• (cs) in reply to rsynnott
    rsynnott:
    Gene Wirchenko:

    I do not.  In 2002, I started a diploma program to finally get formal credentials in computing.  A first semester class introduced hex.  The instructor allowed a hex cheatsheet during exams.  Yes, I mean something that said A=10, B=11, etc.



    *blinks*

    IT for the criminally stupid? Honestly, anyone who needs to be told that doesn't deserve a degree...

    No kiddings...

    1 = 1 = 0001
    2 = 2 = 0010
    3 = 3 = 0011
    4 = 4 = 0100
    5 = 5 = 0101
    6 = 6 = 0110
    7 = 7 = 0111
    8 = 8 = 1000
    9 = 9 = 1001
    10 = a = 1010
    11 = b = 1011
    12 = c = 1100
    13 = d = 1101
    14 = e = 1110
    15 = f = 1111

    I wrote that out by hand.   It doesn't take long, and I can then place it in the "show your work" section of the test, instead of wasting space on the cheat sheet for something that I can derive quickly enough at the test.  Come to think of it, I was often at a loss as to what I would put on those cheat sheets.   If you know the material it isn't a big deal to derive small tables.
  • (cs) in reply to A Chicken Passeth By

    HEX!  I Love HEX.  Who doesn't Love HEX.  The guy must be a virgin not to like HEX....I would like to have HEX 3, 4 5 times a day...but that would get in the way of the making money thing...I guess I could have HEX for money...but then there's that health thing....

    Oh, wait, you mean HEX, base 16, not S...ummm never mind....

     

    PDP/11...pssh

     

    How about PDP 8/e...or even timesharing on 10cts TTY's

  • Daveybaby (unregistered) in reply to guenter

    For those people calling "bullshit" - i dunno. Its entirely possible these days to get by knowing just the high level stuff and not have to know any of the basics. I remember about 10 years ago having to explain to a fresh CS graduate what i meant by ANDing two numbers together. I was describing to him how to write a decide driver for an embedded system, but he had never come across the concept of bitwise logical operators on his CS course. The guy was fairly competent once you got past the general n00bness, and familiar with the concept of logical AND, OR etc - but this weird new idea of how to manipulate numbers was news to him.

     

  • Daveybaby (unregistered) in reply to Daveybaby

    'Decide' driver?????? weird typo. I meant DEVICE driver.

  • (cs)

    Actually I am calling BS on this one for a variety of reasons. I went to Purdue (not the CS department, but I took the vast majority of my electives as well as a bit of my post-Grad work in that department). You cannot get through the CS program without being exposed to hex. Hell, you get hex covered heavily in one 1st semester class and you need it for two other second semester classes. You will not survive your junior year without it as there are 4 non-elective classes dealing with OS and Compiler theory that hammer hex and binary (both theory and practical).

    These are non-elective classes - you might be able to convince a department head to sign off on one or two, opting instead to take other courses. But I cannot imagine anyone in the CS heirarchy signing off on both the OS and Compiler courses. While you do not have to pass these courses with excellent grades - they are required to obtain a degree.

    I know very little about the inner workings of their Mechanical Engineering department other than they tend to get dumped on by the Golden Engineering departments (Electrical, Computer, Materials, and Aeronautical). The funny part was that while I was there the Engineering discipline that rated the highest post-Grad scores was the Industrial Engineering - and they seriously were being dumped on in terms of resources.

    Now I do not know what is taught at IUPU (Indiana University/Purdue University) or the Purdue Calumet campus - but their Northwest campus is pretty tightly leashed to the whims of the main campus.

    After having been through it myself and working others through the process I think it takes about 1-3 years to beat the arrogance of college/university out of someone (more or advanced dregees take longer) until they actually become a productive team member. By then you have knocked off the worst of the rough edges and can have a clear idea if what you find inside is worth keeping.

  • (cs)

    Ok, I'll say it...

    Halloween = Christmas

  • (cs) in reply to Jeff

    This is not surprising. It was only after I had finished my degree that I realized how much better off I was in the woods. Their programs have simply gotten too large, taught by instructors with minimal skills in English, and the tuition (now uncapped) has gone through the roof. I don't feel bad at all about my choice.

