• (cs) in reply to llxx
    llxx:

    All that they're being taught these days is nothing but OOP and HLL. This is what happens when you don't get them started with Asm first - they don't understand a single thing about how the machine actually functions and just know how to write (sort-of-working WTF'd) code. It's pathetic, the quality of programmers these days...


    How does a non-existent grasp of hex guarantee to make you worse as an OO programmer?

    Glad they don't teach your version of logic in college.

  • (cs) in reply to stewie
    stewie:
    llxx:

    All that they're being taught these days is nothing but OOP and HLL. This is what happens when you don't get them started with Asm first - they don't understand a single thing about how the machine actually functions and just know how to write (sort-of-working WTF'd) code. It's pathetic, the quality of programmers these days...


    How does a non-existent grasp of hex guarantee to make you worse as an OO programmer?

    Glad they don't teach your version of logic in college.



    OO or not, at some point your program needs to do stuff with bits,  bytes and words. Understanding the implications of your high-level methods means having at the very least a passing acquaintance with low-level operations. Hardware is still not fast enough or cheap enough for anyone coding anything bigger than a two-hit-a-day blog about cats to go about his/her business blissfully ignorant of what's going on under the covers.
  • (cs) in reply to Stan Rogers
    Stan Rogers:
    stewie:
    llxx:

    All that they're being taught these days is nothing but OOP and HLL. This is what happens when you don't get them started with Asm first - they don't understand a single thing about how the machine actually functions and just know how to write (sort-of-working WTF'd) code. It's pathetic, the quality of programmers these days...


    How does a non-existent grasp of hex guarantee to make you worse as an OO programmer?

    Glad they don't teach your version of logic in college.



    OO or not, at some point your program needs to do stuff with bits,  bytes and words. Understanding the implications of your high-level methods means having at the very least a passing acquaintance with low-level operations. Hardware is still not fast enough or cheap enough for anyone coding anything bigger than a two-hit-a-day blog about cats to go about his/her business blissfully ignorant of what's going on under the covers.

    Kind of like in Java, with the String class. If you have never been forced to write small programs implementing string manipulation using char arrays, then you may not understand why those multiple indexOf("&"), replace(" "," ") and equalsIgnoreCase() are taking so long to execute. Extra points if you don't understand OOP, and unknowingly create a new unnecessary String at every step.

    Most enligthening task ever: find position of substring inside a string using only char arrays and the ++ and -- operators to increase and decrease your int indexes, and while loops. Use the most elegant and simple code. Must accept empty strings and substrings with no especial checks (checking the lengths at the start of the function is not allowed, the main loop has to be able to handle those cases by itself).

    You had to be able to explain the behaviour of the index "i" for a "n" lenght string for i=0, i=i+1, i=n-1, i=n. This forces you to understand what happens exactly at boundary cases, and I found I could write loops faster after that :)

  • guenter (unregistered)

    Bullshit, for a myriad of reasons.

  • (cs) in reply to Enric Naval
    Enric Naval:
    Stan Rogers:
    stewie:
    llxx:

    All that they're being taught these days is nothing but OOP and HLL. This is what happens when you don't get them started with Asm first - they don't understand a single thing about how the machine actually functions and just know how to write (sort-of-working WTF'd) code. It's pathetic, the quality of programmers these days...


    How does a non-existent grasp of hex guarantee to make you worse as an OO programmer?

    Glad they don't teach your version of logic in college.



    OO or not, at some point your program needs to do stuff with bits,  bytes and words. Understanding the implications of your high-level methods means having at the very least a passing acquaintance with low-level operations. Hardware is still not fast enough or cheap enough for anyone coding anything bigger than a two-hit-a-day blog about cats to go about his/her business blissfully ignorant of what's going on under the covers.

    Kind of like in Java, with the String class. If you have never been forced to write small programs implementing string manipulation using char arrays, then you may not understand why those multiple indexOf("&"), replace(" "," ") and equalsIgnoreCase() are taking so long to execute. Extra points if you don't understand OOP, and unknowingly create a new unnecessary String at every step.

    Most enligthening task ever: find position of substring inside a string using only char arrays and the ++ and -- operators to increase and decrease your int indexes, and while loops. Use the most elegant and simple code. Must accept empty strings and substrings with no especial checks (checking the lengths at the start of the function is not allowed, the main loop has to be able to handle those cases by itself).

