The Daily WTF: Curious Perversions in Information Technology

2006-03-23 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
Anonymous:
In every case I've read about of people being burned by outsourcing, it's due to failure to verify results. Unfortunately, in order to verify results, you can't just pretend not to need technical people. Every company that delivers a software product needs QA even if they didn't write it. Drop quality at your own peril...

Funny, when I have a company provide a product to me for a price, I expect them to do their own quality checking. Maybe I'm strange that way, that when I arrange to buy something I expect what's delivered to have some bearing to what I bought.

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In most cases, I agree with you. However, there are certain situations where environmental differences affect the product. If you deal with many Fortune 500 companies especially pharmaceuticals, they are mandated either by law or corporate policy to validate systems in their environment.

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2006-03-23 Reply Admin

The issue clearly stands that cost savings associated with outsourcing probably present a false economy in the long run, having seen outsourcing first hand I can assure you that the further away the supplier is less communication can happen about issues. In-house sometimes doesn't work because of man power costing and on-going commitment but also 'other side of the world' is tricky because as its not your code you really should check it before you put it as part of your brand! Out-source? Perhaps. Check locally? Definately.

With the cost/race issue it can't be forgotten that many other countries have a lower cost of living. I make do on a salary over three times that of my girlfriend in another European country and she has a nicer flat than me! Additionally taking the south Asian countries as an example, they may not have open education for all but their educational standards are often higher than our delightful western schools. This is mainly because they instil a culture which values intelligence, respect and education. As a teacher myself I can tell you theres a fair bit of that lacking here.

2006-03-23 Reply Admin

LaurieF:
Anonymous:
You have to ask yourself... why are developers cheaper offshore? Is it because they are so gosh darned clever and can write better code faster due to their massive brains? Is there educational system decades ahead of the the one in the USA? Does time move slower there, thus giving them more time compared to us to get things done?

No, it's because they live in crappy countries that have none of the benefits that workers in the USA have labored hard to achieve. You know, running water, sewage systems, child labor laws, medical care, roads and highways, etc. The real WTF is that U.S. businesses think a group of people that are too stupid to figure out how to have these things in their own countries are going to be brillant at writing software.

Welcome to the race to the bottom, USA workers will eventually be able to compete with the cheaper offshore workers once they give up clean drinking water, working toilets, health care and health benefits, and we put our children to work is sweatshops, and let our roads fall into disrepair. Yes, then we will finally have made the smart choice in order to compete with these clever offshore programmers. WTF!

Ignorant bigot. The bigotry is bad enough, but the ignorance is what sticks out like dog's balls. It's my bet that you've never left your country, and know nothing of other countries. You deserve everyone's absolute contempt.

I'm sorry I am not living in your perfect world where everyone is equal, nobody suffers, and everyone lives a happy life. How dare you call me a bigot merely for pointing out the inequities of the world. It is the rich business owners that take advantage of these inequities, rape profits from them, and in many ways, do everything they can to perpetuate them.

How dare you judge someone as ignorant just because they have not left their own country. Are you to say the same thing to the millions of poor people in the world? That they are ignorant because they can't afford the expensive plane ticket you can, to take holiday at some fancy tourist resort?

If you want to take the moral high ground, perhaps you should start advocating more equitable equal pay to all workers in the world, instead of exploitation. I am pointing out the hard facts, in an attempt to show some of the reasons those of wealthier nations believe that it is a gift to have impoverished countries around for cheap labor.

Give all the contempt you want, I'm describing reality, and it isn't pretty, and is quite bigoted. That does not make me such, however.

2006-03-23 Reply Admin

Where I work, the employer has a long history of only hiring recent graduates for programming positions. Just because you have finished a degree does not mean you can work on a large project with no supervision. Me, I asked for help when I needed it, and learnt more about databases in my first 2 weeks that I picked up in my degree.

The problem as I see it with a green programmer, is they tend to do exactly what they are told. Most of the projects I've worked on didn't have great specs. Either there wasn't enough specific detail, or the design was not workable with the tools being used.

GoatCheez · 2006-03-23 Reply Admin

You get what you pay for.

2006-03-23 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
You have to ask yourself... why are developers cheaper offshore? Is it because they are so gosh darned clever and can write better code faster due to their massive brains?

You have to ask yourself why managers outsource overseas. The reason is money. They forget about quality.

At a major banking equipment company I worked for work was insourced to the Phillipines. Did they hire the best people they could at a bargain price? No!

They hired the cheapest monkeys they could find and had results to match.

triso · 2006-03-23 Reply Admin

Anonymous:

Not to mention Q/A
was this even looked at?
like fuck you could Ever have had two people use the system at the same time..
considering this to be designed for corporate scale..
seems pretty stupid Q/A did not attempt a multi use pattern in thier test's.

