The Daily WTF: Curious Perversions in Information Technology

boog · 2011-07-01 Reply Admin

Ralph:
frits:
Way to take my playful jab at Mac users and turn it into a straw man about "shoddy design".
Highlight the places where he takes a playful jab a Mac users.

frits:
TRWTF is MAC users don't understand they can just change the file extension later.

That was easy.

Ralph:
Explain how the solution you offer isn't necessitated by deficient design.

Why does he need to do this? Did someone suggest the design had no deficiency? Where? I saw no such comment.

2011-07-01 Reply Admin

boog:
Ralph:
nobody worth talking to:
Ralph:
Is there anyone worth talking to in this forum?
No, there isn't.

Ah, a man of my own mind.

You see kids, the only way to tell if someone is worth talking to is if they believe that there is no one worth talking to.
If you think such a person is worth talking to, then by your own definition you aren't worth talking to.

Shit, why am I talking to you?

I love it when the joke is explained to me.

2011-07-01 Reply Admin

It is obvious that Paddy Robinson-Griffin didn't pay attention in maths class, or he would know that this app is using complex numbers:

null + null + 80 + 20 + null = 3null + 100

null + 100 + null = 2null + 100

See, neither is just "100". He must input 0 in the other boxes for it to be plain 100.

Rhywden · 2011-07-01 Reply Admin

Raptor85:
TRWTF is how many people who read this site don't understand the concept of MIME types and metadata, which allows sane systems to determine what a file is. (or hell, even without, a simple call to "file" will tell you if it's binary or text, making it quite easy for sane WM's to default all unassociated text files to open in vim/mousepad/emacs/gedit/etc..)

That's nice. However, when I see a directory listing, I do want to have an inkling of what's contained in it.

Last time I checked, even Linux still has stuff like: file.c file.h file.py file.rb file.log file.tar.gz file.conf

And so on and so forth. Weird, huh? Obviously, file extensions do make sense.

2011-07-01 Reply Admin

neminem:
(That said, the real wtf is Windows' default of "don't show file types". First thing I change on any computer ever. Why the frell did they decide on that?)

Because having a unique icon for the file type and a file type description column makes them a redundant detail that clutters up the view of the file name?

da Doctah · 2011-07-01 Reply Admin

stu:
It is obvious that Paddy Robinson-Griffin didn't pay attention in maths class, or he would know that this app is using complex numbers:
null + null + 80 + 20 + null = 3null + 100

null + 100 + null = 2null + 100

See, neither is just "100". He must input 0 in the other boxes for it to be plain 100.

I've seen this so often. They figure you have to put numbers in each box, even if some of them are out in left field. I'm thinking in particular of the government-mandated "trip reduction survey" that wanted to know how often in a typical week you got to work by various means. Didn't matter if it was 100% "drove own car", you had to fill in zeroes for "took the bus", "walked", "rode with someone else" and if they'd thought of them, "tunneled like a gopher", "used my teleporter" and "flew in by zeppelin".

method1 · 2011-07-01 Reply Admin

Loren Pechtel:
frits:
I'd wager IntelleliSurvey needs 0s in the blank text boxes to work correctly. 0.0 - Also my GPA.

Yup. I've hit some surveys that worked that way. The WTF is the directions not noting that.

Wow, that's really rubbish in a very basic way. Forget the directions - its just really shit coding.

2011-07-01 Reply Admin

Thomas:
With all those slashes in the csv's name, I'm sure he has a very well organized directory tree.

Macs can have slashes in file name. Actually they can have any character in file name (including NULL and friends).

2011-07-01 Reply Admin

Darth Paul:
neminem:
(That said, the real wtf is Windows' default of "don't show file types". First thing I change on any computer ever. Why the frell did they decide on that?)

Because having a unique icon for the file type and a file type description column makes them a redundant detail that clutters up the view of the file name?

