• ciglatson (unregistered) in reply to CMM5 THIS!

    No, it's because they live in crappy countries that have none of the benefits that workers in the USA have labored hard to achieve. You know, running water, sewage systems, child labor laws, medical care, roads and highways, etc. The real WTF is that U.S. businesses think a group of people that are too stupid to figure out how to have these things in their own countries are going to be brillant at writing software. Haha, that's cute. You think you've got social security :D

  • (cs) in reply to CMM5 THIS!
    Anonymous:
    I think you have a great point.  In many of these countries, IT is one of the few ways out of poverty.  Well guess what, this means there is a huge incentive to scratch, claw, and cheat your way into getting as many "masters" degrees as you can, in order to be at the front of the hiring line.  I will assume anyone of average intelligence can get an IT degree.  But this hardly implies they will be good at it, have an aptitude for it, or have a passion for it.  Even worse, the incentive to cheat to get the degree at all (in case of total skill mismatch), or more likely, to compete in class rank, is huge.  The bottom line is you have a huge supply of questionably educated people who might have no real talent or motivation to create the best software.  And the ratio of bad to good is probably not very good, considering a high level of people pursuing such a career just for the money.


    Um... bollocks. Note that IT outsourcing isn't done everywhere. Every heard of outsourcing projects to Africa? No, it's done in places that have a low cost of living AND a higher education system that is accessible to a large enough part of the population (read: middle class) to provide both bulk and quality. In India, you simply have such an incredibly huge amount of people that the relatively small middles class still means millions and millions of very motivated people. Yes, these people are motivated by a money (read: a desire to get a nice house and their children a good education. sound familiar?). VERY motivated. And motivation goes a long, long way. I'd rather have someone intelligent and very motivated but untalented in IT than someone who's talented but a lazy prima donna.
  • (cs) in reply to FrostCat
    FrostCat:
    Anonymous:
    In every case I've read about of people being burned by outsourcing, it's due to failure to verify results.  Unfortunately, in order to verify results, you can't just pretend not to need technical people.  Every company that delivers a software product needs QA even if they didn't write it.  Drop quality at your own peril...
    Got it--the offshore company that made a monumental screwup that should've been caught very early in their development cycle bore no blame for this. You have a promising career in upper management ahead of you.


    And you don't, if you think that placing the blame is important but preventing such disasters from happening in the first place is not.
  • (cs) in reply to VGR
    VGR:
    If it had not been off-shored, we'd be saying things like:

    "Didn't the hiring managers give any sort of technical interview or test?"

    "Where were the peer reviews?"

    Of course, when you use off-shore outsourcing, you can't do any of that.


    Um, sure you can. It just takes extra planning,  infrastructure and expenses, and then the offshoring suddenly is only a minor (but real) rather than a major (but false) bargain. There are companies that get this and can make offshoring work.

  • (cs) in reply to brazzy
    brazzy:

    I'd rather have someone intelligent and very motivated but untalented in IT than someone who's talented but a lazy prima donna.


    I would always choose the talented lazy prima donna over the motivated but untalented guy. But it's probably even better to choose neighter and look for a motivated talented prima donna instead.
  • danio (unregistered) in reply to Krenn
    Anonymous:
    Anonymous:
    In every case I've read about of people being burned by outsourcing, it's due to failure to verify results.  Unfortunately, in order to verify results, you can't just pretend not to need technical people.  Every company that delivers a software product needs QA even if they didn't write it.  Drop quality at your own peril...

    Funny, when I have a company provide a product to me for a price, I expect them to do their own quality checking.  Maybe I'm strange that way, that when I arrange to buy something I expect what's delivered to have some bearing to what I bought.


    Sure you expect that but you should also do your own quality checks if you are then going on to sell the product to somebody else, especially if they are a new supplier.  It's like buying a product from a store: the first few times I buy from a new manufacturer I will look in more detail at the product in the store to check it matches my expectations.  After some good results I start to trust the manufacturer more and don't check as much.
  • Tragomaskhalos (unregistered)

    It's interesting how many people are blaming this WTF on the fact that the programming and testing were outsourced. Seems to me it's a simple management snafu; quite clearly there were no reviews performed either of the code or the test scripts - here, a simple "er, guys, where are your concurrent access tests?" would have saved millions.Outsourcing doesn't mean "throw the whole lot over the fence and hope for the best" unless you are very trusting or very stupid, it means "sub out stuff that can be done cheaper but keep a very close eye on the quality".

     

  • (cs) in reply to ammoQ
    ammoQ:
    I would always choose the talented lazy prima donna over the motivated but untalented guy.


    Note that with "untalented" I don't mean a total lack of understanding or qualification.

    But it's probably even better to choose neighter and look for a motivated talented prima donna instead.


    Interesting, because I see a much bigger problem in the "prima donna" factor than in the laziness. Someone who's just lazy can be made to work with incentives and threats, and may get things done well by being creative about automating them. A prima donna to me implies someone with an inflated ego, who refuses to work on things they consider uninteresting, always insists they know everything better and will not work in a team unless nobody ever challenges their opinions and decisions.