<font size="5">T</font>hat would mean the offshore corp. would have to hire a second tester and that would affect the bottom line in a negative direction. BINGO!\\

triso · 2006-03-23 Reply Admin

jackass:
As much as I'm all for keeping jobs here, offshoring is not the problem. What ever happened to "if it isn't broke dont' fix it."

<font size="5">D</font>epends on your defintion of broke. Often it is, "The mainframe/legacy system is on its last legs."

2006-03-23 Reply Admin

It's so easy for people like LaurieF to throw around terms like "bigot" and "ignorant". As soon as someone is labelled as such, they are in an indefensible position. LaurieF, please point out the sections in the quoted post where the poster has demonstrated any of these qualities? Please be specific, because allegations like that can harm a persons reputation. Though i'm guessing that doesn't concern you. The truly ignorant are those who throw insults at others without considering their point of view.

The poster points out the offshore development is cheaper: true.

The poster points out that the workers in these countries do not have the same worker benefits, conditions or wages as those in many western nations (such as the USA): true.

The poster points outs that the code produced from these countries isn't phenonemally better becuase of superior education or more lax timeframes: also true.

I'm still looking for the bigotry?

One last question; how does never having left your own country makes you automatically ignorant of all others? I wonder if the billions of people worldwide who have never left their region, let alone their country, would agree with you?

jsmith · 2006-03-23 Reply Admin

Anonymous:

It's so easy for people like LaurieF to throw around terms like "bigot" and "ignorant". As soon as someone is labelled as such, they are in an indefensible position. LaurieF, please point out the sections in the quoted post where the poster has demonstrated any of these qualities? Please be specific, because allegations like that can harm a persons reputation. Though i'm guessing that doesn't concern you. The truly ignorant are those who throw insults at others without considering their point of view.

The poster points out the offshore development is cheaper: true.

The poster points out that the workers in these countries do not have the same worker benefits, conditions or wages as those in many western nations (such as the USA): true.

The poster points outs that the code produced from these countries isn't phenonemally better becuase of superior education or more lax timeframes: also true.

I'm still looking for the bigotry?

One last question; how does never having left your own country makes you automatically ignorant of all others? I wonder if the billions of people worldwide who have never left their region, let alone their country, would agree with you?

I'm not siding with antbody, but you did overlook this gem:

The real WTF is that U.S. businesses think a group of people that are too stupid to figure out how to have these things in their own countries are going to be brillant at writing software.

I'm almost certain that this is what LaurieF was referring to. I notice that you turned the highlighted phrase into "lack of superior education".

2006-03-23 Reply Admin

Anonymous:

No, it's because they live in crappy countries that have none of the benefits that workers in the USA have labored hard to achieve. You know, running water, sewage systems, child labor laws, medical care, roads and highways, etc.

You really think that outside the US ("offshore") there is no running water? Sewage systems? Roads? I that's what you mean, you really are ignorant.

2006-03-23 Reply Admin

jsmith:

I'm not siding with antbody, but you did overlook this gem:
The real WTF is that U.S. businesses think a group of people that are too stupid to figure out how to have these things in their own countries are going to be brillant at writing software.

I'm almost certain that this is what LaurieF was referring to. I notice that you turned the highlighted phrase into "lack of superior education".

I wasn't directly trying to call anyone stupid. I was just trying to make the point that it could seem contradictory to expect great intelligence in software from those in extremely poor, mismanaged countries. I do not think, however, that I have shown hatred or intolerance, as the word 'bigot' would imply. Sorry for my gem, but I was just trying to use word contrast to make a point, not give an absolute judgement of how intellgent anyone is. In retrospect, I wish I had stated my point differently. So some of the WTF is my post. My apologies.

2006-03-23 Reply Admin

There is one which suits well, allready:
"Stupidity Considered Harmful"

2006-03-23 Reply Admin

LaurieF:
Anonymous:
You have to ask yourself... why are developers cheaper offshore? Is it because they are so gosh darned clever and can write better code faster due to their massive brains? Is there educational system decades ahead of the the one in the USA? Does time move slower there, thus giving them more time compared to us to get things done?

No, it's because they live in crappy countries that have none of the benefits that workers in the USA have labored hard to achieve. You know, running water, sewage systems, child labor laws, medical care, roads and highways, etc. The real WTF is that U.S. businesses think a group of people that are too stupid to figure out how to have these things in their own countries are going to be brillant at writing software.

Welcome to the race to the bottom, USA workers will eventually be able to compete with the cheaper offshore workers once they give up clean drinking water, working toilets, health care and health benefits, and we put our children to work is sweatshops, and let our roads fall into disrepair. Yes, then we will finally have made the smart choice in order to compete with these clever offshore programmers. WTF!

Ignorant bigot. The bigotry is bad enough, but the ignorance is what sticks out like dog's balls. It's my bet that you've never left your country, and know nothing of other countries. You deserve everyone's absolute contempt.

Yes it is a bit of a harsh image..On another note the US has huge ammounts of impoverished areas that u would not want to walk through at night.

+language barriers can be a pain..:(

But there is some truth in whats quoted for some countries.