Good thing they show when you edit the filename trying to change the extension. oh wait, they don't. so this redundant detail is not that redundant after all.

lolwtf · 2011-07-01 Reply Admin

The "yes, quit" is a decent method for preventing accidental clicks. I've seen other programs take it further, burying the option under two or three submenus, e.g.: Erase all data > Really erase all data? > Yes, erase all data

I saw similar on a phone programming menu: Really erase all data?

No No No No No No No Yes No No No

As for the oatmeal cookies, at first I thought the WTF was that oatmeal cookies have so many ingredients, some of which sound more like chemistry than cooking. It's a cookie, not a science experiment!

2011-07-01 Reply Admin

Except you are wrong. There is no such thing as a file extension. Just filenames, and the dot (.) is just another char you can use in the name if you want. Real operating systems let you name your files whatever you want, and completely ignore extensions. Only OSs meant for stupid idiots like windows and osx do this extension bullshit.

2011-07-01 Reply Admin

Clockworkmod uses that yes-buried-in-many-noes method. Nice the first time, horrible when you need to clone the same image to 50+ android tablets like I had to do last week :/

2011-07-01 Reply Admin

TRWTF is people who don't know the difference between MAC, a Mac and a mac, amirite?

Seahen · 2011-07-02 Reply Admin

frits:
I'd wager IntelleliSurvey needs 0s in the blank text boxes to work correctly. 0.0 - Also my GPA.

Then they should all contain 0s initially instead of being blank.

2011-07-02 Reply Admin

Some people really do have the concept of file extensions so ingrained that it's impossible to see any other way.

Files should not be scanned. The mime type should be stored along side the filename, but not a part of it. It's an abuse if the file name field to use it to store file types too. A hack which presumably stems from having a fat without a dedicated place for the type

Finally having the type stored separately to the name doesn't mean that programs are banned from displaying it! Why do people think this? Finder, explorer, Dir or ls can be updated to show the file type just like they show other metadata such as date modified, owner, etc

da Doctah · 2011-07-02 Reply Admin

Seahen:
frits:
I'd wager IntelleliSurvey needs 0s in the blank text boxes to work correctly. 0.0 - Also my GPA.
Then they should all contain 0s initially instead of being blank.

Bad idea. That way the form can't tell if you really meant to answer "zero" or just missed one of the boxes.

AndyCanfield · 2011-07-02 Reply Admin

I once taught two students how to code HTML. One used Windows, the other a Mac. We had so much trouble trying to get the Mac to save an HTML file as something.html that we finally gave up and he switched to Windows.

2011-07-02 Reply Admin

AndyCanfield:
I once taught two students how to code HTML. One used Windows, the other a Mac. We had so much trouble trying to get the Mac to save an HTML file as something.html that we finally gave up and he switched to Windows.

Was it MS Word?

2011-07-02 Reply Admin

Stark:
TRWTF is that people purposefully break stuff to get these screen captures. Like disabling javascript.

TRWTF is that people browse the web without having Javascript disabled by default.

2011-07-02 Reply Admin

hoodaticus:
Anonymous:
That method for quitting a program actually looks kind of compelling.
It beats the method my predecessor used in his code, which is random hard crash.

What's wrong with random hard crashes? They teach people to save their changes..

2011-07-02 Reply Admin

dkallen:
anon:
Rob:
Sadly, OS X has been using file extensions as the default typing method for the last few releases. It sucks balls.
Regardless, the correct extension for CSV files is, in fact, .txt.

While I realize that it is text, why is that the correct extension? Seems pretty reasonable that most people would want the default application for .txt files to be a text editor and the default application for a .csv to be a spreadsheet? Why is any file extension ever prohibited? Yea, it's great to have some basic defaults, but I should always be able to save anything with whatever extension I want, regardless of what some shitty OS thinks I should want.

I think the whole point of .csv files is for importing and exporting spreadsheet data. Thus, it is intended to be generally readable by all applications; in that case, the most sensible default application would be a text editor.