  • (cs) in reply to lamborghini
    lamborghini:
    Welcome to off-shoring. All your base are belong to us.

    Somebody set up us the bomb!
  • London Geezer (unregistered) in reply to Anita Tinkle

    c-pound.... I suppose when you play piano you press that key too? Or you sing in the key of c-pound? £ is a pound sign. # is a hash, or in musical notation sharp.

    In the software development world it is sharp. The language is called C-Sharp!!!

     

    WTF???

  • (cs) in reply to CMM5 THIS!
    Anonymous:
    Anonymous:
    this is so made up! if those elite on-shore developers were so damn good, why was the app rewritten in the first place? i work for an outsourcing company now (used to work for a big german software vendor) and i know for sure the quality of software created at my current company is much much better. my company is selling code to people that can easily see its quality, while my previous employers sell their products to end clients, who are more influenced by marketing than by the software quality in their decision. looks like some people lost their jobs to cheaper, more effective outsourcing and make up stories like this one because of anger and frustration


    You have to ask yourself... why are developers cheaper offshore?  Is it because they are so gosh darned clever and can write better code faster due to their massive brains?  Is there educational system decades ahead of the the one in the USA?  Does time move slower there, thus giving them more time compared to us to get things done?

    No, it's because they live in crappy countries that have none of the benefits that workers in the USA have labored hard to achieve.  You know, running water, sewage systems, child labor laws, medical care, roads and highways, etc.  The real WTF is that U.S. businesses think a group of people that are too stupid to figure out how to have these things in their own countries are going to be brillant at writing software.

    Welcome to the race to the bottom, USA workers will eventually be able to compete with the cheaper offshore workers once they give up clean drinking water, working toilets, health care and health benefits, and we put our children to work is sweatshops, and let our roads fall into disrepair. Yes, then we will finally have made the smart choice in order to compete with these clever offshore programmers.  WTF!


    So USA is worker's paradise? Let me tell you I'm from one of these "cheap" countries you talk about, and I don't know where you were educated, but we have clean water ,working toilets, health care (for free), free schools and universities (there are payed ones also, but you can study for free), and the cost is cheaper for you because dollars are expensive (no, we're not comunist, nor am I). So ok, we're not the greatest country, but we don't have half the racism and hate that you seem to have...
    And for the subject of the WTF, the software quality does not depend on the country where it is made (as far as I can tell, Microsoft is a US company... and Linuz Torvalds is not American), it depends on the people who make it... so you can get shitty software both on-shore and off-shore, as well as you can get great quality software on-shore and off-shore also (btw, onshore doesn't necessarily mean in the US, neither offshore means outside of it, there are many other countries in the world).
  • (cs) in reply to brazzy
    brazzy:


    Interesting, because I see a much bigger problem in the "prima donna" factor than in the laziness. Someone who's just lazy can be made to work with incentives and threats, and may get things done well by being creative about automating them. A prima donna to me implies someone with an inflated ego, who refuses to work on things they consider uninteresting, always insists they know everything better and will not work in a team unless nobody ever challenges their opinions and decisions.



    Given that definition, I aggree it's better to search for a motivated talented non-prima donna, if such a person exists.
  • (cs)

    The old adage holds true:

    <FONT face=Arial size=4>"You get what you pay for"</FONT>

  • (cs) in reply to ParkinT
    ParkinT:

    The old adage holds true:

    <FONT face=Arial size=4>"You get what you pay for"</FONT>

    If you pay peanuts you get monkeys ? [8-)]

  • (cs) in reply to tapdancingdan
    tapdancingdan:
    ParkinT:

    The old adage holds true:

    <font face="Arial" size="4">"You get what you pay for"</font>

    If you pay peanuts you get monkeys ? [8-)]



    If you're bananas you get eaten by monkeys?
  • (cs) in reply to TJ
    Anonymous:
    "The real WTF is that U.S. businesses think a group of people that are too stupid to figure out how to have these things in their own countries are going to be brillant at writing software."

    It's pretty clear from the above statement that you think everyone who lives in poverty is stupid. That makes you a bigot. You're on the record; how can you deny it?

    The funny part is that you call others stupid when you can't spell and confuse "their" with "they're". Buy a dictionary, moron.

    WTF :) Who confused what where? Only occurrence of either in the cited paragraph is "their" which looks ok to me :) Or was it irony???
  • (cs) in reply to JS
    Anonymous:
    I think the moral of the story is that outsourcing to the cheapest developer might not be the best idea. Not that outsorced development is always bad.


    That depends on what your core business is.  If your core business is software development, outsourcing it is bad.  Outsourcing your core business is always bad - unless your inhouse developers are themselves so incompetent that everything they do is botched up.  In that case there are several WTFs going on, not least of which is that you hired the wrong people!

