where the current kills you for certain). That's for direct current. Alternating current shifts the boundaries upwards for a bit - though then you may have the problem that your heart tries to emulate the outside current's frequency. And 50 Hz is not a healthy frequency for a heart to beat to. That's the reason why you should go see a doctor if you got shocked and do an EKG.

  • Doc Brown (unregistered) in reply to Zog
    Zog:
    120VAC....remember children it is AMPS that kill...remind me again how many fires are caused in US houses because of the amount of electrons travelling down a wire....?

    But seriously, if you think this is bad you haven't seen half the things that have been done with electric sockets - not that I've ever had to rewrite an Italian hotel socket to accept a plug that is standard in the rest of the EU....cough!

    While it is current that kills, you still need the potential to drive the current. But, it only takes 100ma to kill someone.

  • FI-Schalter (unregistered) in reply to 'Murruhkan
    'Murruhkan:
    A GFI-type plug that shut off before delivering the current that could kill someone would vastly improve the European electrical system.

    I don't know about the rest of Europe, but here in Germany ALL sockets (that are accessible by "normal" people) have to be secured by a GFI (here called FI-Schalter) since 2007.

  • Anon (unregistered) in reply to Some damn Yank
    Some damn Yank:
    frits:
    Some damn Yank:
    I'm not going to defend our (USA) system, other than to say Thomas Edison himself designed it and, like Alexander Bell's telephone system, it always seems too expensive to change the existing infrastructure for a marginal improvement.
    Good point you bring up there. We invented electricity so piss off with your Euro-rules.
    Um, Edison didn't discover electricity, and he certainly didn't invent it. Some Euro-types discovered it. Do the names Volta, Ampère, Ohm, and Watt sound familiar? All Europeans. The USA's primary contribution was Benjamin Franklin's discovery that lightning is electricity. That and his getting polarity backwards for all of humanity.

    Only after the Parthians forgot about it first.

    I think Zeus or Thor or someone actually invented it. (wait, was Thor thunder? I never was good at keeping the gods straight)

    Actually it was Jesus who, as well all know, is clearly an American.

  • Doc Brown (unregistered) in reply to frits
    frits:
    I'm mellow. I enjoy arguing. I'm just putting the screws to you because you like to call people "ill-informed" and "twit" whilst demonstrating these exact traits.

    Arguing, with an engineer is like mud wrestling with a pig, after an hour you realize the pig enjoys it!

  • living off keyboard crumbs (unregistered) in reply to Nagesh

    It's not for a razor. It is for a grindstone. http://www.geekosystem.com/man-shaves-shovel-hatchet-scissors/

    CAPTCHA: opto If you just opto in to... oh screw this sh**, the CAPTCHA game isn't that funny.

  • techpaul (unregistered)

    Actually Schuko sucks for exactly the reason like quite afew US plugs.

    In a lot of countries that use Schuko you do not know WHICH pin is Live and and Neutral, so devices with single fuse are BANNED in many applications.

    Quite a lot of equipment has to be DOUBLE fused (one for Live and one for Neutral) so equipment does not stay live.

    This is importnat as fuses/breakers are primarily to stop FIRE, and the electrical regulations are there primarily a result of insurance industries in the past to reduce the risk of FIRE.

    So if a fuse blows you want to be sure it does stop the flow of ENERGY mening fire/heat is not increased by energy still being present. Also means if someone uses WRONG fire extinguisher less problems occur.

  • hvdh (unregistered) in reply to gobes

    There are child-safety inlets available for Schuko sockets. You have to twist a plug by 90 degrees before the contact holes open.

    http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/293/sicherungbx0.jpg

  • Dogga (unregistered) in reply to Chelloveck
    Chelloveck:
    Geoff:
    Also unless you are aggressively stupid and or careless NEMA1-15 and NEMA5-15s are really not that dangerous.

    I'm told that the difference between the US 120V tickle and the European 220V ouch! makes the additional safety measures worthwhile.

    AFAIK, 'Straya (Australia) uses 240V, with vaguely similar plugs to Americans (well, sort of) - I don't think we have too many incidents despite having reasonably little safety measures....

  • (cs) in reply to ants
    ants:
    In case you are wondering:

    "Schuko" is short for "Schutzkontakt" and means "protection contact"

    So... it's like a condom.

  • Dogga (unregistered) in reply to Mr X
    Mr X:
    Chelloveck:
    Mr X:
    Yes, but then it would we wouldn't be able to make a proper cup of tea. Have you tried a 120VAC kettle?