...of the spread sheet type.

2011-07-02 Reply Admin

TRWTF is that people use mainstream browsers on Windows with security flaws in JS engines, therefore necessitating Javascript to be disabled for safe web browsing.

Coyne · 2011-07-02 Reply Admin

One of the things I work with quite a bit is .csv. It is amazing how many files out there are not really true CSV, but are constructed by "pseudo-CSV" code such as this:

  String csv = "\"" + accn.id() + "\",\"" + accn.lastName() + "\"";

Now that might look good enough, but if lastName() should contain a comma (Doe, John) or one of those infernal nicknames (John "Bob" Doe) then the resulting psuedo-CSV file is broken.

Maybe the Mac knows his file is broken and that's why he can't save it as .csv?

2011-07-03 Reply Admin

Martin:
Files should not be scanned. The mime type should be stored along side the filename, but not a part of it. It's an abuse if the file name field to use it to store file types too. A hack which presumably stems from having a fat without a dedicated place for the type

And how, pray tell, do you send said metadata when transferring files betweens systems? Because there are a whole raft of communication methods that predate the invention of mime types, so you can't use that. Indeed the only thing you can rely on being able to use is a filename.

There's a reason that the Mac changed from the old Creator/Type info into using file type extensions. And it wasn't that Apple thought they'd make it a bit more Windows like.

Of course, if you really believe that a "real" OS wouldn't do something as stupid as storing metadata as part of the filename, then you presumably also think it would be ridiculously stupid to make a file hidden simply on the basis that the filename begins with a "." character. No "real" OS would do that, would it?

2011-07-03 Reply Admin

Correct extension for the CSV file is what I - user - think is the correct extension. Oh, well... Maybe I just tend to think too independently...

Zemm · 2011-07-03 Reply Admin

SeySayux:
BTW, HFS+ allows any character (including '/' and NUL) in a filename,

TRWTF. Mac people at work often create filenames with "/" or "*" or other characters that are illegal in Windows. Those files actually do work over SMB (Windows users sees garbage filenames) but if you try and copy them onto a USB stick they just fail without any error message or anything.

hoodaticus · 2011-07-03 Reply Admin

Jay:
hoodaticus:
Changing a file type is the OS equivalent of a reinterpret_cast in C++. It's dangerous, and there's nothing wrong with making a decision to disallow it.

Right. That's why cars should be made without gas pedals. After all, if the user is able to make the car actually move, he might get in an accident, and that would be dangerous.

I'd say that users who can't remember their user names and passwords - even when set unchangeably to their first and last names because they can't handle anyting else - should not be driving.

hoodaticus · 2011-07-03 Reply Admin

Randy Snicker:
hoodaticus:
Anonymous:
That method for quitting a program actually looks kind of compelling.
It beats the method my predecessor used in his code, which is random hard crash.
What's wrong with random hard crashes? They teach people to save their changes..

And if the user complains, blackmail them and get them fired. I like it!

hoodaticus · 2011-07-03 Reply Admin

~~:
Correct extension for the CSV file is what I - user - think is the correct extension.

Let me fix that for you:

~~:
Correct extension for the CSV file is what I - developer - think is the correct extension.

Because, as a user, you wouldn't be thinking at all...

2011-07-03 Reply Admin

I'm OK with dyglyceeeeeerides and cinnqmon in my food. TRWTF is the partially hydrogenated soybean oil, though I think the package comes with a coupon for a free angioplasty.

2011-07-03 Reply Admin

SeySayux:
no u:
SeySayux:
On the topic of the Mac screenshot:

As you can see, the dialog clearly offers the option to override this descision, it's even selected as default. I can't remember when Windows allowed me to override a descision.

Next time you bash Mac OS X, please use it first. Thanks.

wtf does an application's dialog options have to do with the operating system?