    As a corollary, if you are concerned about quality, then outsourcing QA is bad.  And if you have customers, then outsourcing customer support is bad.  Really this stuff is not rocket science.

    In software development in particular, when outsourcing to large software farms in India, beware of the management policies that these farms/firms typically operate under: namely, hire totally inexperienced cheap new grads to do all of the development, and as soon as they get any experience, promote them to management.  So if you want your software developed entirely by people with essentially no experience, by all means outsource it to India.

    (Note that many of the false economies of outsourcing can be realized in exactly the same way using local talent only: namely, replace all of your expensive senior developers with cheap new grads, thereby halving your development costs.  It doesn't take much experience or intelligence to predict the outcome of this plan.)

  • (cs) in reply to :-O

    I'm usually in favor of supporting offshore development - especially when clueless management "offshores" a project to save money, and assumes that the isolated developers will have the same context-information as regular employees would. But, this one definately a score against offshore teams: Understandable, yes, but plain sloppy Design. Plain sloppy coding. Plain sloppy testing.

  • anon (unregistered) in reply to taina maina

    Better than what?  Are you saying that all code written outside of the us is better than the code written here?  Are you sharing brain cells with president bush?  I'm not angry at foreign programmers, they have a right to work just like we do, I would tend to be angry at the corporate greed that costs everyone in the end.  It's just common sense that companies are responsible to their customers for the applications or websites that they produce.  They can't have the attitude that it's just a commodity that they can take the lowest bid on and then just expect it to work without even looking at it.  After all, their customers rightly expect that they are buying services from THEM, and not from somebody else they've never even heard of.  Besides, why should they get to pay the foreign firms bargain basement prices for the software that they don't even have to look at, then make a fortune off of it?  Doesn't that seem unfair?

  • (cs) in reply to belugabob
    belugabob:
    Anonymous:

    It's so easy for people like LaurieF to throw around terms like "bigot" and "ignorant". As soon as someone is labelled as such, they are in an indefensible position. LaurieF, please point out the sections in the quoted post where the poster has demonstrated any of these qualities? Please be specific, because allegations like that can harm a persons reputation. Though i'm guessing that doesn't concern you. The truly ignorant are those who throw insults at others without considering their point of view.

    The poster points out the offshore development is cheaper: true.

    The poster points out that the workers in these countries do not have the same worker benefits, conditions or wages as those in many western nations (such as the USA): true.

    The poster points outs that the code produced from these countries isn't phenonemally better becuase of superior education or more lax timeframes: also true.

    I'm still looking for the bigotry?

    One last question; how does never having left your own country makes you automatically ignorant of all others? I wonder if the billions of people worldwide who have never left their region, let alone their country, would agree with you?

    What makes you think that American never leave their own country - I seem to remember them visiting Vietnam, several Central American and African countries, Afghanistan and Iraq. And they were even polite enough to invite my countrymen along on the last 2 - and we were stupid enough to accept the invite (Must be the lack of running water, electricity, roads, etc that led us to that flawed decision[;)]

    Despite this extensive travelling, they seem to learn little - about their decision to do so in the first place, or the people upon whom they foist "The great American way"

    However lowly somebody's beginning, they have the same potential for intelligence or stupidity - after all, are we not told that one of the great things about America is that ANYBODY can rise to the office of President. Given the current resident of the Whitehouse, we can see that even the stupid can succeed.

    Lets' get back to the WTF's (Not WMD's)

    I have not read any of the posts after this one yet however your comment about "Lets' get back to the WTF's (Not WMD's)" after you go off on President Bush and the USA makes you the moron of the month. Not one single post up to this point...

     with the minor exception of the Canadian that thinks knowing the last 3 prime ministers of Canada is the only way someone is qualified to form an opinion or have knowledge of other countries and people. (but this rule only applies to Americans, the rest of the world can form opinions about the US without knowing anything at all)

    But NO ONE mentioned WMD's EXCEPT YOU. I am guessing you're from the UK so if you want to go down this path we can certainly go down this path and turn this into a political discussion (same for the Canadian).

    While I am on the subject, how does so called "free" medical coverage make one system better then another? You're kidding yourself if you really think it is free.

    Also, the so called "biggot"'s post... OK the "gem" statement was pretty bad but the guy explained it so why are you trying to label him for life. We have all made statements that did not come out exactly the way we wanted and that has made us look like something we are not, so please get off your high horse. You want to jump all over him for making judgments without having actually been there (which I doubt most of you have been either, at least not for any length of time to become experts on the place) but just as you jump on him for that you are just as bad.... you are calling him a biggot and ignorant without even knowing him... guess that makes you ignorant too huh.

    Why is it that if someone has an opinion different then yours that makes them ignorant? What makes you an expert on these other countries and not him?

    And finally, why is it that we keep picking on people's spelling and grammer in these posts? Most people are typing fast and any number of other things. This is not a formal business letter or something like that, it is a POST. For alot of these people english is a second, or maybe third, language and even if it is not, just like ecconomic and living conditions, it does not determine a persons intelligence.