The Main Problem is: the Rich Liven on the backs of the poor.

ammoQ · 2006-03-23 Reply Admin

Anonymous:

No, it's because they live in crappy countries that have none of the benefits that workers in the USA have labored hard to achieve. You know, running water, sewage systems, child labor laws, medical care, roads and highways, etc. The real WTF is that U.S. businesses think a group of people that are too stupid to figure out how to have these things in their own countries are going to be brillant at writing software.

Welcome to the race to the bottom, USA workers will eventually be able to compete with the cheaper offshore workers once they give up clean drinking water, working toilets, health care and health benefits, and we put our children to work is sweatshops, and let our roads fall into disrepair. Yes, then we will finally have made the smart choice in order to compete with these clever offshore programmers. WTF!

After several visits to Poland, Slovakia and Czechia, I can assure you that in all three countries the following exist:

running water
sewage systems
child labor laws
medical care
roads and highways

Nonetheless, software development is a lot cheaper there than e.g. in Austria where I live.

2006-03-23 Reply Admin

Wait, am I the only one stupid here? Laugh at me, if you will, but I don't understand the problem.

No. Not stupid, maybe you're the only one reading this forum to actually learn something rather than to be entertained :-)

The trouble with multi-threading programming is you don't know when one thread is going to be stooped and another one started: imagine two requests who get concurrently executed through these steps:

Fetch user ID from session and store it in a static variable "foo"
Update something and log the value in "foo" as the author of the update

One path of execution (and it's the most probable to be follow while testing) is:

Thread 1: operation 1 Thread 1: operation 2 Thread 2: operation 1 Thread 2: operation 2

But another one (and this is guaranteed to happen in production and at the worst time possible) is

Thread 1: operation 1 Thread 2: operation 1 Thread 1: operation 2 Thread 2: operation 2

Obviously in this second case the user whose request is handled by Thread 2 will appear as the author of both his update and the one by Thread 1's user.

It's not strictly a question of "static" being used in the variable declaration: it's a problem you could easily get without "static", provided both thread share the variable.

2006-03-23 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
Ah, right. So no onshore developers make mistakes...

I've seen virtually the same problem with software developed right here in the good old US of A.

2006-03-23 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
this is so made up! if those elite on-shore developers were so damn good, why was the app rewritten in the first place?

For the same reasons the application in a previous WTF was rewritten because it wasn't "enterprise" enough.

LaurieF · 2006-03-23 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
jsmith:

I'm not siding with antbody, but you did overlook this gem:
The real WTF is that U.S. businesses think a group of people that are too stupid to figure out how to have these things in their own countries are going to be brillant at writing software.

I'm almost certain that this is what LaurieF was referring to. I notice that you turned the highlighted phrase into "lack of superior education".

I wasn't directly trying to call anyone stupid. I was just trying to make the point that it could seem contradictory to expect great intelligence in software from those in extremely poor, mismanaged countries. I do not think, however, that I have shown hatred or intolerance, as the word 'bigot' would imply. Sorry for my gem, but I was just trying to use word contrast to make a point, not give an absolute judgement of how intellgent anyone is. In retrospect, I wish I had stated my point differently. So some of the WTF is my post. My apologies.

Your original post was implying, and I'm not drawing too long a bow here, that all countries where outsourcing is done are impoverished without all these things that you claim that the US has in abundance and high quality. I live in a country with all of these things. Our GDP is considerably lower than the US's; nevertheless we maintain free hospital care for all, free medical attention for all children, free education, free roads and a thriving IT sector (including outsourcing to other countries - my own company does some). It's not a boast, it's not perfect here, but the US is not the paragon of all virtue. Hence my spikey claim of ignorance.

Let's assume for the sake of the argument that the outsourcing was done in India, as much IT outsourcing is. Let's assume further that it was done in Bangalore, the major centre of IT in India. Arguably India has the largest middle-class in the world, with the per-capita income in Bangalore around $US1,100. This may seem laughably low, but related to the cost of living it's not bad at all.

I have worked with code programmed in Bangalore, and with programmers from that city, and generally the quality is not bad at all. However as with all things, trust but verify. If the outsourced code in Steve's case had gone through proper stress-testing and quality control, this problem could and should have been uncovered and fixed long before.

connected · 2006-03-23 Reply Admin

The thing is, if you're sending work to be done in a place where it's cheaper due to overpopulation-related labor abundance, consider this: the amount of competent people is in a given population is proportional to it's size and (usually) quite small; ergo, if you find an army of a billion worker drones, what it really means is that now you have a helluva lot of people that can't get the job done. [I]

Wondrous shall be the day when management comes to terms with the truth...

ammoQ · 2006-03-23 Reply Admin

connected:
The thing is, if you're sending work to be done in a place where it's cheaper due to overpopulation-related labor abundance, consider this: the amount of competent people is in a given population is proportional to it's size and (usually) quite small; ergo, if you find an army of a billion worker drones, what it really means is that now you have a helluva lot of people that can't get the job done. [I]

Wondrous shall be the day when management comes to terms with the truth...

