• Pete (unregistered) in reply to Hans
    Hans:
    'Murruhkan:
    Some damn Yank:
    Steve:
    Shall be sticking with BS1363, not that I have much choice. 13 Amp at 230v. And a fuse in every appliance. Its the future ;)
    We (USA) have ground fault interrupters in every hair drier plug. THATS the future! (we also have GFI sockets near every sink, kitchen and bath, so we're double-covered)

    This was something I was surprised I did not see in the UK and Ireland. In the bathrooms, they only have a plug for "razors only" that's attached to the light above the mirror. Super-annoying when you need to plug in your phone and there are only two plugs available in your room. A GFI-type plug that shut off before delivering the current that could kill someone would vastly improve the European electrical system.

    You didn't see them because in Europe they are not integrated into some power outlet but are installed in the breaker box and usually protecting ALL circuits. These devices are called RCD (Residual-current device) over here and are mandatory for new installations e.g. in Germany, Norway and the UK.

    I already put the same thing. Although you do still occasionally see them as separate devices for gardening equipment and certain other devices.

  • Rob_Non_Luna (unregistered) in reply to Chelloveck

    I don't agree, Kettles in UK, Oz, NZ boil much faster. Irons too seem to be instant on.

  • Rob_Non_Luna (unregistered) in reply to Moonraquel

    Sometimes, I don't know if we Americans are joking or really believe Ben Franklin invented: Electricity/kites/glasses/printing/...

    Please be joking.

  • Pete (unregistered) in reply to Rob_Non_Luna
    Rob_Non_Luna:
    Sometimes, I don't know if we Americans are joking or really believe Ben Franklin invented: Electricity/kites/glasses/printing/...

    Please be joking.

    I think some are joking and some aren't and its hard to tell when written down rather than spoken who is joking about it.

  • Joe (unregistered) in reply to Some damn Yank
    Some damn Yank:
    holli:
    This must be that "internet over the power lines" thing the utilities were pushing about 10 years ago.
    Nah, it's the new 110Vase-T over Cat15A.

    Or at least, if it was a USian plug, that's what it would be. This must be some non-standard double-speed version.

    Maybe it's another implementation of the "Power over Ethernet" stuff I keep hearing about.

    --Joe

  • (cs) in reply to Rob_Non_Luna
    Rob_Non_Luna:
    Sometimes, I don't know if we Americans are joking or really believe Ben Franklin invented: Electricity/kites/glasses/printing/...

    Please be joking.

    Most of American "history" seems to be folklore and fairy-tales.

  • dd (unregistered) in reply to Eskil
    Eskil:
    Another advantage: Plugs can be mounted both ways, meaning the cord can point both up and down. Very practical.

    Take that, chunky British/US/Australian sockets :)

    I'd also like to point out that since we use a higher voltage (230V), we need less current (usually max 3A), so we need less copper, and the thermal resistance of the wires is far less (when we use a Vacumer or a Dryer with 2,75kW, our cables don't heat up). Also, since the connecting pins are WAY larger than the US ones, our pins can't bend as easily as the American ones... talk about CRAP in you own back yard!

    And yes, I'm German, and I'm happy that at least some of the standards adopted here at Germany (most of them ISOs, anyway) make A LOT of sense. Like the metric system... . But that's another can of worms :-D

  • dd (unregistered) in reply to dd

    ah damn, I should have written 16A instead of 3A :D

  • Shinobu (unregistered) in reply to The poop of DOOM
    The poop of DOOM:
    Wasn't string invented way after Franklin's time? I clearly remember C not knowing what it is, while C++ supported it. So it must've been invented sometime inbetween those two.
    QBasic had STRING, doesn't that count? And QBasic clearly predates the invention of lower case.
    frits:
    You didn't read the whole thread in context or you would have known I said neutral first. Don't tell me how to address other people either, shit for brains.
    I did and it gives the impression that you don't know what you're talking about; and no, you didn't say neutral first. Also, I didn't give you advice because I wanted to boss your around, but for your own benefit. Because your language makes you come off as an uncivilised and insecure prepubescent.
  • Chris (unregistered) in reply to Chelloveck
    Chelloveck:
    Geoff:
    Also unless you are aggressively stupid and or careless NEMA1-15 and NEMA5-15s are really not that dangerous.

    I'm told that the difference between the US 120V tickle and the European 220V ouch! makes the additional safety measures worthwhile.

    For any given load in watts, the number of amps the wires will have to carry, is in US twice that of the european counterpart, hence more heat, and risk of fire.

