• (disco) in reply to kupfernigk
    kupfernigk:
    Months on the other hand not only have names but even in the Gregorian calendar world they have many different names in different languages. There will be many arrays of month names. Arrays are nowadays almost always zero based and so if months are numbered 1...12 there is a potential wtf in a programmer failing to remember this and creating a month array which starts at index 0.

    So instead of one person (the writer) fucking up, everyone else (users of what was written) fucks up because they're used to months being 1-based?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_astonishment http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq/good-interfaces.html

  • (disco) in reply to kupfernigk

    When I read your post, I was all like, "SANITY ALERT! SANITY ALERT!"

    (Nevertheless, I think you're right. Except for the day of the week, I've seen three or four different definitions for that.)

    Oh, and I remember having seen a month numbering where the year started with March (as the old Julian year), to make leap year calculations a bit less complicated.sre

  • (disco) in reply to PWolff

    So now there are two people who think we should use the wrong numbering system for months?

  • (disco) in reply to boomzilla

    I meant kupfernigk was right about the cause of that date representation.

    And why do you say "the" wrong numbering system? There must be more ways to screw that up.

  • (disco) in reply to Dragnslcr
    Dragnslcr:
    I assume it's because most schools, including mine, in the United States don't have Software Engineering degrees. Most colleges consider Computer Science and Software Engineering to be the same thing.

    Not being funny maybe you shouldn't study there.

    It would be like saying that Physics and Mechanical Engineering are the same ... they obviously aren't ... but are nonetheless related. I can't believe a University conflate these two subjects.

  • (disco) in reply to PWolff
    PWolff:
    And why do you say "the" wrong numbering system?

    When anyone (using the current Gregorian calendar) wants to refer to January, they use the number 1. Etc.

    PWolff:
    I meant kupfernigk was right about the cause of that date representation.

    Yeah, I wasn't quibbling with him about that. His explanation is functionally equivalent to mine, except that we disagree about it being a good idea to use the wrong number to accommodate the possibility of someone using a zero based array to store months.

  • (disco) in reply to boomzilla
    boomzilla:
    So now there are *two* people who think we should use the wrong numbering system for months?

    Front Page Trolls™ don't count.

  • (disco) in reply to redwizard

    The interesting thing for me is that none of those things in the left circle were things that I would care about from a school, at the age I went to school.

    I care a lot more about those things of my employer and coworkers, now that I have some more experience behind me.

    So essentially, the school is being advertised like an employment opportunity.

  • (disco) in reply to redwizard
    redwizard:
    Cue Benjamin Franklin: "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."

    That statement is only true for stateless machines.

    private Random random = new Random();
private int result;
public int doAction() { return result + (int)Math.Max(0,random.Next(10001) - 9999); }
  • (disco) in reply to Dragnslcr
    Dragnslcr:
    I assume it's because most schools, including mine, in the United States don't have Software Engineering degrees. Most colleges consider Computer Science and Software Engineering to be the same thing.

    When I got my degree, it was a BA in CS. CS moved from liberal arts to engineering sometime after I graduated in 85. (Southern Illinois Univ)

  • (disco) in reply to dcon
    dcon:
    it was a BA in CS

    What a load of BS!

    Somebody had to say it.

  • (disco) in reply to boomzilla
    boomzilla:
    So now there are *two* people who think we should use the wrong numbering system for months?

    He'd be number 1 if you count from zero...

  • (disco) in reply to xaade
    xaade:
    That statement is only true for stateless machines.

    private Random random = new Random(); private int result; public int doAction() { return result + (int)Math.Max(0,random.Next(10001) - 9999); }

    Any time you add in the appropriate random factor, it makes the statement invalid.

    If you walk into a wall 10 times (for sake of argument) expecting to go through it and instead hurt your nose 10 times, would you really expect the 11th time to work? Of course not. But some PHB would argue that you should try again, or you're otherwise just lazy|stupid|{insert insult here}.

    Contrast that with the comic I posted above: sure, the link might work on the 47,253,698th attempt, because the site just came back up at that particular moment - a semi-random event not necessarily tied to the PHB's persistent efforts at clicking the link.

    From the above, one can extrapolate this assumption in Mr. Franklin's statements: that all else remaining unchanged, doing the same thing will always yield the same result.

  • (disco) in reply to boomzilla
    boomzilla:
    So now there are two people who think we should use the wrong numbering system for months?