    You had to be able to explain the behaviour of the index "i" for a "n" lenght string for i=0, i=i+1, i=n-1, i=n. This forces you to understand what happens exactly at boundary cases, and I found I could write loops faster after that :)

    Or you could, like, you know, just implement a complete string structure/class in C or C++, which would more or less lead to the same thing but with memory management issues on top.

  • (cs) in reply to masklinn

    On hex not being covered in courses:

    Weird - I did a BTEC National Diploma in Computer Studies (A-Level equivalent in the UK, way lower than a CS degree) and I did a bit of hex. Not programming in it, just arithmetic and conversions to and from decimal, etc.

    But having said that, I've never used those skills. If I wanted to add up or convert hex, I'd use a calculator. We use hex for some comms hardware at work (GSM modems, to be precise), but I like to stick with higher-level languages, myself. Somebody will always need to use it, but these are in the minority, I think.

  • (cs) in reply to Ron G
    Anonymous:
    Either your young compadre is lying about his qualifications, or this story's complete balony, cooked up to to pour scorn on young turks.

    There is not a single Computer Science degree on the planet that doesn't contain numerous areas where hex is used and taught extensively. A CompSci graduate not knowing about hex is like a mathematician not knowing about addition.

    I smell bull.


    I really WISH I could agree with you but I have emperical evidence to the contrary. There are people graduting with degrees in Software engineering in the college I work at (a reputable national institution) who would have problems programing "Hello World". I have no doubt what so ever that many of them would have no idea what 12DFE represents in HEX and would probalby have no idea of what HEX is at all.

    Bart.
  • (cs) in reply to voyager
    voyager:

    I really WISH I could agree with you but I have emperical evidence to the contrary. There are people graduting with degrees in Software engineering in the college I work at (a reputable national institution) who would have problems programing "Hello World". I have no doubt what so ever that many of them would have no idea what 12DFE represents in HEX and would probalby have no idea of what HEX is at all.

    Bart.


    In my experience, completion of any kind of computer oriented degree does not seem to correlate with any skill in a computer oriented discipline in the real world.  Somehow the education just doesn't connect with real world success.  Many employers I know weigh practical experience much more heavily than a cs degree.  Some like to look for any science/engineering/math degree coupled with experience while others just about anything but demonstrable skill.

    The best programmer I've worked with backed into the industry.  He was getting an advanced degree in music compositon and was doing research in electronic music.  This was in the late 1970s, and he was working with early microprocessor controlled synthesizers.  He wound up writing his own operating system and music software.  After finishing his education, he wrote major parts of video games for early Apple and Atari systems, then built custom factory automation software for a major defense contractor.  He did a tremendous amount of high quality work on a music degree.
  • (cs) in reply to RyGuy

    RyGuy:
    There is no way in hell that he doesn't know what hex is with those credentials.  No way.

    I once worked with a CS graduate who did know what a database was. Granted, he was a football player, and probably played his way through college, but a CS degree??? Luckily, he was a smart guy, so I taught him pretty quickly.

  • ByteJuggler (unregistered) in reply to johnl
    johnl:
    On hex not being covered in courses: Weird - I did a BTEC National Diploma in Computer Studies (A-Level equivalent in the UK, way lower than a CS degree) and I did a bit of hex. Not programming in it, just arithmetic and conversions to and from decimal, etc. But having said that, I've never used those skills. If I wanted to add up or convert hex, I'd use a calculator. We use hex for some comms hardware at work (GSM modems, to be precise), but I like to stick with higher-level languages, myself. Somebody will always need to use it, but these are in the minority, I think.


    Yeah I find it impossible to believe that anybody from a tertiary educational institution on the planet (or with more than a fleeting interest/experience in computers) can end up not knowing what hex is... I learned about hex when I was about 8 on my first microcomputer.  I first "officially" learned about it while still at school during Computer Studies classes (when number systems were covered, which included binary, octal, hex and a few other esoterics for measure.)  I am from South Africa btw.  So, either the guy is a great big BS'er, or he's got a really short memory, he *really* didn't pay attention in class and scraped through his degrees, or his educational credentials are fake... 
  • (cs) in reply to frunobulax

    When relational hit our shop I ran through some self-training materials they made available and thought it was pretty cool. I went to a meeting where our professionally trained, experienced DB2 lead technical guy was asked to explain referential integrity constraints and cascading deletes and such. He gave it all out completely backwards. With only a few hours of self training I wasn't quite prepared to speak up in that setting so I waited until later to ask him about it and he stuck with his interpretation. Several years later we closed that site and I transfered to another but they retained him as a consultant working from home because we had so few "experts." Ouch.