    So lets stick to the WTF and stop throwing mud at each other and each others countries.

  • Anonymous (unregistered) in reply to London Geezer
    Anonymous:

    c-pound.... I suppose when you play piano you press that key too? Or you sing in the key of c-pound? £ is a pound sign. # is a hash, or in musical notation sharp.

    In the software development world it is sharp. The language is called C-Sharp!!!

     

    WTF???

    If I can add to this: Why not just type the # symbol? As in, you know, c#, j#?  Why type out the word pound, hash, or sharp at all?

  • Anonymous Coward (unregistered) in reply to CMM5 THIS!
    Anonymous:

    You have to ask yourself... why are developers cheaper offshore?  Is it because they are so gosh darned clever and can write better code faster due to their massive brains?  Is there educational system decades ahead of the the one in the USA?  Does time move slower there, thus giving them more time compared to us to get things done?

    No, it's because they live in crappy countries that have none of the benefits that workers in the USA have labored hard to achieve.  You know, running water, sewage systems, child labor laws, medical care, roads and highways, etc.  The real WTF is that U.S. businesses think a group of people that are too stupid to figure out how to have these things in their own countries are going to be brillant at writing software.


    This is just FUD. I could be considered an offshore developer (my company does work for the USA but my team works on our national clients). Let's see your list:

    - running water, check.
    - sewage systems, check.
    - child labor laws, check.
    - medical care, check.
    - roads and highways, check.

    Ok, so my country has all above and yet our costs are smaller than the costs of an average american developer. Why is it so? Could it be that our lebenkosten is smaller than yours, like food and land are cheaper here, so the average salary can be smaller? Could it possibly be that because the CEO of our company earns less than 10 times what I (an software architect) earn our price doesn't need to be more twice our costs (if we want a very generous profit)?

    Of course my country has it's share of problems, but it's far away from the FUDland as you think it should be.
  • (cs) in reply to London Geezer
    Anonymous:
    c-pound.... I suppose when you play piano you press that key too? Or you sing in the key of c-pound? £ is a pound sign. # is a hash, or in musical notation sharp.

    In the software development world it is sharp. The language is called C-Sharp!!!

    WTF???

    Ahh...  You're new here, aren't you...  [:)]

    http://www.thedailywtf.com/forums/25129/ShowPost.aspx

  • CMM5 (unregistered) in reply to MikeMontana

    Okay, I'm wrong, you all are right. I concede.

    1) The world is a happy place and global economics always creates a happy, equal world for everyone in the end.
    2) People who don't travel out of there (lol) own country are ignorant.
    3) You must spend time memorizing the names of Canadian politicians or else you are ignorant.
    4) Pointing out typos, such as using "their" instead of "there", are valid ways to counter an argument.
    5) The typo involving the lack of an apostrophe is a sure sign of stupidity.
    6) Every other person in this forum is an unbigoted, globally aware, politically savvy human being, and I am not.
    7) I am an evil, ignorant, and stupid bigot whom (lol) is no good at grammar.
    8) Its (lol) a great way to win over evil, ignorant, and stupid people by calling them such.
    9) I'm surely off my meds.

    Congratulations, YOU WIN!  Now go pat yourself on the back because you are are (lol) indeed superior to me.  I can only hope to achieve you're (lol) level of knowledge and understanding of the human condition on a global level.

  • CMM5 (unregistered) in reply to CMM5
    Anonymous:
    Okay, I'm wrong, you all are right. I concede.

    1) The world is a happy place and global economics always creates a happy, equal world for everyone in the end.
    2) People who don't travel out of there (lol) own country are ignorant.
    3) You must spend time memorizing the names of Canadian politicians or else you are ignorant.
    4) Pointing out typos, such as using "their" instead of "there", are valid ways to counter an argument.
    5) The typo involving the lack of an apostrophe is a sure sign of stupidity.
    6) Every other person in this forum is an unbigoted, globally aware, politically savvy human being, and I am not.
    7) I am an evil, ignorant, and stupid bigot whom (lol) is no good at grammar.
    8) Its (lol) a great way to win over evil, ignorant, and stupid people by calling them such.
    9) I'm surely off my meds.

    Congratulations, YOU WIN!  Now go pat yourself on the back because you are are (lol) indeed superior to me.  I can only hope to achieve you're (lol) level of knowledge and understanding of the human condition on a global level.


    As a bonus prize, find another grammatical error!
  • (cs) in reply to Thomas Ammitzb&#248;ll-Bach
    Anonymous:
    reed:
    The primary problem here is the disconnect between support and development.  Obviously there was something preventing the support staff from insisting that these things are bugs and that the developers (whether offshore or not) fix them.  Culture, management, being rewarded for getting rid of support tickets rather than actually resolving them, could have been any of these things.