    Once it gets to 212 F (100 C for you foreigners), pumping more energy into the kettle isn't going to do a lot of good. Unless of course proper tea requires the rapid reduction of liquid via evaporation.

    Besides, proper tea is chilled and has ice cubes floating in it. Everyone knows that.

    But at 120VAC, it takes forever to get there. And don't try to tell an Englishman how to make proper tea. Or beer. Or how to play cricket.

    Tea, perhaps, but I think we Aussies might be able to teach you a thing or two about beer and cricket

  • int i = int(rand()*x+1); (unregistered)

    I like that British Standards use an acronymn to define the standard. Thare's something very appropriate about BS1363....

  • Not some damn European, but still (unregistered) in reply to Some damn Yank
    Some damn Yank:
    Zog:
    not that I've ever had to rewrite an Italian hotel socket to accept a plug that is standard in the rest of the EU....cough!
    That's the difference between North America and Europe. In NA we figure that if we changed the socket standard then we'd have to re-wire every building and appliance on the continent. While in Europe, they feel free to change standards all the time, they just leave the old ones in place. Forever. How many "standard" sockets do you have, anyway?

    Doesn't matter, really. I find that with a multi-tool, a coat hanger, and duct tape (of course) I can adapt any plug to any socket.

    Maybe that's cause America is 1 country. Europe is at least 5....

  • Jim (unregistered) in reply to Nagesh
    Nagesh:
    Some damn Yank:
    Mr X:
    But at 120VAC, it takes forever to get there.
    Not really. Ours takes less than two minutes.
    Mr X:
    And don't try to tell an Englishman how to make proper tea.
    Wouldn't think of it!
    Mr X:
    Or beer.
    I thought the Irish made the beer, and the English drank it.
    Mr X:
    Or how to play cricket.
    I think the Indians may disagree. Nagesh?

    We are in huge det to British colonisation efort. They bring much: knowlege of English, criket, railroading, parlimentry system, elektrisity, toilet. Since departur, we have not being able to emprove in most areas.

    I just realised that Nagesh is not a yank pretending to be an indian, but rather a Brit pretending to be an indian

  • Harold (unregistered) in reply to Geoff
    Geoff:
    I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not but, half the voltage means much less current flows for a given resistance, so you get LESS current through a human who has mistakenly make his or her self part of the circuit, not more.

    So as far electric shock hazard 120v is safer. Now it also means many things run much hotter so from a fire risk it might be more dangerous.

    Something about I V R....but I forget

  • James (unregistered) in reply to frits
    frits:
    Some damn Yank:
    frits:
    Some damn Yank:
    I'm not going to defend our (USA) system, other than to say Thomas Edison himself designed it and, like Alexander Bell's telephone system, it always seems too expensive to change the existing infrastructure for a marginal improvement.
    Good point you bring up there. We invented electricity so piss off with your Euro-rules.
    Um, Edison didn't discover electricity, and he certainly didn't invent it. Some Euro-types discovered it. Do the names Volta, Ampère, Ohm, and Watt sound familiar? All Europeans. The USA's primary contribution was Benjamin Franklin's discovery that lightning is electricity. That and his getting polarity backwards for all of humanity.

    I think Zeus or Thor or someone actually invented it. (wait, was Thor thunder? I never was good at keeping the gods straight)

    Hey it's like you almost caught the joke except you didn't.

    BTW- Watt? Really? Do you want to stick with that one as a discoverer of electricity?

    Watt invented Steam Engines? No really, I think it was about the same time as Cook invaded Australia.

  • Miandad (unregistered) in reply to frits
    frits:
    Some damn Yank:
    frits:
    Some damn Yank:
    I'm not going to defend our (USA) system, other than to say Thomas Edison himself designed it and, like Alexander Bell's telephone system, it always seems too expensive to change the existing infrastructure for a marginal improvement.
    Good point you bring up there. We invented electricity so piss off with your Euro-rules.
    Um, Edison didn't discover electricity, and he certainly didn't invent it. Some Euro-types discovered it. Do the names Volta, Ampère, Ohm, and Watt sound familiar? All Europeans. The USA's primary contribution was Benjamin Franklin's discovery that lightning is electricity. That and his getting polarity backwards for all of humanity.

    I think Zeus or Thor or someone actually invented it. (wait, was Thor thunder? I never was good at keeping the gods straight)

    Hey it's like you almost caught the joke except you didn't.

    BTW- Watt? Really? Do you want to stick with that one as a discoverer of electricity?

    Thales, anyone? Although it seems even before him, people were vaguely aware of the existence of electricity.