     

     

  • (cs) in reply to Bustaz Kool

    Bustaz Kool:
    Halloween = Christmas

    <FONT face="Courier New" size=2>and remember kids, november 25th is international "no spending" day.  in fact, it'll be the sixth year in a row that i don't buy anything non-essential between thanksgiving and mid-january.</FONT>

  • (cs) in reply to craptastic
    craptastic:
    Or perhaps the Purdue was like in Frank Purdue Chicken Farms....


    You mean "Perdue" chicken farms. Got a friend who works at Purdue, and she gives me crap every time I make that mistake.

  • (cs) in reply to ToddH
    ToddH:
    Anonymous:
    I smell bull.


    If only it were bull.  What I think people aren't understanding here is that the guy who poured this gem on me isn't in programming at all- he's working as a mechanical engineer, his 'minor' degree was CS, but I don't think he was really awake during the classes.  Having seen people who graduated high school without the ability to actually read and write makes me acutely aware of how easily people can pass classes they really shouldn't.

    This particular engineer never quits amazing, tho..  just a few days ago the very same engineer was standing near me when someone asked me about sensing ammonia gas using an electrochemical sensor at or near the LEL (lower explosive limit).  For NH3 gas, the LEL is right around 18%.  I replied that we didn't really have a sensor that could read that high- the highest range sensor I use is 2,000 parts per million, and we'd need a 180,000 ppm sensor for LEL.  The engineer piped in at this point, saying:

    "It's worse than that.  I ran the numbers using mass, and you'd need a 900,000 ppm sensor to really sense at LEL".

    Huh?



    Hah, that's pretty amusing. Seems like most any sensor would be capable of registering it when 90% of the surrounding environment is ammonia...Depending on the oxygen composition of the remaining 10%, that mix might even be too rich to burn, though I'm sure its corrosive as hell.

    I'm a math retard, no denying it, but even I tend to notice when my figure moves into the impossible. How could 900,000ppm be the LOWER explosive limit of anything? Even O2 will go up before 90%
  • (cs) in reply to Satanicpuppy

    Satanicpuppy:
    I'm a math retard, no denying it, but even I tend to notice when my figure moves into the impossible. How could 900,000ppm be the LOWER explosive limit of anything? Even O2 will go up before 90%

    <FONT face="Courier New" size=2>"furthermore, it's like walking into the supermarket and asking the man loading chicken meat into a half-freezer where the 200,000 ppm milk is."</FONT>

  • Anon (unregistered) in reply to kaj

    Having graduated with a CS degree less than two years ago... I'd have to agree with that.  It really is quite scary.

    To anyone in charge of hiring or interviews, converting decimal, binary, and hex numbers are a good start. I know in my interview I was asked about the difference between early and late binding... I thought that was a fairly decent question; I'm guessing 90%+ wouldn't know the difference. I suppose a question about static methods/variables would be a quick and easy weeding out process as well.

  • (cs) in reply to emptyset
    emptyset:
    <font face="Courier New" size="2">"furthermore, it's like walking into the supermarket and asking the man loading chicken meat into a half-freezer where the 200,000 ppm milk is."</font>


    One too many zeroes, I hope...
  • GUID &quot;EXPERT&quot; (unregistered) in reply to Anonymous

    This is not a GUID (or Globally Unique IDentifier).
    A GUID is an algorithmically generated number that has a statistically high probability of being unique.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GUID

    However, your question is still a good one regarding GUIDs. Not someone with a CS degree from Purdue?

  • simon m (unregistered)

    WT[A-F]?

  • (cs) in reply to Anon
    Anonymous:

    Having graduated with a CS degree less than two years ago... I'd have to agree with that.  It really is quite scary.

    To anyone in charge of hiring or interviews, converting decimal, binary, and hex numbers are a good start. I know in my interview I was asked about the difference between early and late binding... I thought that was a fairly decent question; I'm guessing 90%+ wouldn't know the difference. I suppose a question about static methods/variables would be a quick and easy weeding out process as well.

    Heh, i wouldn't have known when I started work here. That's because of one thing:

    • It's a rather specific term for describing something that I understand, but not under that name

    Drak

  • (cs)

    Unbelievable.

    There is no way that this guy would survive a real engineering job.

    Either this expert is lying about his degrees, or the university he went to is up to monkey eggs.