  • (cs)

    This thread has inspired me to finally express in some detial my feelings on the total errosion of standards in CS degrees and the effects that has on people like myself who have to contract programmers form time to time. You can find my article in my blog here: http://www.minds.nuim.ie/~voyager/blog/index.php?/archives/31-Is-a-CS-Degree-actually-WORTH-anything.html

    If you have any comments please leave them on the blog.

    Cheers,

    Bart.

  • blindman (unregistered) in reply to kaj
    Anonymous:
    A friend of mine swears that more than half the CS graduates he interviews can't tell him what 5 is in binary, even if given all the time they want and pen and paper.
    Then just flip them binary 4 and run away.
  • cleopatra_jones (unregistered)

    What a hoot! And believe me I get it (I'm a mainframe,yes, mainframe dump reader from wayyyyy,well not that way but relative to the concept of "Internet time", way, back).   I've learned
    to be patient with the youngsters... (After all, I remember being the new kid on the block who knew
    more then the "old-timers".... ***WRONG ***)   ;)

  • Paul O (unregistered) in reply to cleopatra_jones

    Hex?  Hex.  Nope I don't see any hex on my slide rule.

    C'mon folks, there's plenty of room for various specializations these days in CS.  You don't need to write a compiler in order to program a web page (if you call that programming, that is).  You don't need to write device drivers in order to create a ray-tracing graphics package.

    And you don't need to do hex math to write decent oh-oh programs or SQL queries.  (Sorry, that should be "Ooooh".  No, wait, "OO".)

    Yes, you can write crap with the best understanding of all of the above.  But I'd rather someone be educated in proper data structures and programming techniques than to spend all their time on the finer flaws of specific programming languages.

  • Anonymous Coward (unregistered)

    My Dad used to say "I am not young enough to know everything".


    Yours Sincerely,

    Anonymous Coward Equire.

  • Anonymous Coward (unregistered) in reply to cleopatra_jones
    Anonymous:
    (After all, I remember being the new kid on the block who knew
    more then the "old-timers".... ***WRONG ***)   ;)

    Did they know the difference between "then" and "than"?
  • (cs) in reply to Paul O

    Anonymous:
    You don't need to write a compiler in order to program a web page (if you call that programming, that is).

    Let us not forget that even HTML color codes are in... HEX!

  • jzlondon (unregistered) in reply to Gene Wirchenko

    Gene Wirchenko:

    One poster asked why GUIDs were used.  32 hex characters does not necessarily mean a GUID.  I was reading hex dumps in the '70s that consisted of lines of 32 hex characters.  After all, that is 10(hex) bytes.

    Sincerely,

    Gene Wirchenko
     

     

    One word, Mr. "Sincerely Gene Wirchenko".

    Irony.

     

    By the way, I like the way you distinguish yourself from all the insincere Gene Wirchenkos out there.  Some of those fake ones really suck.

  • Kiss me, I'm Polish (unregistered) in reply to jzlondon

    Purdue University?
    The name's really close to "Uniwersytet Pierdów", which means "Farts University", or "Uniwersytet Pierdól", "Little Crap University" in polish.
    I can't really understand how the guy went so far and wrote some code that worked, more or less, without knowing any hex number.

    And the captcha is quite a challenge for the color blind.

  • (cs) in reply to voyager
    voyager:
    Anonymous:
    Either your young compadre is lying about his qualifications, or this story's complete balony, cooked up to to pour scorn on young turks.

    There is not a single Computer Science degree on the planet that doesn't contain numerous areas where hex is used and taught extensively. A CompSci graduate not knowing about hex is like a mathematician not knowing about addition.

    I smell bull.


    I really WISH I could agree with you but I have emperical evidence to the contrary. There are people graduting with degrees in Software engineering in the college I work at (a reputable national institution) who would have problems programing "Hello World". I have no doubt what so ever that many of them would have no idea what 12DFE represents in HEX and would probalby have no idea of what HEX is at all.