Imagine for a moment that for some reason the exchange rate for the USD fell to, say, 0.35 EUR. That would make work in the US as cheap as work in Slovakia from the Western European point of view. Would it change anything in the competence of the US workers? Would it change a lot in the life quality of US workers, except good imported from Europe becoming much more expensive?

2006-03-23 Reply Admin

Came across some wtf static code last year. My contract expired before I saw the fallout. I wasn't familiar with the project though, maybe they only had one customer?

class Customer { static string CustomerName{etc} static string CustomerAddress{etc} }

vstas · 2006-03-23 Reply Admin

OK, I'm the one who asked "if I'm the only one stupid here" :). I finally decided to create an account. Turns out, I am (never ashamed to admit that).

First, thanks a lot everyone for detailed responses. Unfortunately, I didn't formulate the question well enough. I do know what race condition is, I am familiar with the dangers of static variables and I've done quite a bit of multi-threaded programming myself. I guess I should've explained that before asking the question.

However, I was under impression that every ASP.NET request in IIS is handled either in a separate AppDomain or in a separate process. Quite honestly, that's one big eye-opener. Wow.

Special thanks to Colin McGuigan for providing a working example.

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2006-03-23 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
Anonymous:
Anonymous:
this is so made up! if those elite on-shore developers were so damn good, why was the app rewritten in the first place? i work for an outsourcing company now (used to work for a big german software vendor) and i know for sure the quality of software created at my current company is much much better. my company is selling code to people that can easily see its quality, while my previous employers sell their products to end clients, who are more influenced by marketing than by the software quality in their decision. looks like some people lost their jobs to cheaper, more effective outsourcing and make up stories like this one because of anger and frustration

You have to ask yourself... why are developers cheaper offshore? Is it because they are so gosh darned clever and can write better code faster due to their massive brains? Is there educational system decades ahead of the the one in the USA? Does time move slower there, thus giving them more time compared to us to get things done?

No, it's because they live in crappy countries that have none of the benefits that workers in the USA have labored hard to achieve. You know, running water, sewage systems, child labor laws, medical care, roads and highways, etc. The real WTF is that U.S. businesses think a group of people that are too stupid to figure out how to have these things in their own countries are going to be brillant at writing software.

Welcome to the race to the bottom, USA workers will eventually be able to compete with the cheaper offshore workers once they give up clean drinking water, working toilets, health care and health benefits, and we put our children to work is sweatshops, and let our roads fall into disrepair. Yes, then we will finally have made the smart choice in order to compete with these clever offshore programmers. WTF!

Second this...

This is another case of supporting bad human rights and should be illegal... If your gonna outsource lets not have double standards.
Pay them and treat them like someone from your country.

Capitalism is the path of evil.

Sigh.   I'm seeing a lot of comments here that are based on ignorance (not to be confused with stupidity).

====="The real WTF is that U.S. businesses think a group of people that are too stupid to figure out how to have these things in their own countries are going to be brillant at writing software."

That's a pretty dumb statement.

I'm sure there a lot of brilliant software writers in the USA. . . however, the empowered elite still managed to skew things so that thousands of Americans are paying with their lives for the decisions made by those "empowered".

====="health care and health benefits,"

The health care they enjoy is pretty much identical to what is "enjoyed" in the USA. If you can affort it, you get it.

=====" Capitalism is the path of evil."

as opposed to. . .

My adage as been, "If you really think you know what you're doing, go and do it for yourself".    I did that 15 years ago.

Happily, all my business comes from referrals. Good thing.   My résumé is on a 5-1/4'' floppy, in Wordstar.

Now, can someone tell me what, in this context "Static" really means?

2006-03-23 Reply Admin

LaurieF:
Anonymous:
You have to ask yourself... why are developers cheaper offshore? Is it because they are so gosh darned clever and can write better code faster due to their massive brains? Is there educational system decades ahead of the the one in the USA? Does time move slower there, thus giving them more time compared to us to get things done?

No, it's because they live in crappy countries that have none of the benefits that workers in the USA have labored hard to achieve. You know, running water, sewage systems, child labor laws, medical care, roads and highways, etc. The real WTF is that U.S. businesses think a group of people that are too stupid to figure out how to have these things in their own countries are going to be brillant at writing software.

Welcome to the race to the bottom, USA workers will eventually be able to compete with the cheaper offshore workers once they give up clean drinking water, working toilets, health care and health benefits, and we put our children to work is sweatshops, and let our roads fall into disrepair. Yes, then we will finally have made the smart choice in order to compete with these clever offshore programmers. WTF!

Ignorant bigot. The bigotry is bad enough, but the ignorance is what sticks out like dog's balls. It's my bet that you've never left your country, and know nothing of other countries. You deserve everyone's absolute contempt.