    Or maybe he's one of those that cruised thorough varsity, hitching a ride on other people's backs. Trust me, they exist : I know a couple of chemical engineering students in their final year who couldn't tell you the composition of air, but they still pass.

    Luckily, these poeple either don't make it as enigineers, or end up in management.

  • ChrisA (unregistered)

    Great post!  Reminds me of an old Dilbert cartoon where they're standing around bragging about their programming skills and one of the characters claimed he wrote an entire DB program using just '0's.

  • Boilerbuzz (unregistered) in reply to Ron G
    Anonymous:
    Either your young compadre is lying about his qualifications, or this story's complete balony, cooked up to to pour scorn on young turks.

    There is not a single Computer Science degree on the planet that doesn't contain numerous areas where hex is used and taught extensively. A CompSci graduate not knowing about hex is like a mathematician not knowing about addition.

    I smell bull.


    I have to agree with this.  If he went to Purdue for engineering or CS, he knows hex.
  • Anonymous Howard (unregistered) in reply to David

    Yeah right, one degree confers omnipotence, so two degrees must R0x0R!!1!!!11!

  • Gunner (unregistered) in reply to Jeff
    Anonymous:
    I now have a whole new level of respect for Purdue.  :)

    There's a reason it's called Pur-don't. :D

  • (cs) in reply to Gunner

    I always thought Perdue was French for "lost". Is that significant?

  • anon (unregistered) in reply to johnl
    johnl:
    I always thought Perdue was French for "lost". Is that significant?

    Almost as significant as the fact that you didn't read any of the thread!
  • (cs) in reply to anon

    1: Ironically, neither have you. I've already posted in this thread before, which you don't seem to have noticed.

    2: It's 4 f*cking pages long. It takes somewhere in the region of 3.2 seconds for the first page to fill up. I have quite a lot of time on my hands, not being particularly busy at work at the moment, but not quite so much time that I religiously read every comment.

    3: I assume you're trying to imply that somewhere amongst those 4 million-odd posts, someone puts in a sidenote saying "oh, purdue means lost in French". Given the above, you'll excuse me for not spotting it.

  • anon (unregistered) in reply to johnl
    johnl:
    1: Ironically, neither have you. I've already posted in this thread before, which you don't seem to have noticed. 2: It's 4 f*cking pages long. It takes somewhere in the region of 3.2 seconds for the first page to fill up. I have quite a lot of time on my hands, not being particularly busy at work at the moment, but not quite so much time that I religiously read every comment. 3: I assume you're trying to imply that somewhere amongst those 4 million-odd posts, someone puts in a sidenote saying "oh, purdue means lost in French". Given the above, you'll excuse me for not spotting it.

    Oh right, the fact that I don't really care who posts implies that I didn't read the entire thread.  Also, it's not quite 4 million, and it's certainly nothing an educated individual like you can't handle.
  • (cs) in reply to anon

    You read the entire thread? I thought I had a lot of time on my hands!

    Also, it's not interesting enough to read a whole thread. No, it's not quite 4 million (I have a tendency to exaggerate slightly), but it's a helluva lot. Add in the time taken to respond, deal with this horrible editor (which in IE7, BTW, appears as a small text box), and the time stacks up. I often just get snapshots, usually trying to track back a specific sub-thread as far as I can to understand what's being said, but a small post not directly connected to other posts will often get missed.

  • GreatWhiteDork (unregistered)

    Astoundingly stupid kid.  I actually believe this only because I tutored a senior EE student in second year Physics (No clue why he hadn't taken it yet) and was discussing power in simple circuits.  After 15 minutes of excruciating cluelessness on the complex circuitry of a space heater (Power source, resisitor.  Resistor gets hot as power dissipated/Wasted.)

    The kid finally got it, got a "Eureka" look and proudly proclaimed: "Oh, so if you just reverse the current, you'd get cooling?"

    I wish he was kidding...

     

    Consider the stupidity of the average person.  Then realize that half of the population is below that.  (Don't know who said it first.)

  • An Alumnus (unregistered) in reply to Just3Ws

    alumnists?? 

  • (cs) in reply to kaj
    Anonymous:
    A friend of mine swears that more than half the CS graduates he interviews can't tell him what 5 is in binary, even if given all the time they want and pen and paper.