    Bart.


    I once met a guy who had a degree in software engineering (a "Dipl.Ing. (FH)" for those who know the Austrian education system) but he could not write programs. He told me that he managed to get his degree because many tasks were done in teams, and he was the one who wrote documentation.
  • (cs) in reply to RevMike
    RevMike:
    voyager:

    I really WISH I could agree with you but I have emperical evidence to the contrary. There are people graduting with degrees in Software engineering in the college I work at (a reputable national institution) who would have problems programing "Hello World". I have no doubt what so ever that many of them would have no idea what 12DFE represents in HEX and would probalby have no idea of what HEX is at all.

    Bart.


    In my experience, completion of any kind of computer oriented degree does not seem to correlate with any skill in a computer oriented discipline in the real world.  Somehow the education just doesn't connect with real world success.  Many employers I know weigh practical experience much more heavily than a cs degree.  Some like to look for any science/engineering/math degree coupled with experience while others just about anything but demonstrable skill.

    The best programmer I've worked with backed into the industry.  He was getting an advanced degree in music compositon and was doing research in electronic music.  This was in the late 1970s, and he was working with early microprocessor controlled synthesizers.  He wound up writing his own operating system and music software.  After finishing his education, he wrote major parts of video games for early Apple and Atari systems, then built custom factory automation software for a major defense contractor.  He did a tremendous amount of high quality work on a music degree.


    Do you have a degree?

    Sincerely,

    Richard Nixon
  • John Sloan (unregistered)

    Oh, wait, I see the problem. You should have printed it in octal. Yeah, that's it. Those of us so old we cut our teeth on PDP-11s have never been completely comfortable with hexidecimal.

     

  • Pax (unregistered)

    Actually (and sadly), he's probably right.  Hex is of no use to him as he will no doubt soon be on the fast track to management.

  • (cs) in reply to Richard Nixon
    Richard Nixon:
    RevMike:
    voyager:

    I really WISH I could agree with you but I have emperical evidence to the contrary. There are people graduting with degrees in Software engineering in the college I work at (a reputable national institution) who would have problems programing "Hello World". I have no doubt what so ever that many of them would have no idea what 12DFE represents in HEX and would probalby have no idea of what HEX is at all.

    Bart.


    In my experience, completion of any kind of computer oriented degree does not seem to correlate with any skill in a computer oriented discipline in the real world.  Somehow the education just doesn't connect with real world success.  Many employers I know weigh practical experience much more heavily than a cs degree.  Some like to look for any science/engineering/math degree coupled with experience while others just about anything but demonstrable skill.

    The best programmer I've worked with backed into the industry.  He was getting an advanced degree in music compositon and was doing research in electronic music.  This was in the late 1970s, and he was working with early microprocessor controlled synthesizers.  He wound up writing his own operating system and music software.  After finishing his education, he wrote major parts of video games for early Apple and Atari systems, then built custom factory automation software for a major defense contractor.  He did a tremendous amount of high quality work on a music degree.


    Do you have a degree?

    Sincerely,

    Richard Nixon


    The needle's stuck. Would somebody please give the record player some gentle percussive maintenance?
  • (cs) in reply to ammoQ

    ammoQ:
    I once met a guy who had a degree in software engineering (a "Dipl.Ing. (FH)" for those who know the Austrian education system) but he could not write programs. He told me that he managed to get his degree because many tasks were done in teams, and he was the one who wrote documentation.

    I love those guys. I write the code and they write the documentation for me. Just don't let them touch the code!

  • (cs) in reply to MartinL
    MartinL:

    ammoQ:
    I once met a guy who had a degree in software engineering (a "Dipl.Ing. (FH)" for those who know the Austrian education system) but he could not write programs. He told me that he managed to get his degree because many tasks were done in teams, and he was the one who wrote documentation.

    I love those guys. I write the code and they write the documentation for me. Just don't let them touch the code!



    He wouldn't touch the code, since he doesn't know at all how to write programs.
  • (cs) in reply to ammoQ
    I once met a guy who had a degree in software engineering

    Sounds almost like "I once owned a dog that was smarter than you" ;)

  • Kensin (unregistered)

    O dude, whats this all about, what are you saying?
             What are you talking about?????