    At my company, because it's so small, developers are part of the support. We know about all the support requests and
    when it's something that the support guys don't know, (e.g. unusual behavior because of a bug) we have to answer, and if it's a bug, fix it right away so we can get the fix to the customer. This is pretty motivating to fix bugs, and also always think about documentation and usability and preventing future support inquiries on things.


    Sorry if I am stepping somebodies toes, but IMHO developers should work at least one week a year in the support. Some will see it a vacation, others will regard it as doing time, but it teach your who your customers are.

    Thomas


    Yep, where I currently work, I started off in support. This was a big help because I was able to learn our applications before diving in to the code and I got to know how our clients were using our products.
  • (cs) in reply to CMM5
    Anonymous:
    Okay, I'm wrong, you all are right. I concede.

    1) The world is a happy place and global economics always creates a happy, equal world for everyone in the end.
    2) People who don't travel out of there (lol) own country are ignorant.
    3) You must spend time memorizing the names of Canadian politicians or else you are ignorant.
    4) Pointing out typos, such as using "their" instead of "there", are valid ways to counter an argument.
    5) The typo involving the lack of an apostrophe is a sure sign of stupidity.
    6) Every other person in this forum is an unbigoted, globally aware, politically savvy human being, and I am not.
    7) I am an evil, ignorant, and stupid bigot whom (lol) is no good at grammar.
    8) Its (lol) a great way to win over evil, ignorant, and stupid people by calling them such.
    9) I'm surely off my meds.

    Congratulations, YOU WIN!  Now go pat yourself on the back because you are are (lol) indeed superior to me.  I can only hope to achieve you're (lol) level of knowledge and understanding of the human condition on a global level.

    Must be a fake, or generated...
  • oops (unregistered) in reply to bramster
    Anonymous:

    OK.  here's a pop quiz, re ignorance.

    Who's the current Prime Minister of Canada.
    Who did he defeat?
    Who preceded the defeated prime minister.

    For, example, I know Georgie is Prez.  He defeated John Kerry.  Before that, he defeated Al Gore.  Al Gore was Bill Clinton's VP.  Bill Clinton defeated George Bush Senior.

    Now, I'm not asking you to expose yourself to the world as a for-real-ignorant bigot.    But, if you can, without googling, answer my questions off the top of your head, you just might not be "ignorant".   And remember, I don't equate ignorance with stupidity.    But it has been my experience, as a traveller in the formerly mighthy US of A,  that getting information beyond the standings in March Madness is almost impossible in the media.   That Oprah is on an up or a down cycle is probably readilly available. . .    

    heh heh. . .  watch oprah in time lapse. . .   you gain understanding into the workings of a lung. . .


    Wow, you sure are educated.  Your knowledge of US politics clearly identifies you as a master of world affairs.  You sure showed that guy.

    By the way, can you name the current president of the Republic of Congo?  How about the prime minister of Bangladesh?

    You see, there are several high-profile countries where politics make the world news: USA, UK, Russia, China, France, etc.  Canada is not one of them.

    But maybe Canadian news carries the current affairs of all 192 countries and you have time to sift through it all.  I wouldn't know.
  • (cs) in reply to CMM5

    Anonymous:
    Okay, I'm wrong, you all are right. I concede.

    1) The world is a happy place and global economics always creates a happy, equal world for everyone in the end.
    2) People who don't travel out of there (lol) own country are ignorant.
    3) You must spend time memorizing the names of Canadian politicians or else you are ignorant.
    4) Pointing out typos, such as using "their" instead of "there", are valid ways to counter an argument.
    5) The typo involving the lack of an apostrophe is a sure sign of stupidity.
    6) Every other person in this forum is an unbigoted, globally aware, politically savvy human being, and I am not.
    7) I am an evil, ignorant, and stupid bigot whom (lol) is no good at grammar.
    8) Its (lola) a great way to win over evil, ignorant, and stupid people by calling them such.
    9) I'm surely off my meds.

    Congratulations, YOU WIN!  Now go pat yourself on the back because you are are (lola) indeed superior to me.  I can only hope to achieve you're (lola) level of knowledge and understanding of the human condition on a global level.

    I love sarcasm... especially when I agree with the guy...not his original post but the sarcasm to all you that have the Holier then thou attitudes - which it is ashamed I had to clarify that so you wouldn't label me a bigot.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

  • CMM5 (unregistered) in reply to impslayer
    impslayer:
    Anonymous:
    Okay, I'm wrong, you all are right. I concede.

    1) The world is a happy place and global economics always creates a happy, equal world for everyone in the end.
    2) People who don't travel out of there (lol) own country are ignorant.
    3) You must spend time memorizing the names of Canadian politicians or else you are ignorant.
    4) Pointing out typos, such as using "their" instead of "there", are valid ways to counter an argument.
    5) The typo involving the lack of an apostrophe is a sure sign of stupidity.
    6) Every other person in this forum is an unbigoted, globally aware, politically savvy human being, and I am not.
    7) I am an evil, ignorant, and stupid bigot whom (lol) is no good at grammar.
    8) Its (lol) a great way to win over evil, ignorant, and stupid people by calling them such.
    9) I'm surely off my meds.