    My boss has a binary clock in his office.  We have discussed using it during interviews, but haven't actually done it.  That seems like a better use of time than calculating the numer of gas staions in the county... I think that I will push that one a bit harder in the future, given the response I am seeing here today.

    BTW - octal was generally used in machines with an 18 bit architecture.  A lot of the older Univac military machines were like that, and even when they went to 32, the octal kind of stuck, even though it was no longer an even digit split.  When I was a lad in Navy Fire Controlman A School we had an entire high intenstity week on boolean math and numbering systems - and there are comp sci programs that don't teach it?  What a bunch-o-crap.
  • (cs) in reply to scpoRIch
    scpoRIch:
    Anonymous:
    A friend of mine swears that more than half the CS graduates he interviews can't tell him what 5 is in binary, even if given all the time they want and pen and paper.


    My boss has a binary clock in his office.  We have discussed using it during interviews, but haven't actually done it.  That seems like a better use of time than calculating the numer of gas staions in the county... I think that I will push that one a bit harder in the future, given the response I am seeing here today.

    BTW - octal was generally used in machines with an 18 bit architecture.  A lot of the older Univac military machines were like that, and even when they went to 32, the octal kind of stuck, even though it was no longer an even digit split.  When I was a lad in Navy Fire Controlman A School we had an entire high intenstity week on boolean math and numbering systems - and there are comp sci programs that don't teach it?  What a bunch-o-crap.


    Would you really deny someone a job for not having brushed up on their binary?  Reminds me of a company that asked questions about String Theory and Trigonometry during a phone screen a few years back.  At the time I hadn't cracked a Geometry book in over 5 years and haven't since.  I remember thinking that there were many far more practical skills they could require.  Admittedly, binary is more practical than the scenario described but still, most people don't use it every day.
  • (cs) in reply to Ron G

    A CompSci graduate not knowing about hex is like a mathematician not knowing about addition.

    Addition is only the subtraction of negative numbers, so it's overrated.

    Dear Mr President - there are too many mathematical operators these days.  Please eliminate three.

    PS.  I'm not a crackpot.

  • OverloadedOperator (unregistered) in reply to Mung Kee

    Let me count the ways ...

    This just from the top of my head. You need hex to use
    -- Special or Unicode escaped characters in Java, JavaScript, and C#
    -- HTML colors  -- yes you could use color names but you limit yourself thay way.
    -- Microsoft's famous GUIDs -- yes, you should know what they mean before using them willy-nilly.

    -- IP V6 network addresses -- that's where the internet is going
    -- Swicth values or numbers on several controlers and embedded systems
    -- and so on

    I cannot imagine any programming position in which one would not use Hex -- except maybe writing "Hello World" console applications that only use standard ASCII characters.

    Pleaaase!!!


  • (cs) in reply to Drak
    Drak:
    Anonymous:
    I know in my interview I was asked about the difference between early and late binding...

    Heh, i wouldn't have known when I started work here. That's because of one thing:

    • It's a rather specific term for describing something that I understand, but not under that name


    That can be a problem: change the terminology and obsolete an education.  What name do you understand binding under?

    Sincerely,

    Gene Wirchenko

  • (cs) in reply to Maurits

    Maurits:
    emptyset:
    <FONT face="Courier New" size=2>"furthermore, it's like walking into the supermarket and asking the man loading chicken meat into a half-freezer where the 200,000 ppm milk is."</FONT>


    One too many zeroes, I hope...

    <FONT face="Courier New" size=2>oops.  20,000 ppm milk.  :)</FONT>

  • Madge O'Reene (unregistered) in reply to Jeff

    Anonymous:


    The first deveoper I worked with on a team went to UT for an EE degree.  He once had an exam that was "create a 4 function calculator" in whatever lowlevel language he was using (I'm not an EE, so I don't remember all of the specifics).  He quickly knocked out the task and left, confident he aced it.  Only to find out that he got a 75 because his division answer didn't match the one in the textbook, though it did work, of course.  Heaven forbid that someone be able to think instead of regurgitating answers.  He tried to appeal the decision but wasn't able to.  Essentially it was the professor's class so that's the way it went.  He left that semester and graducated from U of H.

    On a personal note, he was also one heck of a programmer.