    Strangest of all is that you'd expect people to either advocate not using the wrong numbering system at all, or using it forever.

  • (disco) in reply to redwizard
    redwizard:
    If you walk into a wall 10 times (for sake of argument) expecting to go through it and instead hurt your nose 10 times, would you really expect the 11th time to work? Of course not. But some PHB would argue that you should try again, or you're otherwise just lazy|stupid|{insert insult here}.

    Contrast that with the comic I posted above: sure, the link might work on the 47,253,698th attempt, because the site just came back up at that particular moment - a semi-random event not necessarily tied to the PHB's persistent efforts at clicking the link.

    From the perspective of an external testing agent, an operation that only succeeds an arbitrarily small fraction of the time is effectively identical to one that always fails. The successes are mere noise in overwhelming signal of fail.

  • (disco) in reply to dkf
    dkf:
    From the perspective of an external testing agent, an operation that only succeeds an arbitrarily small fraction of the time is effectively identical to one that always fails. The successes are mere noise in overwhelming signal of fail.

    This is why I love working with real-life engineers. They understand this concept!

  • (disco) in reply to redwizard
    redwizard:
    If you walk into a wall 10 times (for sake of argument) expecting to go through it and instead hurt your nose 10 times, would you really expect the 11th time to work? Of course not. But some PHB would argue that you should try again, or you're otherwise just lazy|stupid|{insert insult here}.
    You _should_ try again! One day you'll quantum tunnel through!
  • (disco) in reply to dangrossman
    dangrossman:
    TRWTF is that unpaid interns were writing production code. That's illegal in all 50 states; unpaid interns cannot do work for the benefit of their employer.

    Meh. Does Murica have a monopoly on technoWTFs?

    Also, if you look at the standards for the ruling:

    Walling v. Portland Terminal Co.:
    (4) The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the intern; and on occasion its operations may actually be impeded.

    I believe that this particular condition has been met and far surpassed:

    • The company has not immediately benefited. The project that would have required 6 FTE-weeks will end up taking almost the same amount of FTE labor, perhaps more, before it can reliably go into production (if ever)
    • The benefit is definitely not immediate, having required 2 semesters to fail, and god-knows-how-long to actually succeed
    • The company's operations have been impeded, for the same reasons above

    Bottom line -- the only fiction here might be the description of the project as 'critical'. Every other decision attributed to management suggests this is a contractual or executive obligation being handled with utter contempt.

  • (disco) in reply to xaade

    The result here is "got a random number" (for some definition of "random"). Next time you do the same thing, you'll get a random number. Same thing.

  • (disco) in reply to JBert
    JBert:
    He'd be number 1 if you count from zero...

    There are two hard problems in computing...

  • (disco) in reply to Dragnslcr
    Dragnslcr:
    Most colleges consider Computer Science and Software Engineering to be the same thing.

    My university treats Software Engineering like all other engineering degrees, as required by Engineers Australia. Requirements include the same calculus, physics, project management, etc. as all engineering, as well as the software stuff. Not much like Computer Science.

    They don't have a Computer Science degree, instead they have an IT degree. It's all about programming. It touches on things like formal verification methods and includes discrete maths. I don't know if most people consider this Computer Science but it's not like the engineering degree.

  • (disco) in reply to EvanED
    EvanED:
    You should try again! One day you'll quantum tunnel through!

    Fuck that. It's all about getting up a good head of steam! and maybe a good helmet

  • (disco) in reply to trithne
    trithne:
    Well, that and the Cantonese language. (OneDay, TwoDay, ThreeDay, FourDay, FiveDay, SixDay, SunDay)

    IIRC, it's the same in Mandarin Chinese.

  • (disco) in reply to dkf
    dkf:
    The successes are mere noise in overwhelming signal of fail.

    The tagline for Discourse 1.2

  • (disco) in reply to Jaloopa
    Jaloopa:
    dkf:
    The successes overwhelming fails are mere noise in overwhelming signal of fail success.

    The tagline for Discourse 1.2

    FTFY

  • (disco) in reply to Planar
    Planar:
    IIRC, it's the same in Mandarin Chinese.

    It's pretty much the same in Hebrew as well, except that it's "First Day" instead of "One Day", and "First Day" is Sunday.