    Congratulations, YOU WIN!  Now go pat yourself on the back because you are are (lol) indeed superior to me.  I can only hope to achieve you're (lol) level of knowledge and understanding of the human condition on a global level.

    Must be a fake, or generated...

    I just spouted coffee on my keyboard, you owe me a new one.  Thanks for cracking me up like that.
  • oops (unregistered) in reply to CMM5
    Anonymous:
    Anonymous:
    Okay, I'm wrong, you all are right. I concede.

    1) The world is a happy place and global economics always creates a happy, equal world for everyone in the end.
    2) People who don't travel out of there (lol) own country are ignorant.
    3) You must spend time memorizing the names of Canadian politicians or else you are ignorant.
    4) Pointing out typos, such as using "their" instead of "there", are valid ways to counter an argument.
    5) The typo involving the lack of an apostrophe is a sure sign of stupidity.
    6) Every other person in this forum is an unbigoted, globally aware, politically savvy human being, and I am not.
    7) I am an evil, ignorant, and stupid bigot whom (lol) is no good at grammar.
    8) Its (lol) a great way to win over evil, ignorant, and stupid people by calling them such.
    9) I'm surely off my meds.

    Congratulations, YOU WIN!  Now go pat yourself on the back because you are are (lol) indeed superior to me.  I can only hope to achieve you're (lol) level of knowledge and understanding of the human condition on a global level.


    As a bonus prize, find another grammatical error!


    #4: Subject-verb agreement.  The subject is the singular act of "pointing out typos", but you used a plural verb ("are") and a plural noun to refer back to the subject ("ways").

    #6: I'm pretty sure that last comma should be a semi-colon.
  • Anonymous coward (unregistered)

    Finally, a true WTF.

    WTF were they thinking? Didn't they (the original developers) TEST?  

    (Heh, captcha says 'register')

  • (cs)

    [I]In what country does Paula live?

     

  • (cs) in reply to brazzy
    brazzy:
    \ Um... bollocks. Note that IT outsourcing isn't done everywhere. Every heard of outsourcing projects to Africa? No, it's done in places that have a low cost of living AND a higher education system that is accessible to a large enough part of the population (read: middle class) to provide both bulk and quality. In India, you simply have such an incredibly huge amount of people that the relatively small middles class still means millions and millions of very motivated people. Yes, these people are motivated by a money (read: a desire to get a nice house and their children a good education. sound familiar?). VERY motivated. And motivation goes a long, long way. I'd rather have someone intelligent and very motivated but untalented in IT than someone who's talented but a lazy prima donna.

    Actually I have heard of outsourcing to Africa. Not all countries, but there are places in Africa where the people have reasonable education and can do some technical work. As I recall, just as the outsourcing boom was peaking India was starting to get concerned because other countries (such some in Africa) were not cheaper by enough that companies were outsourcing there from India.

    India has about 3 times the population as the US (Just under 1 billion vs just under 300 million as I recall). In my experience their proprotions of smart and stupid are the same as any other countries. (Brain drain doesn't seem to be an issue resulting in stupider children) Because they have 3 times as many people they have more smart people, but they also have more stupid people.

    India also have a dot-com type boom, but worse. People who have no business being in computers are doing it because that is where the money is. Coders like Paula (don't know how to program but interview well) are fairly common. If you can sort through the chaff there are plenty of good programmers to choose from. (though note that the best programmers may have gone to the US - unless they love their home too much they get out because there is more money elsewhere)

    I don't mind helping the smart people in India get ahead. There is plenty of room in the world for more rich people.

  • (cs) in reply to ParkinT

    where is canada anyway ? [8-)]

  • (cs) in reply to tapdancingdan
    tapdancingdan:

    where is canada anyway ? [8-)]

    It is right next to Alaska <tic>

  • (cs) in reply to tapdancingdan
    tapdancingdan:

    where is canada anyway ? [8-)]

    It is the northern most state

  • bucatzel (unregistered) in reply to CMM5 THIS!

    I'm not starting my first post here by calling you an idiot...

    " Is it because they are so gosh darned clever and can write better code faster due to their massive brains? Is there educational system decades ahead of the the one in the USA?"

    HELL YES!!!

    Do you actually have schools there in USA? Last time i heard, you guys were importing intelligence...

    "No, it's because they live in crappy countries that have none of the benefits that workers in the USA have labored hard to achieve. You know, running water, sewage systems, child labor laws, medical care, roads and highways, etc. "

    I've started the damn post. so, there you go.

    www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/youare.html

  • (cs) in reply to HatTrick
    HatTrick:
    While I am on the subject, how does so called "free" medical coverage make one system better then another? You're kidding yourself if you really think it is free.