    On my degree (Neuroscience) we could choose 1/3 of the course from any faculty. Having learnt the fundaments of programming at seven, and being OK at 6502 by the age of ten, I did a lot of stuff from the computing courses. One course was in C++ but all marks were for coursework which was in the form of:

    you are given a task

    You are given some input data

    you are told what the output data should be

    You write the programme and submit it to the automated marking system which compiles and tests your code and looks through for the presence and absence of certain key words, etc. My first piece of work was rushed (hey, I had some drinking and womanising to do[8-)]) and it worked apart from one character in the output was wrong. I couldn't be arsed to fix it (I mean, how many marks can I lose?) and submitted it anyway. I got 9%. Apparently, 90% of the marks went for getting the right output and the remaining *grabs calculator* ten percent are for style. Anyway, this pissed me off something rotten so I wrote a programme (in Pascal) to generate a C++ that would give the correct output for the given input (using a lookup and storing EVERYTHNIG as consts in the code). Each week, I used my C++ code generator to generate nonsense code that would ALWAYS get me 99% [8-|]

     

    The best bit, IMO, was that style would be penalised if numbers were found in the code anyway other than in a const declaration. So I deliberately littered my code with gems such as

    seven = 9.2;

    fourteen = -3;

     

    Still, each one earned me 99% and I put in the bare minimum effort

  • Ben &quot;FooFighter&quot; (unregistered) in reply to Ian
    Anonymous:
    <font size="2"></font><font size="2">
    The post kinda reminds me of the one about the pointy-haired boss who called the programmer in to tell him his code was unreadable because there were "too many colons"      </font>


    Obviously the PHB is a brillant guru engineer and manager.
    He simply wants you to use a better language, like ruby, or python, or VB....
  • purduegrad (unregistered) in reply to MikeB

    I can understand if someone from MIT was a snob, but not Purdue, it wasn't hard getting into the school and it wasn't difficult completing a 4 year ECE program.  I'd have to say the engineering curriculums are mediocre at best.  I think you're confusing legitimate pomposity for academic insecurity.

  • (cs) in reply to Richard Nixon
    Richard Nixon:
    Gene Wirchenko:


    There are two hex characters in a byte.  I thought of using "nybble" instead of "character", but thought it might be obscure.



    Yes Gene - "nybble" is obscure because it's much more commonly called a "nibble."



    Actually, "nybble" is correct.

  • Spence (unregistered) in reply to RyGuy

    It would seem that no one with a CS degree or any technical cert' involving computers would admit not recognizing a hex' dump... 

    Is there bull here?.....  [ha!]

     

     

  • (cs) in reply to DrCode
    DrCode:
    Richard Nixon:
    Gene Wirchenko:


    There are two hex characters in a byte.  I thought of using "nybble" instead of "character", but thought it might be obscure.



    Yes Gene - "nybble" is obscure because it's much more commonly called a "nibble."



    Actually, "nybble" is correct.



    "DrCode" (if that is your real name), where in my statement did I say that nybble was incorrect? Answer: I didn't. But you're a moron and can't read for comprehension so let me shove it down your throat. I said that the more common spelling of that word is "nibble." Shall I give you a citation?

    How about wikipedia? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nybble
    [A nibble (or less commonly, nybble) is the...]

    Okay tough guy? Gene was misinformed to believe that the concept of a nibble is obscure; his spelling, on the other hand, is obscure.

    Don't be so stupid in the future.

    Sincerely,

    Richard Nixon
  • Warfreak2 (unregistered) in reply to ToddH
    ToddH:
    This particular engineer never quits amazing, tho..  just a few days ago the very same engineer was standing near me when someone asked me about sensing ammonia gas using an electrochemical sensor at or near the LEL (lower explosive limit).  For NH3 gas, the LEL is right around 18%.  I replied that we didn't really have a sensor that could read that high- the highest range sensor I use is 2,000 parts per million, and we'd need a 180,000 ppm sensor for LEL.  The engineer piped in at this point, saying:

    "It's worse than that.  I ran the numbers using mass, and you'd need a 900,000 ppm sensor to really sense at LEL".

    Huh?

    At least he didn't recommend connecting 90 of the 2,000 ppm sensors together... as for his 90% calculation, he probably tried to take the relative density of NH3 and air into account, getting confused over proportion of mass and proportion of number of molecules.
  • Joe Mama (unregistered) in reply to Richard Nixon

    Richard Nixon:

    Don't be so stupid in the future.