Exactly my question. How does a crappy application make Mac OS X a wtf?
Have you seriously never seen a "are you sure.. ?" dialog box in windows? Every user of every OS gets many chances to "override a decision" each time they use a computer. We call this choice.
That's different. The "are you sure" kind of dialog boxes are made to override a user decision, not an operating system decision. "Are you sure you want to move the mouse? But I mean, like, really, really, really sure? The world may come to a bloody end because you moved your mouse! Do you still want to move that mouse now, hmm?"
I grant that I haven't used Windows a lot lately, as we're working primarily with OS X and Linux over here, but one thing I remember firmly is the dialog box that goes something like this: "Updates have been applied. Your computer will be rebooted". First, I did not ask to get updates applied, and secondly, what if I don't want to reboot my computer right now?

Clearly it has hurt your delicate fanboy feelings to see a mac wtf on this site. Get over yourself.
Actually, that's where you're wrong. If anything, I'm not a fanboy at all. Instead, I try to provide extra information about why the application behaved as on the screenshot, as apparently most people here are "Mac anti-fanboys".
Defending something when critisized by people that are apparently clueless ("Omg teh M4c suxx0rZ" does not really make one appear literate on the subject), is hardly fanboyism. Positive critisism by experienced people that is well argumented, on the other hand, is greatly accepted and even neccesary.

To finish with an ad hominem, which apparently is the only form of logical reasoning you abide by: this whole wall of text was probably futile, as either your brain imploded by now because of the sheer amounts of logic and non-black-and-white thinking, or your lexical faculties are not sufficient to cope with these amounts of rigorous text.

Errata: I'd like to retract statement 3 in my previous post as it is partially incorrect: the 'Save As' dialog box does not offer the mentioned functionality, however, the 'Rename' dialog box, which I assumed was the same as the 'Save As' one, does.

You're absolutely right. All replies to your previous email will now be retracted. I apologise on behalf of all this site who thought you were a down right dickhead after your first post. It really wasn't fair on the dickheads.

2011-07-03 Reply Admin

SeySayux:
causa:
Whoa, apparently "no u" was right.
Whoa, apparently you're great with pseudonyms!
Seeing a screenshot of any application on any operating system usually leaves me indifferent -- the only exception being when it's my own application, the screenshot says it's crashed and the release is due tomorrow -- seeing a personal insult, however, does hurt my feelings on a certain level.

I'd like to start critisizing the functioning of your cerebral cortex, however, that'd only lower me to your level, what I'd like to avoid at all costs.

They have a saying around here: "Don't feed the trolls." Ergo, I will cease this nonsensical debate unless you have any other personal insults for me, such as questioning my ethnicity, sexual orientation, religion, etc. As they say in Latin, Absentem laedit, qui cum fatuo litigat.

What if I called you a moron? Would that bring you back? No, seriously, I really feel you are adding valuable input to the site.

2011-07-03 Reply Admin

Jay:
Ralph:
TRWTF is file "extensions".
If you are just another sheep bent on following the herd and never questioning anything, you will not be able to understand why this is true.

On the other hand if you have the ability to look at systems and see what is wrong with them and how it could be designed better, you already know this.

So why am I bothering with this post?

I guess so the few of us can know we aren't alone. Hopelessly overwhelmed by sheep, but not alone.

So why, exactly, is it better to have the type identification NOT be part of the file name? It seems to me that a pretty obvious advantage of using the extension to identify the file type is that I can look at a file name and immediately know the file type. It is obvious from a directory listing what the types of the files are. If the type is stored separately, then I have to look it up, possibly with a special program. You could, I suppose, always write the name with the type appended in some way, like, "myspreadsheet.txt,csv". But then how is that different in practice from writing "myspreadsheet.csv"?

(By the way, how does disagreeing with you make someone a mindless sheep? Have you ever considered the possibility that someone might have carefully considered a question and come to a different conclusion than you did?)