    Nope, "Free" healthcare is never free, it costs.  It costs society as a whole, but allows those without adequate means to be cared for.  That's the point of a welfare state, the richer members of society (hopefully) pay for the care of the poorer members of society.  Unfortunately, it doesn't fit terribly well with an over-capitalist system where everything must "earn", and such systems, where they still exist, are sadly being chipped away at from the edges (or so it would seem).

    Generally speaking, I would personally say that a system that cares for the less able members of society is considerably better than a system where only the rich can afford treatment.  But I'm probably a crypto-communist, or something.

    HatTrick:
    And finally, why is it that we keep picking on people's spelling and grammer in these posts? Most people are typing fast and any number of other things. This is not a formal business letter or something like that, it is a POST. For alot of these people english is a second, or maybe third, language and even if it is not, just like ecconomic and living conditions, it does not determine a persons intelligence.

    Well, mainly because it's funny.  Extremely funny in the case of the person who flamed CMMS for bad spelling and grammar when the bad spelling was an in-joke, and the particular piece of grammar being pointed out was actually used correctly by the original poster.  Made me laugh more than today's WTF, that did.

    HatTrick:
    So lets stick to the WTF and stop throwing mud at each other and each others countries.

    Oh, stop being so sensible :-)

    Simon

  • (cs) in reply to tufty

    Oh, I forgot to mention.

    It's spelt "grammar" :)

    Simon

  • (cs) in reply to foxyshadis
    foxyshadis:
    GoatCheez:
    You get what you pay for.

    In a post-mortem, this will come up repeatedly. Everyone in the room will nod their heads, and authorize a $5 million contract to redesign from scratch with a contractor with a great sales pitch. A contractor that, if they only asked around, has a history of leaving unsatisfied clients with broken software way over budget and overdue.

    They'll proceed to fire the current dev/support staff for not finding the old bug fast enough, and hire $150/hr "dot-com pros" to do QA.

    This is why pithy aphorisms suck. ;_;

    Should be "You get what you pay for, or less"

  • monkey (unregistered) in reply to CMM5 THIS!
    Anonymous:

    No, it's because they live in crappy countries that have none of the benefits that workers in the USA have labored hard to achieve.  You know, running water, sewage systems, child labor laws, medical care, roads and highways, etc.  The real WTF is that U.S. businesses think a group of people that are too stupid to figure out how to have these things in their own countries are going to be brillant at writing software.


    child labour of course is something some countries take very seriously
    http://www.unicef.org/crc/index_30229.html

    though this bit always amuses me

    "Who has not ratified the Convention on the Rights of the Child and why?

    The Convention on the Rights of the Child is the most widely and rapidly ratified human rights treaty in history. Only two countries, <st1:country-region u1:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Somalia</st1:country-region></st1:country-region> and the <st1:country-region u1:st="on"><st1:place u1:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">United States</st1:place></st1:country-region></st1:place></st1:country-region>, have not ratified this celebrated agreement. <st1:country-region u1:st="on"><st1:place u1:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Somalia</st1:place></st1:country-region></st1:place></st1:country-region> is currently unable to proceed to ratification as it has no recognized government. By signing the Convention, the <st1:country-region u1:st="on"><st1:place u1:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">United States</st1:country-region></st1:place></st1:place></st1:country-region> has signalled its intention to ratify—but has yet to do so.

    As in many other nations, the <st1:country-region u1:st="on"><st1:place u1:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">United States</st1:place></st1:country-region></st1:place></st1:country-region> undertakes an extensive examination and scrutiny of treaties before proceeding to ratify. This examination, which includes an evaluation of the degree of compliance with existing law and practice in the country at state and federal levels, can take several years—or even longer if the treaty is portrayed as being controversial or if the process is politicized. Moreover, the US Government typically will consider only one human rights treaty at a time. Currently, the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women is cited as the nation's top priority among human rights treaties."



    on a different note

    This really is all about race conditions however we take them
  • Kiss me, I'm Polish (unregistered) in reply to makomk

    We're ahead of you, Mircans. We have a backup copy of the president (tell google to find pictures of Lech Kaczynski and Jaroslaw Kaczynski, and find 5 differences) and a radio-guided governement (90.6MHz).
    Admit it, we're better.

  • rev_matt (unregistered) in reply to Roger that

    Companies that are offshoring work to save money don't do Q/A. 

    Our former PM had a whole development methodology that he was selling to companies that revolved heavily around offshore development.  The first thing he did was fire the Q/A team because his approach required the users to do all Q/A.  From what I've seen of offshore projects this is not unusual.

  • (cs) in reply to makomk
    makomk:
    foxyshadis:
    GoatCheez:
    You get what you pay for.

    In a post-mortem, this will come up repeatedly. Everyone in the room will nod their heads, and authorize a $5 million contract to redesign from scratch with a contractor with a great sales pitch. A contractor that, if they only asked around, has a history of leaving unsatisfied clients with broken software way over budget and overdue.