  • csrster (unregistered) in reply to frunobulax
    Anonymous:

    15 years ago, when I was a know-it-all recent grad, I had the misfortune of working with some seasoned developers who were really were morons. When I approached the seasoned team lead of the database group (raised on COBOL and hierarchical IBM databases) to discuss a completely retarded relational data model (not even first normal form, only one foreign key was allowed per table, keys were generated with no unique identifier derived from data), I tried explain the concept of foreign keys, primary keys one to many, and many to many relationships, referential integrity and how those concepts, if applied to the data model would make it usable.

    I was dismissed with this zinger "key, foreign key, what's the difference?, they are both keys, your ivory tower BS won't work in the real world, relational databases are just like any other, bla bla bla..". They never straightened out the retarded data model, and the product never worked becuase the database was always filled with nonsense.

    Of course the problems were blamed on  relational database technology in general, not  the fact that the people designing the database were complte morons who had absolutley no clue about relational databases.



    A general rule here - There may be a time and a place for anti-intelectualism, but a complex software
    development project isn't it.
  • Ian (unregistered) in reply to Richard Nixon
    llxx:

    All that they're being taught these days is nothing but OOP and HLL. This is what happens when you don't get them started with Asm first - they don't understand a single thing about how the machine actually functions and just know how to write (sort-of-working WTF'd) code. It's pathetic, the quality of programmers these days...

    I can do conversions hex <> dec mentally on 4-digit hex numbers and add+subtract mentally with them. It's what you need to do when programming in Asm (the low-level type, not the high-level-assembler-lookalikes that are supposed to be Asm these days). Representation of digital data should be the first thing taught in any CS course.




    Richard Nixon:


    Yes Gene - "nybble" is obscure because it's much more commonly called a "nibble." Have a nice day!

    Sincerely,

    Richard Nixon



    Honestly, you guys!  Are y'all wearing those glow-in-the-dark condoms again?  Looks like a scene from Attack of The Revenging Sith Clones in here!

  • (cs) in reply to John Sloan
    Anonymous:

    Those of us so old we cut our teeth on PDP-11s have never been completely comfortable with hexidecimal.


    They don't even know how to spell it.
  • (cs) in reply to ammoQ

    ammoQ:

    I once met a guy who had a degree in software engineering (a "Dipl.Ing. (FH)" for those who know the Austrian education system) but he could not write programs. He told me that he managed to get his degree because many tasks were done in teams, and he was the one who wrote documentation.

    It's terrifying how often this kind of stuff happens. Alone made tasks are not really an answer as these guys either get help from fellow students who end up making most of the programs or they simply pay someone to do these. After a  few years, we end up reading their code in daily wtf. Bah.

  • (cs) in reply to dpm
    dpm:

    During my college years (I graduated in 1984) I sometimes thought I was the only person going for a CS degree
    who actually wanted to learn how to program.  My classmates --- especially the females --- were


    Females? Going for a CS degree? In the early 80s?

    I call bullshit  :)
  • (cs) in reply to Mike R
    Mike R:
    I'd think it was high time to do some calling around on those 2 "degrees".


    Gotta agree, there's just no way in hell this guy has done a computer science degree and not heard of hex.


  • Tare69 (unregistered) in reply to brazzy

    I remember to learn binary & hex (family puting random number on paper and I change it to binary & hex) in early of 80s :). Sinclair ZX-81s manual was full of hexadecimal and I was like 13-14 years old.

    Markku T.

    Finland

  • (cs) in reply to brazzy
    brazzy:
    dpm:

    During my college years (I graduated in 1984) I sometimes thought I was the only person going for a CS degree
    who actually wanted to learn how to program.  My classmates --- especially the females --- were


    Females? Going for a CS degree? In the early 80s?

    I call bullshit  :)


    Perhaps you'll have less trouble believing it when I tell you it was the University of Florida.
    A lot of them were quite attractive, too.

    ok
    dpm
  • (cs) in reply to Raymond Chen

    Raymond Chen:
    Hey, it's your sensor that spitting out the letters!