    Where a European kettle can do away with 10 amps, a US counterpart would need to pull 20 amps for the same thing.

    This causes a problem for pretty much any US installation that needs a bit of "oompf", as the wiring simply can't take it...

    Voltage has never killed anything, it's the amps that kill. You can easily get an electric shock from 20-30,000 V simply by walking across a floor, and then touching something metal, getting a nasty sting, but since the current (A) is very very low, nothing more than this happens.

    So, it actually turns out that the higher European voltage is actually overall safer due to the like for like lower use of amps. what is bad though, is the choice of 50hz instead of 60hz as the operating frequency, as this happens to be the same as the neuron signalling recovery frequency, meaning that you can easier get "frozen" in an accident.

  • Emperor Norton (unregistered) in reply to frits
    frits:
    Chelloveck:
    Besides, proper tea is chilled and has ice cubes floating in it. Everyone knows that.
    Supersaturation with sugar helps, too.
    No. All you need is lemon. No idea how you Southerners drink that syrup.
  • Anon. (unregistered) in reply to Jens
    Jens:
    Well, it is not a german system but an international standard. But the US tend to have nationalistic problems with international standards that are no former US standard, as with date formats, telephony, units... all those "US standards" are used in two to three other countries max. Like Liberia, Belize and Myanmar.
    Not-invented-here syndrome, anyone?
  • lokey (unregistered) in reply to Jens
    Jens:
    Geoff:
    You know I always see tech blogs saying how superior other nations plugs are to our NEMA1-15 and NEMA5-15s. Well fine possibly they are safer, but considering how many of them we use, and the density of them modern applications often require. I'd rather use ours then those bulky, expensive looking hunks of CRAP any day.

    Also unless you are aggressively stupid and or careless NEMA1-15 and NEMA5-15s are really not that dangerous.

    Well, it is not a german system but an international standard. But the US tend to have nationalistic problems with international standards that are no former US standard, as with date formats, telephony, units... all those "US standards" are used in two to three other countries max. Like Liberia, Belize and Myanmar.

    So such a comment does not surprise me at all.

    And the US Kicked everyone elses ass in two world wars, is the only superpower around, and out-produces the world in almost everything (food, industrial goods, etc.) - and we got there without "international standards". So go suck a Euro (before Greece sucks them all)

  • (cs) in reply to Shinobu
    Shinobu:
    frits:
    You didn't read the whole thread in context or you would have known I said neutral first. Don't tell me how to address other people either, shit for brains.
    I did and it gives the impression that you don't know what you're talking about; and no, you didn't say neutral first. Also, I didn't give you advice because I wanted to boss your around, but for your own benefit. Because your language makes you come off as an uncivilised and insecure prepubescent.

    Thanks for setting me straight Mr. Internet dude. I'm sure my life will be so much better now that you've shown me the error of my ways. For future reference, "pedantic dickweed" is a bit of a meme 'round these parts. Get with the program.

    Here's the start of the thread that you partial quoted:

    frits:
    Kuba:
    frits:
    The Article:
    From a safety perspective, the protruding metal clips establish a ground connection before the pins can even enter the socket.
    American-style three prong sockets make the ground connection first by use of one longer pin, and the two pronged variety aren't grounded so it doesn't matter.
    Of course that's wrong. One of the two prongs is a grounded conductor, of course (the Neutral).
    Grounding at the service panel is not done for safety.

    So technically, I didn't say neutral, "Kuba" did. However, it was implied.

  • (cs) in reply to Emperor Norton
    Emperor Norton:
    frits:
    Chelloveck:
    Besides, proper tea is chilled and has ice cubes floating in it. Everyone knows that.
    Supersaturation with sugar helps, too.
    No. All you need is lemon. No idea how you Southerners drink that syrup.
    Lemon in tea? To each his own, but that tastes like insect repellant smells to me.
  • mr (unregistered) in reply to gobes

    Well, you can by wall mounted plugs with included child protection, though that is not standardized unfortunately. That would be great, indeed.

    Otherwise I am very happy with Schuko plugs.

  • RC (unregistered)

    There's really no debate on the subject. You are all already familiar with the best power outlets out there, from plugging-in computer equipment. C13/C14 plugs are the best non-locking design out there. You can never get shocked by one, as the pins are sheathed, and a loose screw certainly wouldn't short them out.

    Pic: http://www.internationalconfig.com/prod_shot/57350.jpg

  • Jibble (unregistered) in reply to frits
    frits:
    Hey, Rest of the World: If you only used 120 VAC, you wouldn't have to worry so much about safety.