If I had gotten this far into the comments, I would have responded earlier.

Bang on, LaurieF !!!

2006-03-23 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
LaurieF:
Anonymous:
You have to ask yourself... why are developers cheaper offshore? Is it because they are so gosh darned clever and can write better code faster due to their massive brains? Is there educational system decades ahead of the the one in the USA? Does time move slower there, thus giving them more time compared to us to get things done?

No, it's because they live in crappy countries that have none of the benefits that workers in the USA have labored hard to achieve. You know, running water, sewage systems, child labor laws, medical care, roads and highways, etc. The real WTF is that U.S. businesses think a group of people that are too stupid to figure out how to have these things in their own countries are going to be brillant at writing software.

Welcome to the race to the bottom, USA workers will eventually be able to compete with the cheaper offshore workers once they give up clean drinking water, working toilets, health care and health benefits, and we put our children to work is sweatshops, and let our roads fall into disrepair. Yes, then we will finally have made the smart choice in order to compete with these clever offshore programmers. WTF!

Ignorant bigot. The bigotry is bad enough, but the ignorance is what sticks out like dog's balls. It's my bet that you've never left your country, and know nothing of other countries. You deserve everyone's absolute contempt.

I'm sorry I am not living in your perfect world where everyone is equal, nobody suffers, and everyone lives a happy life. How dare you call me a bigot merely for pointing out the inequities of the world. It is the rich business owners that take advantage of these inequities, rape profits from them, and in many ways, do everything they can to perpetuate them.

How dare you judge someone as ignorant just because they have not left their own country. Are you to say the same thing to the millions of poor people in the world? That they are ignorant because they can't afford the expensive plane ticket you can, to take holiday at some fancy tourist resort?

If you want to take the moral high ground, perhaps you should start advocating more equitable equal pay to all workers in the world, instead of exploitation. I am pointing out the hard facts, in an attempt to show some of the reasons those of wealthier nations believe that it is a gift to have impoverished countries around for cheap labor.

Give all the contempt you want, I'm describing reality, and it isn't pretty, and is quite bigoted. That does not make me such, however.

OK. here's a pop quiz, re ignorance.

Who's the current Prime Minister of Canada.
Who did he defeat?
Who preceded the defeated prime minister.

For, example, I know Georgie is Prez. He defeated John Kerry. Before that, he defeated Al Gore. Al Gore was Bill Clinton's VP. Bill Clinton defeated George Bush Senior.

Now, I'm not asking you to expose yourself to the world as a for-real-ignorant bigot. But, if you can, without googling, answer my questions off the top of your head, you just might not be "ignorant". And remember, I don't equate ignorance with stupidity. But it has been my experience, as a traveller in the formerly mighthy US of A, that getting information beyond the standings in March Madness is almost impossible in the media. That Oprah is on an up or a down cycle is probably readilly available. . .

heh heh. . . watch oprah in time lapse. . . you gain understanding into the workings of a lung. . .

2006-03-23 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
Anonymous:
You have to ask yourself... why are developers cheaper offshore? Is it because they are so gosh darned clever and can write better code faster due to their massive brains?

You have to ask yourself why managers outsource overseas. The reason is money. They forget about quality.

At a major banking equipment company I worked for work was insourced to the Phillipines. Did they hire the best people they could at a bargain price? No!

They hired the cheapest monkeys they could find and had results to match.

MBA's are taught to look to the next quarter.

As a human being, I'd prefer to look to the well being of my great^n grand-children.

2006-03-23 Reply Admin

So, the real WTF is that the field wasn't declared 'final', right?

2006-03-23 Reply Admin

Oh... I was bitten by this one long time ago when I'm a newbie to .NET application. Not knowing about the effect of "static" in web objects.

The bug is not discovered when I'm working alone, but was found out when internal testing. The stress test reveiled a racing-condition might have happened when testing 2 newly added pages. Then with remote debugging we found the origion of the problem.

Rank Amateur · 2006-03-23 Reply Admin

rob_squared:
reed:
The primary problem here is the disconnect between support and development.

You have just summed up one of the most, if not the most, important disconnect in a company like this. The company I worked for is going to release a new product shortly as an upgrade to the current product. The thing is, they asked support for suggestions, then completely ignored them. Our software deals with selecting files. And we commonly tell users to use the search function, which is now missing. Though everyone in support has protested, development simply says its too late to change anything, maybe they'll do it in version 9. At this company it usually takes a year or 2 to go a whole version number. A year of headaches, I just can't wait to start.