    Sincerely,

    Richard Nixon

     

    You need to change your sig to "DICK" Nixon.  [6]

  • Warfreak2 (unregistered) in reply to GreatWhiteDork
    Anonymous:
    Consider the stupidity of the average person.  Then realize that half of the population is below that.

    Only if the distribution of stupidity isn't skewed. You meant median... ;-P
  • Sigi (unregistered)

    This hurts.

    I've once met a year 3 CS student who hadn't even heard of a Turing Machine.

  • Schmitty (unregistered) in reply to Mung Kee

    "Get rid of Hexadecimal? You can't get rid of it. It's just the output of the data. You don't have to convert the data to it, but you certainly can't "get rid of it"[:P]

  • (cs) in reply to Schmitty
    Anonymous:

    "Get rid of Hexadecimal? You can't get rid of it. It's just the output of the data. You don't have to convert the data to it, but you certainly can't "get rid of it"[:P]


    Sure you could. You could make conversion to hex illegal, ban all books that explain it and throw people who talk about it in prison or execute them.

    You'd have to be running a government, preferably a theocracy, to try and implement that, but it wouldn't be extraordinary - similar things have been done and are being done right now.

  • (cs) in reply to Richard Nixon

    Richard Nixon:
    Okay tough guy? Gene was misinformed to believe that the concept of a nibble is obscure; his spelling, on the other hand, is obscure.

    <FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Hogen, a Chinese Zen teacher, lived alone in a small temple in the country. One day four traveling monks appeared and asked if they might make a fire in his yard to warm themselves. </FONT>

    <FONT face="Courier New" size=2>While they were building the fire, Hogen heard them arguing about subjectivity and objectivity. He joined them and said: "There is a big stone. Do you consider it to be inside or outside your mind?" </FONT>

    <FONT face="Courier New" size=2>One of the monks replied: "From the Buddhist viewpoint everything is an objectification of mind, so I would say that the stone is inside my mind." </FONT>

    <FONT face="Courier New" size=2>"Your head must feel very heavy," observed Hogen, "if you are carrying around a stone like that in your mind."</FONT>

  • (cs) in reply to brazzy

    brazzy:
    You'd have to be running a government, preferably a theocracy, to try and implement that, but it wouldn't be extraordinary - similar things have been done and are being done right now.

    <FONT face="Courier New" size=2>i'll see you in the trenches / caching dope dreams and scoring wenches / the boxes of the mind flexing parliaments and wrenches / the man in the oversoul with its cross-eyed stenches</FONT>

    <FONT face="Courier New" size=2>stitch, snitch - a fire in the pylon! / the russian mob is after your nylons! / snap - the bretheren of the 8-ball / i left the crabcake in the west stall</FONT>

    <FONT face="Courier New" size=2>yo - get that clock off your ass / i need time for silly seal's backlash / slash!  katana through the shelf! / cuttin' holes in you like keebler elves</FONT>

  • Rene (unregistered)

    Hey Todd!

    That's scary...

    I went to college in the mid-1990's to study electronics and specialized in Communications.

    We had an introduction to microcomputers and had to learn to write short programs in Assembly Language.  I still remember having to convert lots of things to Hexadecimal and Octogonal number systems.

    The biggest life lesson this kid needs to learn is that none of us knows Everything.  His ego appears to be a little oversized.  Had a few of those sitting next to me while I was in college.

    One of my instructors at the end of it all said, "if you take away anything from these past few years, it should be that you should now be able to know how to look to find the answers to whatever problems you come across".  And search I did in the first few years since I had no Senior Engineer to guide me in my work.  Libraries, fellow technicians, the Internet, I looked everywhere for information to help me find solutions to technical problems.

    Everyone around us teaches us something.

    Hopefully he'll pick up on that soon.

    Good Luck!

  • CaptMorgan (unregistered) in reply to Rene

    Did it cross anyone's mind (inlcuding the original poster) that the purdue kid could have been screwing with him?  I am a "Twenty-Something" working iwth guys my dad's age and i screw with them all the time...they seem to lack sarcasm.

    I think the OP has been had.  And if i was the engineer and saw this post I would probably die laughing.:D

Leave a comment on “Stand Back, I'm Educated! ”

Log In or post as a guest

Replying to comment #:

Log Out

« Return to Article