  • (disco)

    In Japan we have MoonDay, MarsDay, MercuryDay, JuptierDay, VenusDay, SaturnDay, SunDay, from Latin.

    付けられたタグ：水金恥火木どう？～

  • (disco) in reply to chouchuuchochouchou

    We have "mid of week" (Mittwoch) in Germany. Which is Wednesday. Even though we usually start the week on Monday here.

    Whoops.

  • (disco) in reply to another_sam
    another_sam:
    My university treats Software Engineering like all other engineering degrees, as required by Engineers Australia. Requirements include the same calculus, physics, project management, etc. as all engineering, as well as the software stuff. Not much like Computer Science.

    They don't have a Computer Science degree, instead they have an IT degree. It's all about programming. It touches on things like formal verification methods and includes discrete maths. I don't know if most people consider this Computer Science but it's not like the engineering degree.

    My university has the same department looking after both. Though they're different degree programmes, they share a lot of courses. In many ways, the difference between them is almost at the level of a different choice of electives. After all, who would want an engineer who couldn't analyse what they're working on, or who would want a computer scientist who couldn't put their ideas into action? (We even have computer scientists who are studying the process of software engineering, which is a bit meta…)

    Myself? I mostly manage to avoid teaching; it sucks time and is something of a career dead end. I want to make stuff that people use.

  • (disco) in reply to chouchuuchochouchou

    Moonday, Fireday, Waterday, Treeday, Metalday, Earthday and Sunday, you mean.

  • (disco) in reply to trithne

    zeroday, oneday, twoday, threeday, fourday, fiveday, sixday.

    lets get this right people. :_P

  • (disco) in reply to aliceif

    I understand it was once 'Wotanstag' (Odin's Day), but got changed to be less... Pagan, despite keeping Freitag (Freyr's Day), and Donnertag (Thor's Day).

    It at least explained where the hell Wednesday came from.

  • (disco) in reply to trithne
    trithne:
    Moonday, Fireday, Waterday, Treeday, Metalday, Earthday and Sunday, you mean.
    It is a simplified explanation. The days are written Getsuyoubi, Kayoubi, Suiyoubi, Mokuyoubi, Kinyoubi, Doyoubi, Nichiyoubi. 曜 (you) used to once mean 'heavenly luminary' or 'celestial body', but in recent time this meaning has become deprecated to now mean 'character you put to mark the days of a week'. The seven luminaries was an antiquarian concept of the seven sights visible to a naked human eye: Moon, Mars, Mercury, Juptier, Venus, Saturn, Sun. Excepting Moon and Sun, the five planets at the time were assigned the five classical elements(Fire,Water,Wood,Metal,Earth), and with the shift of meaning for 曜, the elements are the remains of the planets in the names of the days.
  • (disco) in reply to accalia
    accalia:
    zeroday

    Is there a patch yet?

  • (disco) in reply to boomzilla
    boomzilla:
    Is there a patch yet?

    :smiley: yes actually it is scheduled to be released on sevenday

    filed under: there are two things that are hard in computers: naming things, internationali(s|z)ation, and off by one errors

  • (disco) in reply to dkf
    dkf:
    I mostly manage to avoid teaching; it sucks time and is something of a career dead end. I want to make stuff that people use.

    Depends on where & what you teach, and if you like interacting with the students. (And, if they only allow students who really want to learn vs. anyone who pays for the course and brings a body to class.)

    I spent a year early in my career as a Course Supervisor. Best year of my life career-wise in terms of the feeling I'd get when I have a student go: "that's why it works that way!" Or when they bring you a success story back a week later about how they got something to work after realizing in class what about they were studying.

    Why did I leave? The pay, in terms of money, was - let's just say, "unsustainable." If I could do that making what I'm paid at my current job today, I'd go back in a heartbeat.

  • (disco) in reply to kupfernigk
    kupfernigk:
    Years and days are referred to by numbers, months by numbers and names, and days of the week normally by names only. As days do not alias to names, there is no point to having zero based days. So the days go 1...n because that is a familiar representation. In effect, the *name* of day zero of the month is "1", and so on.

    We have the same problem with years, which is why we will never have a year zero.

  • (disco) in reply to boomzilla

    You seem to have difficulty with the idea that I don't propose month[0:11] as a system, I just wanted to explain the thinking behind it. I think you are too ready to dismiss anything you disagree with as wrong. Personally I find date handling irritating in many ways, but I don't simply assume that my opinion is the only valid one. The Internets are full of people calling one another idiots over disagreements, but the world would be a better place if more people recognised shades of gray. And also, that disagreement != trolling.