Too often management sees support as just something you have to have to keep those pesky users from rioting. (e.g., http://www.asktog.com/columns/053CallCenters.html)

--RA

mjonhanson · 2006-03-24 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
this is so made up! if those elite on-shore developers were so damn good, why was the app rewritten in the first place? i work for an outsourcing company now (used to work for a big german software vendor) and i know for sure the quality of software created at my current company is much much better. my company is selling code to people that can easily see its quality, while my previous employers sell their products to end clients, who are more influenced by marketing than by the software quality in their decision. looks like some people lost their jobs to cheaper, more effective outsourcing and make up stories like this one because of anger and frustration

Is it just me, or is the lack of capitalization and punctuation a warning about what this person's code looks like? Probably works great, but try to read or maintain it. That's what people are saying about off-shoring, not that the people are bad or stupid, just that the system is ripe for abuse. If its so cheap to just re-write the whole application, what incentive is there to do it in a way that someone can maintain?

2006-03-24 Reply Admin

"The real WTF is that U.S. businesses think a group of people that are too stupid to figure out how to have these things in their own countries are going to be brillant at writing software."

It's pretty clear from the above statement that you think everyone who lives in poverty is stupid. That makes you a bigot. You're on the record; how can you deny it?

The funny part is that you call others stupid when you can't spell and confuse "their" with "they're". Buy a dictionary, moron.

mcrbids · 2006-03-24 Reply Admin

Another WTF here is that the data being saved had no database constraints or anything to check the validity of the link to the customer account.

If there was a constraint in a database that tied the document to a specify account id, and that was checked against the login/authentication, then the mistaken save would be rejected by a database foreign key mismatch!

In cases where data integrity is important, (implied by the "millions of dollars" mentioned in TFA) constraints should be used anywhere and everywhere you can possibly get them to work...

But honestly, I much prefer PHP's "share nothing" approach, where you can declare statics to your heart's content, with impunity... It's nice knowing that each process starts in its own clean memory space, avoiding so many potential race conditions...

felix · 2006-03-24 Reply Admin

jsmith:
I'm not siding with antbody, but you did overlook this gem:

The real WTF is that U.S. businesses think a group of people that are too stupid to figure out how to have these things in their own countries are going to be brillant at writing software.

I'm almost certain that this is what LaurieF was referring to. I notice that you turned the highlighted phrase into "lack of superior education".

So did I (overlook the "gem"). Guess what, I don't find it offensive. You see, we do have running water, sewers and medical care over here, but lots of people can't afford them. We do have roads. Yeah sure. Just bring your all-terrain car, or else lots of money for constant repairs. One might say it's not our fault. Come on. Whose fault is it that we have one of the most corrupt governments in the world?

As for the proffessional issues, we do have (reputedly) world-class education, but it's completely focused on theory. Most people right out of university have no idea how to do real work, though they can learn very fast. Oh and just try to explain the typical IT worker the importance of standards. He or she will think you're an alien...

While not everything's black and white, I'd say things are rather dark grey in poor(er) countries, and there are good reasons for that. Someday I hope to work for a western company just so I can see the differences for myself.

Got to go. Cheer up, everyone!

sKp · 2006-03-24 Reply Admin

Anonymous:

...Is there educational system decades ahead of the the one in the USA?...
later:
...I will assume anyone of average intelligence can get an IT degree...

No. You need average intelligence to get through high school. Judging by your use of english (THERE educational system?), and your charming attempts at reasoning, you clearly did not.

2006-03-24 Reply Admin

wow. just wow.
truely a brilliant enterprise :D

2006-03-24 Reply Admin

Looks like someone lost hist SHIFT key, too.

foxyshadis · 2006-03-24 Reply Admin

GoatCheez:
You get what you pay for.

In a post-mortem, this will come up repeatedly. Everyone in the room will nod their heads, and authorize a $5 million contract to redesign from scratch with a contractor with a great sales pitch. A contractor that, if they only asked around, has a history of leaving unsatisfied clients with broken software way over budget and overdue.

They'll proceed to fire the current dev/support staff for not finding the old bug fast enough, and hire $150/hr "dot-com pros" to do QA.

This is why pithy aphorisms suck. ;_;

2006-03-24 Reply Admin

reed:
The primary problem here is the disconnect between support and development. Obviously there was something preventing the support staff from insisting that these things are bugs and that the developers (whether offshore or not) fix them. Culture, management, being rewarded for getting rid of support tickets rather than actually resolving them, could have been any of these things.

At my company, because it's so small, developers are part of the support. We know about all the support requests and
when it's something that the support guys don't know, (e.g. unusual behavior because of a bug) we have to answer, and if it's a bug, fix it right away so we can get the fix to the customer. This is pretty motivating to fix bugs, and also always think about documentation and usability and preventing future support inquiries on things.

Sorry if I am stepping somebodies toes, but IMHO developers should work at least one week a year in the support. Some will see it a vacation, others will regard it as doing time, but it teach your who your customers are.

Thomas

bullestock · 2006-03-24 Reply Admin

Volmarias:
I say this, going in, that this post WILL be screwed up. The forum software night guarantees it.

Ah, those starry forum software nights.

tufty · 2006-03-24 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
To end this quarrel, my prediction is that this whole outsourcing stuff will be a second dot.com bubble - and it's gonna burst. Reason? People get sucked into working in IT even though they have nothing in common with it - this results in crappy code, failed projects, lost money etc. See the pattern?