  • Some Australian (unregistered) in reply to Nagesh
    Nagesh:
    Nagesh:
    Some damn Yank:
    Mr X:
    Or how to play cricket.
    I think the Indians may disagree. Nagesh?

    We are curently creaming them at Mohali.

    Yes, it is being very fulfiling to enjoy the one place India has dominants.
    Hardly a creaming....4 balls to spare....

  • Gherty (unregistered) in reply to Roman
    Roman:
    What is happening???

    No "frist" comments?!!

    Curiously, no filthy minded Z-Guy either....perhaps Akismet is working? (or perhaps all FRIST comments come from one person)

  • Haha (unregistered) in reply to Anon
    Anon:
    Some damn Yank:
    frits:
    Some damn Yank:
    I'm not going to defend our (USA) system, other than to say Thomas Edison himself designed it and, like Alexander Bell's telephone system, it always seems too expensive to change the existing infrastructure for a marginal improvement.
    Good point you bring up there. We invented electricity so piss off with your Euro-rules.
    Um, Edison didn't discover electricity, and he certainly didn't invent it. Some Euro-types discovered it. Do the names Volta, Ampère, Ohm, and Watt sound familiar? All Europeans. The USA's primary contribution was Benjamin Franklin's discovery that lightning is electricity. That and his getting polarity backwards for all of humanity.

    Only after the Parthians forgot about it first.

    I think Zeus or Thor or someone actually invented it. (wait, was Thor thunder? I never was good at keeping the gods straight)

    Actually it was Jesus who, as well all know, is clearly an American.

    Californian, if I'm not mistaken...

  • Earp (unregistered) in reply to Chelloveck

    Voltage doesn't increase the danger, but the distance the electricity will jump. Its current that is dangerous. Any voltage above 80V can penetrate the skin... but its the amps that kill, not the volts.

  • (cs) in reply to Not some damn European, but still
    Not some damn European:
    Some damn Yank:
    Zog:
    not that I've ever had to rewrite an Italian hotel socket to accept a plug that is standard in the rest of the EU....cough!
    That's the difference between North America and Europe. In NA we figure that if we changed the socket standard then we'd have to re-wire every building and appliance on the continent. While in Europe, they feel free to change standards all the time, they just leave the old ones in place. Forever. How many "standard" sockets do you have, anyway?

    Doesn't matter, really. I find that with a multi-tool, a coat hanger, and duct tape (of course) I can adapt any plug to any socket.

    Maybe that's cause America is 1 country. Europe is at least 5....

    Okay smartarse, you're so clever, can you name at least 5 European countries? For bonus points, name 5 European countries smaller than Luxembourg.

  • Not some damn European, but still (unregistered) in reply to Matt Westwood
    Matt Westwood:
    Not some damn European:
    Some damn Yank:
    Zog:
    not that I've ever had to rewrite an Italian hotel socket to accept a plug that is standard in the rest of the EU....cough!
    That's the difference between North America and Europe. In NA we figure that if we changed the socket standard then we'd have to re-wire every building and appliance on the continent. While in Europe, they feel free to change standards all the time, they just leave the old ones in place. Forever. How many "standard" sockets do you have, anyway?

    Doesn't matter, really. I find that with a multi-tool, a coat hanger, and duct tape (of course) I can adapt any plug to any socket.

    Maybe that's cause America is 1 country. Europe is at least 5....

    Okay smartarse, you're so clever, can you name at least 5 European countries? For bonus points, name 5 European countries smaller than Luxembourg.

    Malta, Andorra, Vatican City, San Marino, Monaco

  • Bronie (unregistered) in reply to Jim
    Jim:
    I just realised that Nagesh is not a yank pretending to be an indian, but rather a Brit pretending to be an indian

    That's not laughing matter, because America independence was illegal - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15345511

    P.S. Fuck you Akismet

  • Fedaykin (unregistered) in reply to Some damn Yank
    Some damn Yank:
    holli:
    This must be that "internet over the power lines" thing the utilities were pushing about 10 years ago.

    No, powerline networking looks more like this:

    http://www.newegg.com/Store/SubCategory.aspx?SubCategory=294&name=Powerline-Networking

    I use this instead of flaky wireless connections.

  • Herby (unregistered) in reply to airdrik
    airdrik:
    Paul:
    Some damn Yank:
    I'm not going to defend our (USA) system, other than to say Thomas Edison himself designed it

    Whoa, we've been using direct DC current distribution all this time and nobody told me? ;-)

    FTFY

    Look, we are devolving to DC, look at all the 5 volt usb things that exist that don't even connect to the data pins. Of course, there is all the DC inside a PC that has lots of nice colorful wires.

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