    Yeah, let's double the Amps in all the wiring. That sounds much safer...

    Not.

  • STuart (unregistered) in reply to Mr X

    Hands up UK citizens who has not stepped on a UK plug and hurt themselves? Nobody?

  • (cs) in reply to Matt Westwood
    Matt Westwood:
    Rob_Non_Luna:
    Sometimes, I don't know if we Americans are joking or really believe Ben Franklin invented: Electricity/kites/glasses/printing/...

    Please be joking.

    Most of American "history" seems to be folklore and fairy-tales.

    I blame television.

  • GruntledPostalWorker (unregistered)

    My powersocket can beat up your powersocket.

    American strawberries are tastier than European strawberries.

  • (cs) in reply to lokey
    lokey:
    And the US Kicked everyone elses ass in two world wars, is the only superpower around, and out-produces the world in almost everything (food, industrial goods, etc.) - and we got there without "international standards". So go suck a Euro (before Greece sucks them all)
    Unfortunately, in the wars after the two big ones, the USA have a somewhat less stellar track record. * Korea: wouldn't exactly call that a major success; the commies are still there and the stalemate is ongoing. * Vietnam: um, OK, next. * Gulf War: wouldn't call it a success, since it required yet another war. * Somalia: um, OK, next. * Afghanistan: wouldn't exactly call it a big success. * Iraq: wouldn't exactly call it a big success.

    Granted, you've successfully invaded Panama and Grenada, countries hardly any bigger than the average Mid-West town, but those two were complete successes.

    By the way, your military uses the metric system.

  • trtrwtf (unregistered) in reply to Matt Westwood
    Matt Westwood:
    Rob_Non_Luna:
    Sometimes, I don't know if we Americans are joking or really believe Ben Franklin invented: Electricity/kites/glasses/printing/...

    Please be joking.

    Most of s/American// "history" s/seems to be/is/ folklore and fairy-tales.

    That's fixed it.

  • (cs) in reply to lokey
    lokey:
    Jens:
    Geoff:
    You know I always see tech blogs saying how superior other nations plugs are to our NEMA1-15 and NEMA5-15s. Well fine possibly they are safer, but considering how many of them we use, and the density of them modern applications often require. I'd rather use ours then those bulky, expensive looking hunks of CRAP any day.

    Also unless you are aggressively stupid and or careless NEMA1-15 and NEMA5-15s are really not that dangerous.

    Well, it is not a german system but an international standard. But the US tend to have nationalistic problems with international standards that are no former US standard, as with date formats, telephony, units... all those "US standards" are used in two to three other countries max. Like Liberia, Belize and Myanmar.

    So such a comment does not surprise me at all.

    And the US Kicked everyone elses ass in two world wars, is the only superpower around, and out-produces the world in almost everything (food, industrial goods, etc.) - and we got there without "international standards". So go suck a Euro (before Greece sucks them all)

    It can be argued that they got there by means of exploitation of various slave races, be they negroes (17th century) or Latin Americans (current) ... frankly it's nothing to be proud of.

    Having said that, the sociopolitical behaviour of the British Empire in our not-so-distant past was absolutely reprehensible, so bear in mind I'm doing no more than making an observation here - I'm in no position to adopt a holier-than-thou attitude.

  • (cs) in reply to frits
    frits:
    Emperor Norton:
    frits:
    Chelloveck:
    Besides, proper tea is chilled and has ice cubes floating in it. Everyone knows that.
    Supersaturation with sugar helps, too.
    No. All you need is lemon. No idea how you Southerners drink that syrup.
    Lemon in tea? To each his own, but that tastes like insect repellant smells to me.

    No milk, no sugar, no lemeon, just straight from the leaves is the only way to drink it.

  • (cs) in reply to GruntledPostalWorker
    GruntledPostalWorker:
    My powersocket can beat up your powersocket.

    American strawberries are tastier than European strawberries.

    ... while English cheese is tastier than American cheese, and English beer is tastier and comes in a far wider variety than American beer, and English programmers are far more intelligent than American programmers ... the list goes on for ever.

  • (cs) in reply to QJo
    QJo:
    ... while English cheese is tastier than American cheese...
    What you don't understand is that we Americans rarely eat cheese...
  • trtrwtf (unregistered) in reply to frits
    frits:
    QJo:
    ... while English cheese is tastier than American cheese...
    What you don't understand is that we Americans rarely eat cheese...

    But y'all eat plenty of cheez, I notice.