    <FONT face="Courier New" size=2>most excellent.</FONT>

  • (cs) in reply to Gene Wirchenko

    Gene Wirchenko:
    I was reading hex dumps in the '70s

    <FONT face="Courier New" size=2>tell me about the 70's.</FONT>

    <FONT face="Courier New" size=2>sincerely,</FONT>

    <FONT face="Courier New" size=2>emptyset</FONT>

  • George Jempty (unregistered)

    Being self-taught and un-degreed I'm sure glad I've read "Writing Great Code", it really gives me a leg up on those with TWO degrees ;)

  • (cs) in reply to Gene Wirchenko
    Gene Wirchenko:

    I do not.  In 2002, I started a diploma program to finally get formal credentials in computing.  A first semester class introduced hex.  The instructor allowed a hex cheatsheet during exams.  Yes, I mean something that said A=10, B=11, etc.



    *blinks*

    IT for the criminally stupid? Honestly, anyone who needs to be told that doesn't deserve a degree...
  • max (unregistered)

    a little modesty would not kill him .. which university did you say was he from?

  • (cs) in reply to Richard Nixon
    Richard Nixon:
    RevMike:
    voyager:

    I really WISH I could agree with you but I have emperical evidence to the contrary. There are people graduting with degrees in Software engineering in the college I work at (a reputable national institution) who would have problems programing "Hello World". I have no doubt what so ever that many of them would have no idea what 12DFE represents in HEX and would probalby have no idea of what HEX is at all.

    Bart.


    In my experience, completion of any kind of computer oriented degree does not seem to correlate with any skill in a computer oriented discipline in the real world.  Somehow the education just doesn't connect with real world success.  Many employers I know weigh practical experience much more heavily than a cs degree.  Some like to look for any science/engineering/math degree coupled with experience while others just about anything but demonstrable skill.

    The best programmer I've worked with backed into the industry.  He was getting an advanced degree in music compositon and was doing research in electronic music.  This was in the late 1970s, and he was working with early microprocessor controlled synthesizers.  He wound up writing his own operating system and music software.  After finishing his education, he wrote major parts of video games for early Apple and Atari systems, then built custom factory automation software for a major defense contractor.  He did a tremendous amount of high quality work on a music degree.


    Do you have a degree?

    Sincerely,

    Richard Nixon


    No, I don't.  I have about 2/3 of an Electrical Engineering degree, but have not completed any degrees in CS, EE or anything else.
  • (cs) in reply to dpm
    dpm:
    You desperately need to recalibrate your Cynicismometer.

    Seriously, I have no idea why you believe yourself deeply familiar with the teaching curricula of so many educational institutions,
    nor why you apparently think that all of the degrees offered are legitimate, and I especially fail to understand why you're so sure
    that they even mention hex.  I myself am sure that the focus is on object-orientedness instead.

    As for the word "extensively" . . . truly, it deserves no place in your sentence.  I think "sparingly" is more accurate.

    ok
    dpm
    You sure sound like a smart guy but you weren't smart enough to realize everybody runs a different resolution so putting hard returns in your post may work fine at 1280 width or higher but look like shite on a lesser res.
  • (cs) in reply to guenter
    Anonymous:

    Bullshit, for a myriad of reasons.



    Cornflakes, for all the right reasons.
  • (cs) in reply to Stan Rogers

    Stan Rogers:
    What the hell are they teaching in school these days, now that nearly eveybody needs to know a little bit about these confounded machines?

    Microsoft Word, Microsoft Excel, Microsoft Access, Microsoft Internet Explorer.

    But at least they get to enjoy their new gym paid for by Microsoft.

    </satire>

  • (cs) in reply to ToddH
    ToddH:
    Anonymous:
    I smell bull.


    someone asked me about sensing ammonia gas using an electrochemical sensor at or near the LEL (lower explosive limit).



    That'll smell a lot worse than bull, that's for sure.

  • JetScootr (unregistered) in reply to Maurits

    To quote Dilbert:

    One Braggart: Once I designed an entire database using just ones and zeroes....

    Other Braggart:  !!! You got use ones?  They only let me use zeroes!

  • (cs) in reply to Mung Kee
    Mung Kee:

    "1000 yottabytes is absurd. 640 yottabytes should be enough for anyone."


    That so should have been written "640 yottabytes yotta be enough for anyone."

  • (cs)

    Those little guys... d@mn... I'd like to kick his a$$ !!!

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