  • (disco) in reply to kupfernigk
    kupfernigk:
    You seem to have difficulty with the idea that I don't propose month[0:11] as a system, I just wanted to explain the thinking behind it.

    OK. You added a lot of irrelevant stuff to say, "those programmers were in love with 0-based counting."

    kupfernigk:
    I think you are too ready to dismiss anything you disagree with as wrong

    I don't think so. I usually have a good reason. And I'm also happy to admit when someone shows that I was wrong.

    kupfernigk:
    Personally I find date handling irritating in many ways, but I don't simply assume that my opinion is the only valid one.

    That's not the point. The point is that everyone except the mouth breathers who designed those month enumerations uses 1 for January. That's what you might call a clue that those guys were wrong. This isn't a matter of interpretation. It's the way stuff is.

    kupfernigk:
    And also, that disagreement != trolling.

    Not sure why you'd bring that up. Sorry, but using 0 to stand for January (see Winston Smith and 2+2) is such a self evident pile of shit that trying to be an apologist for those who foist their nonsense on the rest of us really seemed likely to be trolling.

  • (disco) in reply to boomzilla

    MY GOD WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU IDIOTS. January has to be -1, so December can be 10.

  • (disco) in reply to aliceif
    aliceif:
    January has to be -1, so December can be 10.
    Bah. December is 10, January is 11, and February is 12. Everybody knows the year starts in March, 25 March to be specific.
  • (disco) in reply to HardwareGeek
    HardwareGeek:
    Bah. December is 10, January is 11, and February is 12. Everybody knows the year starts in March, 25 March to be specific.

    I dunno, I've seen metric date users using months up to 31. Stupid metric system.

  • (disco)

    January: 0.00000 February: 0.83333 March: 1.66667 April: 2.50000 May: 3.33333 June: 4.16667 July: 5.00000 August: 5.83333 September: 6.66667 October: 7.50000 November: 8.33333 December: 9.16667

  • (disco) in reply to boomzilla
    boomzilla:
    I dunno, I've seen metric date users using months up to 31. Stupid metric system.

    I only go above the nominal amounts when doing mental date arithmetic. Going

    21 days after march 25th ⇒ 46 march ⇒ 15 april

    is easier than

    21 days after march 25th ⇒ march has 31 days ⇒ 31 - 25 = 6 ⇒ 21 - 6 = 15 ⇒ 15 april

    which I do believe is closer to the way I was taught to do it...

  • (disco) in reply to boomzilla
    boomzilla:
    Sorry, but using 0 to stand for January (see Winston Smith and 2+2) is such a self evident pile of shit that trying to be an apologist for those who foist their nonsense on the rest of us really seemed likely to be trolling.

    Thank deity of choice you've never worked for me.

    boomzilla:
    I don't think so. I usually have a good reason. And I'm also happy to admit when someone shows that I was wrong.
    Except, of course, that you never are.
    aliceif:
    MY GOD WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU IDIOTS.January has to be -1, so December can be 10.
    Touché. I defer to somebody who really has a clue about this whole date thing.
  • (disco) in reply to kupfernigk
    kupfernigk:
    Thank deity of choice you've never worked for me.

    At least we can agree on this.

    kupfernigk:
    Except, of course, that you never are.

    Not at all true, and I've admitted mistakes plenty of times around here. But I'm definitely right about this. I'm not sure why you still think I'm not. Do you know anyone who doesn't use 1 for January, etc? Seriously, what's your argument for this?

    Are you that in love with the convenience of a zero based array of month names where January is the first element? Do you make it a habit to use confusing conventions everywhere, or just months?

  • (disco) in reply to boomzilla 
    public class KupfernigkCalendar extends BoomzillaCalendar{
    public KupfernigkCalendar(int year, int month, int day){
       super(year, month+1, day);
    }
    
    public int getMonth(){
       return month - 1;
    }

    public int setMonth(int month){
       this.month = month + 1;
    }
    
    // And so on ...

}
  • (disco) in reply to aliceif

    This is why it is said that any codebase will eventually evolve to reflect the political divisions between the authors of the codebase.

  • (disco) in reply to tar

    Boomzilla's calendar is going to overthrow Cuba!

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