    Massachusetts has some pretty horrifying food. I was walking by the local pizza joint/bar one night and I saw a woman about the size of a cow, carrying most of another cow stacked on a baguette, covered with something that I assume was meant to be a "cheese sauce", apparently intending to eat same.

    I was seriously looking around for the paddles, in case she needed a reset during her meal.

  • (cs) in reply to frits
    frits:
    QJo:
    ... while English cheese is tastier than American cheese...
    What you don't understand is that we Americans rarely eat cheese...
    Well, of course not, because your cheese isn't very tasty.
  • European (unregistered) in reply to lokey
    lokey:
    Jens:
    Geoff:
    You know I always see tech blogs saying how superior other nations plugs are to our NEMA1-15 and NEMA5-15s. Well fine possibly they are safer, but considering how many of them we use, and the density of them modern applications often require. I'd rather use ours then those bulky, expensive looking hunks of CRAP any day.

    Also unless you are aggressively stupid and or careless NEMA1-15 and NEMA5-15s are really not that dangerous.

    Well, it is not a german system but an international standard. But the US tend to have nationalistic problems with international standards that are no former US standard, as with date formats, telephony, units... all those "US standards" are used in two to three other countries max. Like Liberia, Belize and Myanmar.

    So such a comment does not surprise me at all.

    And the US Kicked everyone elses ass in two world wars, is the only superpower around, and out-produces the world in almost everything (food, industrial goods, etc.) - and we got there without "international standards". So go suck a Euro (before Greece sucks them all)

    Let me correct that: The US successfully played favorites during two world wars, sitting most of the time securely behind the big sea, outproduced the world in almost everything until it outsourced it to China and is one of the two declining 20th century superpowers, already dependent on the coming one (China), a non-democratic (2 laughable major parties, no alternatives) police state. Keep your own standards, we don't want them :) Oh, and our plugs rule.

  • cappeca (unregistered)

    TRWTF is Java.

  • blueg3 (unregistered) in reply to Nederlander
    Nederlander:
    frits:
    Hey, Rest of the World: If you only used 120 VAC, you wouldn't have to worry so much about safety.

    Half the voltage means double the current to deliver the same amount of power. And we all know that current kills.

    If you're getting shocked and your body isn't the largest resistor in the circuit, you're probably screwed regardless.

    If you are the large resistor in the circuit, the mains voltage is what will determine how much current passes through you.

  • yername (unregistered) in reply to Paul
    Paul:
    The 2-pin NEMA plugs *are* easier to pack in a laptop bag though compared to the giant UK or Schuko plugs. But that's about the only advantage they have.
    Laptop PSUs use the Europlug.
  • ct (unregistered) in reply to Quicksilver
    Quicksilver:
    Interesting thing about the ongoing 11ßVAC debate here:

    Germany was also running on 110VAC until 1987. In 1987.

    Probably there must be another Germany I am not aware of...

    Greets from Bavaria.

  • Martin (unregistered) in reply to ct

    If I remember corrctly they switched the voltage form 220 to 230. It was worth mentioning in the news but had otherwise no impact on anyone's installation or appliances.

    It was done to reduce resistance and making transport of electricity more efficient.

    Martin

  • Schukov (unregistered)

    CEE 7/4 "Schuko" is normal socket for me. American/British/Australian sockets look very unstable.

  • (cs) in reply to Martin
    Martin:
    If I remember corrctly they switched the voltage form 220 to 230. It was worth mentioning in the news but had otherwise no impact on anyone's installation or appliances.

    It was done to reduce resistance and making transport of electricity more efficient.

    Martin

    Not quite - it was done to standardise Europe with the UK, which was on 240V but is now on 230V. Because the older standards had wider standard deviation, no equipment needed to be modified.

  • (cs) in reply to Martin
    Martin:
    If I remember corrctly they switched the voltage form 220 to 230. It was worth mentioning in the news but had otherwise no impact on anyone's installation or appliances.

    It was done to reduce resistance and making transport of electricity more efficient.

    Martin

    In the US we these things called transformers that step the voltage down for in-building usage, so distribution efficiency is not much of a concern, since it's only for the last 100 feet or so, much of which is behind the meter.

  • Martin (unregistered) in reply to frits
    frits:
    In the US we these things called transformers that step the voltage down for in-building usage, so distribution efficiency is not much of a concern, since it's only for the last 100 feet or so, much of which is behind the meter.

    Wow!! What wonders you have.....