I tend to agree. I've just been involved in re-insourcing (sort of, I work remotely, as do my colleagues, but we are in Europe and are accountable for what we do) a project that was outsourced. It was still a failure (The main reason being that it was a project that would never have sold, and was being pushed by a couple of marketing types who happen to run the company and who simply wouldn't listen to sense) but technically it worked. Which is more than can be said for the code we got back from the outsource company.

Hire direct. It's the only way to be sure.

Oh, and as for the WTF, I saw exactly the same behviour, caused by a similar error, back in 1988 when I was working in PL/1 CICS for a fairly major wine seller in the UK. Caused all sorts of funniness with the orders, that did. Then again, when working for a major financial institution (C/Unix), and then again with another financial institution (C++/Unix) and then again with a telecoms company who were wondering why occasionally, account setup got all snarled up (C++, Unix, again).

Race conditions are not terribly uncommon.

Simon

tufty · 2006-03-24 Reply Admin

TJ:
Anonymous:
The real WTF is that U.S. businesses think a group of people that are too stupid to figure out how to have these things in their own countries are going to be brillant at writing software.

It's pretty clear from the above statement that you think everyone who lives in poverty is stupid. That makes you a bigot. You're on the record; how can you deny it?

The funny part is that you call others stupid when you can't spell and confuse "their" with "they're". Buy a dictionary, moron.

I'll agree with the bigoted bit. Although I dislike bigots, you are somewhat off the mark with the spelling and grammar flames, though. Yes, the OP did make grammatical errors in his original post, the bit you quoted was actually more or less correctly formulated. The bit I would poke fun at, in fact is the "... group of people that are ..." which should be "... group of people who are ...", or possibly breaking up the sentence with some punctuation. A more readable formulation might be something like this (no agreement with the sentiment implied)

The real WTF is that U.S. businesses think a group of people, although too stupid to figure out how to have these things in their own countries, are going to be brillant at writing software.

Oh, and the "brillant" pissmelling is a running (and not terribly funny) joke.

For reference:

"Their" - belonging to
"They're" - They are

I don't know about you, but I learned that at age 7 or so; despite that being some considerable time ago, it seems to have stuck. I assume you're getting confused about the use of apostrophes to indicate ownership, I'd suggest you buy a book on grammar before calling people morons.

Simon

2006-03-24 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
Anonymous:
this is so made up! if those elite on-shore developers were so damn good, why was the app rewritten in the first place? i work for an outsourcing company now (used to work for a big german software vendor) and i know for sure the quality of software created at my current company is much much better. my company is selling code to people that can easily see its quality, while my previous employers sell their products to end clients, who are more influenced by marketing than by the software quality in their decision. looks like some people lost their jobs to cheaper, more effective outsourcing and make up stories like this one because of anger and frustration

You have to ask yourself... why are developers cheaper offshore? Is it because they are so gosh darned clever and can write better code faster due to their massive brains? Is there educational system decades ahead of the the one in the USA? Does time move slower there, thus giving them more time compared to us to get things done?

No, it's because they live in crappy countries that have none of the benefits that workers in the USA have labored hard to achieve. You know, running water, sewage systems, child labor laws, medical care, roads and highways, etc. The real WTF is that U.S. businesses think a group of people that are too stupid to figure out how to have these things in their own countries are going to be brillant at writing software.

Welcome to the race to the bottom, USA workers will eventually be able to compete with the cheaper offshore workers once they give up clean drinking water, working toilets, health care and health benefits, and we put our children to work is sweatshops, and let our roads fall into disrepair. Yes, then we will finally have made the smart choice in order to compete with these clever offshore programmers. WTF!

Hi. I'm currently a developer in the I+D department of an "offshore" antivirus quite famous company. It's true that we don't have bigger brains than yours. It's true that we have not even WTF's but incredible crap code almost everywhere (but hopefully rewriting and getting rid of it). What it's not true it that my country is a all thing you say. Social benefits are here far better than those in USA (starting from free medical assistance whenever you need it) and this may sound incredible to you, we HAVE highways and yes, we already have developed the wheel and the fire. This post is only because i've seen in other sites that "USA is far better from everywhere"-attitude. Just travel a bit.

And talking about WTF's, maybe i'll post some code one day and your blood will gone cold for sure :P

Regards

devdas · 2006-03-24 Reply Admin

Anonymous:

You have to ask yourself... why are developers cheaper offshore? Is it because they are so gosh darned clever and can write better code faster due to their massive brains? Is there educational system decades ahead of the the one in the USA? Does time move slower there, thus giving them more time compared to us to get things done?

Actually, yes. The education system at lower levels outside the USA is far far ahead of anything the US has to offer, as seen from the products of that system.
What the US had was (a) Money, and (b) An influx of people from poorer countries who went to the US to work for that money.

Today, it is cheaper for employers to leave those same people in their home countries and pay them lesser than equivalent costs in the US.