    They'll proceed to fire the current dev/support staff for not finding the old bug fast enough, and hire $150/hr "dot-com pros" to do QA.

    This is why pithy aphorisms suck. ;_;

    Should be "You get what you pay for, or less"



    Hmmm.... maybe something more along the lines of....

    You get what you pay for, unless they don't speak english, then they won't understand what you want and you will probably get something similar to what you want, but it will have tons of very large bugs.

    People who don't speak english as their native language should not be expected to be able to produce good code in a language that is based off of english.

  • (cs) in reply to tufty
    tufty:
    HatTrick:
    While I am on the subject, how does so called "free" medical coverage make one system better then another? You're kidding yourself if you really think it is free.


    Nope, "Free" healthcare is never free, it costs.  It costs society as a whole, but allows those without adequate means to be cared for.  That's the point of a welfare state, the richer members of society (hopefully) pay for the care of the poorer members of society.  Unfortunately, it doesn't fit terribly well with an over-capitalist system where everything must "earn", and such systems, where they still exist, are sadly being chipped away at from the edges (or so it would seem).

    Generally speaking, I would personally say that a system that cares for the less able members of society is considerably better than a system where only the rich can afford treatment.  But I'm probably a crypto-communist, or something.

    HatTrick:
    And finally, why is it that we keep picking on people's spelling and grammer in these posts? Most people are typing fast and any number of other things. This is not a formal business letter or something like that, it is a POST. For alot of these people english is a second, or maybe third, language and even if it is not, just like ecconomic and living conditions, it does not determine a persons intelligence.

    Well, mainly because it's funny.  Extremely funny in the case of the person who flamed CMMS for bad spelling and grammar when the bad spelling was an in-joke, and the particular piece of grammar being pointed out was actually used correctly by the original poster.  Made me laugh more than today's WTF, that did.

    HatTrick:
    So lets stick to the WTF and stop throwing mud at each other and each others countries.

    Oh, stop being so sensible :-)

    Simon

    OK I will take this one at a time from the top...<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

    If not for the pure humanitarian purpose there is an argument for "rich" people to supplement "poor" people, even in an "overly capitalistic" society or at least supplement less able bodied people. I would be the first one to back a sensible plan for universal health care so long as it was NOT provided by the government. and if the "insurer" had competition as well as laws to protect doctors that make human mistakes (not to be confused with incompetence). There would need to be allot more included but those are the big ones. We all know what happens when you design software by committee... well the same thing happens when you design social programs by committee or worse...Congress.

    Ask <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:State><st1:place>Ontario</st1:place></st1:State> <st1:country-region><st1:place>Canada</st1:place></st1:country-region> how things are going with their "free" government run health care. Their GST, PST, income and property taxes stay as high as ever and their benefits keep getting "chipped away at" (before all you Canadians jump all over me, my wife is Canadian. She came here 2 years ago and all my in-laws still live in Ontario, I have been in your hospitals and doctors offices, I know exactly what your system is like)<o:p></o:p>

    And for the rest of the world... It is a complete misnomer that "poor" people in the <st1:country-region><st1:place>US</st1:place></st1:country-region> have no access to healthcare. That is a political platform issue made up by the far left. Because X% of Americans do not show up on an insurance companies rolls they “have no access to healthcare”. There is Medicaid, county/state health units (at least in <st1:State><st1:place>Michigan</st1:place></st1:State>), free clinics, and  vast sources of financial aid (private and public) .<o:p></o:p>

    Now for the spelling and grammar...I concede, you're right it is funny when used cleverly but some of these people are using it to judge this guys intelligence.<o:p></o:p>

    And finally... I'm sorry; I will try not to be so sensible in the future :-)<o:p></o:p>

    P.S. Thanks for the spelling tip....they need a spell check on here LOL

  • (cs) in reply to bullestock
    bullestock:
    Volmarias:
    I say this, going in, that this post WILL be screwed up. The forum software night guarantees it.


    Ah, those starry forum software nights.

    You can see some lovely constellations, you know. The problem is that reporting on them comes out jumbled.

  • (cs) in reply to Volmarias
    Volmarias:
    bullestock:
    Volmarias:
    I say this, going in, that this post WILL be screwed up. The forum software night guarantees it.


    Ah, those starry forum software nights.

    You can see some lovely constellations, you know. The problem is that reporting on them comes out jumbled.



    Here's a test; I'm going to try using Firefox instead of Opera. Betcha it works, just to prove another level of wtfery of this forum.

  • (cs) in reply to Volmarias

    Ah, yes, fantastic! Thanks Alex, for choosing a board that will MANGLE YOUR POST DEPENDING ON WHAT BROWSER YOU USE TO POST WITH!

  • Anon (unregistered) in reply to Josh

    My guess is there was a breakdown in communication and the requirement that this application would be used by numerous people at the same time. The offshore folks might not have had this as a requirement thinking that only one person would be using the app.

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