    I don't know exactly why they did it. But I remember hearing in the news that they did it. And now, I looked it up (Here in Germany we have something called Wikipedia - it's great, you should buy one for yourself)

    The switched it to 230V to harmonize between different countries in Europe. Some of them had 220V (Germany, Austria, Swiss) others (maybe only one) had 240V (UK).

    Martin

  • (cs) in reply to Geoff

    I have yet to see a plug design that is better than the Neutrik PowerCon

  • Evil Bob (unregistered) in reply to Thor
    Thor:
    Americans shoulnd't complain about these sockets until you have changed the American Standard toilets to be useful ;)

    Yes, because the European "shit shelf" is so appealing.

  • PRMan (unregistered) in reply to Mr X
    Mr X:
    Yes, but then it would we wouldn't be able to make a proper cup of tea. Have you tried a 120VAC kettle?

    No. We have this new invention called instant heating faucets. Failing that, we have an older invention called a microwave.

    Seriously? People still use tea kettles? This isn't the 19th century...

  • PRMan (unregistered) in reply to Paul
    Paul:
    Geoff:
    Also unless you are aggressively stupid and or careless NEMA1-15 and NEMA5-15s are really not that dangerous.
    Given those criteria I'm surprised that American emergency rooms aren't constantly jammed to capacity with smoldering electrocution victims.

    The 110V non-deadly shock does a lot to curb that.

  • PRMan (unregistered) in reply to L.
    L.:
    frits:
    Hey, Rest of the World: If you only used 120 VAC, you wouldn't have to worry so much about safety.

    hey america, if you used only 230 VAC you would have +5% power efficiency on all your PSU's ...

    Besides our power plugs are far safer than the most widespread US standard : those ridiculous two flat pin thingies. (that thing keeps on unplugging and it doesn't even have ground ...)

    If they keep unplugging, you just bend them and plug it back in...

    Jeez, it's not that hard, people...

  • PRMan (unregistered) in reply to Paul

    [quote user="Paul"][quote user="Mr X"]American plugs don't need to be as safe as European ones, they only have carry half the juice.

    [quote user="frits"]Hey, Rest of the World: If you only used 120 VAC, you wouldn't have to worry so much about safety.[/quote]

    It occurs to me that UK sockets are rated to supply 13 amps, Schuko is 16 amps and the most common NEMA outlet is 15 amps.

    Using yourself to complete a circuit across any of them for anything more than a fraction of a second is going to suck REALLY hard, so I'd prefer the sockets which call for some effort and ingenuity to successfully do that.

    It also occurs to me that the typical accidental connection across a half-unplugged 2-prong NEMA plug isn't going to last anything like that long. Still gonna suck though.[/quote]

    Most US plugs are 20 amps...

  • Jou (unregistered) in reply to gobes
    gobes:
    Here, in France, our plug system is close to the German one. But we have one more thing they apaprently don't have: a child-proof system.
    The German plugs do have that child protection as the French, but they are not enforced. Many new plugs use them. And yes, we need a hammer too from time to time, try to use that force when the plug is somewhere in the back of a 19" rack.

    Captcha: validus - indeed..

  • Jou (unregistered) in reply to Chelloveck
    Chelloveck:
    I'm told that the difference between the US 120V tickle and the European 220V ouch! makes the additional safety measures worthwhile.
    Currently it is 234V, there is a ongoing project in Europe to make it slowly to 240V. It started way over ten years ago to slowly increase the voltage over time, mainly since some European states were using 220V (like it was here in Germany) and others were using 240V. And: I know how 234 volts feel ; ), never forget the electrician rule to have one hand in your pocket or otherwise isolated.
  • hallo.amt (unregistered) in reply to Nagesh
    Nagesh:
    And that's how power distribution is done in New Jersey [image]
  • hallo.amt (unregistered) in reply to hallo.amt

    damn, I cannot post it again :( sorry, here the correct link [IMG=http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/589/img0196h.th.jpg][/IMG]

    This picture was taken this year.

  • (cs) in reply to Chelloveck
    Chelloveck:
    Mr X:
    Yes, but then it would we wouldn't be able to make a proper cup of tea. Have you tried a 120VAC kettle?

    Once it gets to 212 F (100 C for you foreigners), pumping more energy into the kettle isn't going to do a lot of good. Unless of course proper tea requires the rapid reduction of liquid via evaporation.

    Besides, proper tea is chilled and has ice cubes floating in it. Everyone knows that.

    Come on: Everyone knows that proper tea requires reducing the water, in order to increase the concentration of hydrogen monoxide.

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