Anonymous:

No, it's because they live in crappy countries that have none of the benefits that workers in the USA have labored hard to achieve. You know, running water, sewage systems, child labor laws, medical care, roads and highways, etc. The real WTF is that U.S. businesses think a group of people that are too stupid to figure out how to have these things in their own countries are going to be brillant at writing software.

Do not confuse the people with the infrastructure providers (typically, the government).
Keep in mind that until the previous decade, these people would have migrated to the US (or Europe) and gotten jobs there.

Anonymous:

Welcome to the race to the bottom, USA workers will eventually be able to compete with the cheaper offshore workers once they give up clean drinking water, working toilets, health care and health benefits, and we put our children to work is sweatshops, and let our roads fall into disrepair. Yes, then we will finally have made the smart choice in order to compete with these clever offshore programmers. WTF!

Nah. Your wages will come down until the cost of offshoring rises and they become approximately equal. This will take quite some time, since Indian companies are now setting up shop in smaller towns, where wages are even lower.

2006-03-24 Reply Admin

GalacticCowboy:
And FWIW, while it was an "on-shore" development effort, the developer who introduced it was, shall we say, not from around here. [:O]

What?! The aliens are here already? Why didn't anyone tell me?

2006-03-24 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
GalacticCowboy:
And FWIW, while it was an "on-shore" development effort, the developer who introduced it was, shall we say, not from around here. [:O]

What?! The aliens are here already? Why didn't anyone tell me?

They are out to get you!!

2006-03-24 Reply Admin

how can you deploy and rollout your "flagship" application without testing for concurrency issues? that's ridiculous. ... wordless ...

in my eyes the one and only wtf in this posting is the fact that a company is outsourcing their mission critical(?) software solution and is unable to discover that newbie i-never-did-a-webapp-before issue within 6 months...

seriously.

many greetings from overseas,
jan

belugabob · 2006-03-24 Reply Admin

Anonymous:

It's so easy for people like LaurieF to throw around terms like "bigot" and "ignorant". As soon as someone is labelled as such, they are in an indefensible position. LaurieF, please point out the sections in the quoted post where the poster has demonstrated any of these qualities? Please be specific, because allegations like that can harm a persons reputation. Though i'm guessing that doesn't concern you. The truly ignorant are those who throw insults at others without considering their point of view.

The poster points out the offshore development is cheaper: true.

The poster points out that the workers in these countries do not have the same worker benefits, conditions or wages as those in many western nations (such as the USA): true.

The poster points outs that the code produced from these countries isn't phenonemally better becuase of superior education or more lax timeframes: also true.

I'm still looking for the bigotry?

One last question; how does never having left your own country makes you automatically ignorant of all others? I wonder if the billions of people worldwide who have never left their region, let alone their country, would agree with you?

What makes you think that American never leave their own country - I seem to remember them visiting Vietnam, several Central American and African countries, Afghanistan and Iraq. And they were even polite enough to invite my countrymen along on the last 2 - and we were stupid enough to accept the invite (Must be the lack of running water, electricity, roads, etc that led us to that flawed decision[;)]

Despite this extensive travelling, they seem to learn little - about their decision to do so in the first place, or the people upon whom they foist "The great American way"

However lowly somebody's beginning, they have the same potential for intelligence or stupidity - after all, are we not told that one of the great things about America is that ANYBODY can rise to the office of President. Given the current resident of the Whitehouse, we can see that even the stupid can succeed.

Lets' get back to the WTF's (Not WMD's)

brazzy · 2006-03-24 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
jsmith:

I'm not siding with antbody, but you did overlook this gem:
The real WTF is that U.S. businesses think a group of people that are too stupid to figure out how to have these things in their own countries are going to be brillant at writing software.

I'm almost certain that this is what LaurieF was referring to. I notice that you turned the highlighted phrase into "lack of superior education".
I wasn't directly trying to call anyone stupid. I was just trying to make the point that it could seem contradictory to expect great intelligence in software from those in extremely poor, mismanaged countries. I do not think, however, that I have shown hatred or intolerance, as the word 'bigot' would imply.

You think wrong. Concluding that someone must be stupid and incompetent in IT simply because they have been born in a country with a lower per capita GDP than the USA very much does make you ignorant and intolerant. Mostly ignorant, though.

brazzy · 2006-03-24 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
Anonymous:
In every case I've read about of people being burned by outsourcing, it's due to failure to verify results. Unfortunately, in order to verify results, you can't just pretend not to need technical people. Every company that delivers a software product needs QA even if they didn't write it. Drop quality at your own peril...

Funny, when I have a company provide a product to me for a price, I expect them to do their own quality checking. Maybe I'm strange that way, that when I arrange to buy something I expect what's delivered to have some bearing to what I bought.

Yeah, you expect. I'm sure Steve's company expected that too.

They did the IT equivalent of buying stuff mail-order based purely on price from a dubious source.

The Cost of Static

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