Did you know, I never thought of that?

2011-07-03 Reply Admin

Hortical:
SeySayux:
...As they say in Latin, Absentem laedit, qui cum fatuo litigat.

Oh, wow, you're not full of yourself.

"He who argues with an idiot is arguing with someone who isn't there" (or something).

Ergo, I will cease this nonsensical debate (ie no longer there).

Conclusion:

2011-07-04 Reply Admin

Raptor85:
TRWTF is how many people who read this site don't understand the concept of MIME types and metadata, which allows sane systems to determine what a file is. (or hell, even without, a simple call to "file" will tell you if it's binary or text, making it quite easy for sane WM's to default all unassociated text files to open in vim/mousepad/emacs/gedit/etc..)

Yup. Everyone who reads this site should be highly technical and have an understanding of any (and every) concept that might come up here.

2011-07-04 Reply Admin

Ralph:
CDave:
Ralph:
Jay:
Ralph:
TRWTF is file "extensions".
If you are just another sheep bent on following the herd and never questioning anything, you will not be able to understand why this is true.

On the other hand if you have the ability to look at systems and see what is wrong with them and how it could be designed better, you already know this.

So why am I bothering with this post?

I guess so the few of us can know we aren't alone. Hopelessly overwhelmed by sheep, but not alone.

So why, exactly, is it better to have the type identification NOT be part of the file name? blah blah blah

(By the way, how does disagreeing with you make someone a mindless sheep? Have you ever considered the possibility that someone might have carefully considered a question and come to a different conclusion than you did?)

Thank you for identifying yourself as an idiot, I know to ignore you now.

Ok I'll bite, how would you redesign the system?

So you don't know either? Is there anyone worth talking to in this forum?

So Ralph doesn't know and CDave doesn't know either. This makes Ralph conclude that noone is worth talking to hear. I wonder why it's ok for Ralph not to know, but CDav e not knowing apparently renders him (and the rest of us on the forum) not worth talking to.

I find it odd that I haven't seen C-Octo here today, and yet with some of the idiots around I could well believe he is here under a different handful of names...

2011-07-04 Reply Admin

stu:
It is obvious that Paddy Robinson-Griffin didn't pay attention in maths class, or he would know that this app is using complex numbers:
null + null + 80 + 20 + null = 3null + 100

null + 100 + null = 2null + 100

See, neither is just "100". He must input 0 in the other boxes for it to be plain 100.

unless null is 0

Oh - did I open a can of worms?

Captcha: pecus - there are a lot of pecus on the forum today

2011-07-04 Reply Admin

Darth Paul:
neminem:
(That said, the real wtf is Windows' default of "don't show file types". First thing I change on any computer ever. Why the frell did they decide on that?)

Because having a unique icon for the file type and a file type description column makes them a redundant detail that clutters up the view of the file name?

Except, when I name my file (eg where I keeps all my super secure passwordz) after my name (Fred.Bob) it seems to hide Bob....

2011-07-04 Reply Admin

Has anyone mentioned that Mac OS (and other OS's) let you use any character (including slashes and NULLS) in a filename

2011-07-04 Reply Admin

noland:
AndyCanfield:
I once taught two students how to code HTML. One used Windows, the other a Mac. We had so much trouble trying to get the Mac to save an HTML file as something.html that we finally gave up and he switched to Windows.

Was it MS Word?

What kind of an idiot can't run vi or emacs? Or, if you must stay in pointy-clicky-picky-my-nose world, there is a simple text editor that's called, oh, what is it called, oh, yes, "TextEdit", which offers .html as one of the default options on "save as".

Sounds like the poor students had a useless git for a teacher. I hope they didn't take you too seriously.

2011-07-04 Reply Admin

As for the "windows roolz, mac droolz" crowd: the way this error is produced is by selecting "text" as the file type and then trying to add an extension. The only wtf here is that TextEdit doesn't have ".csv" as one of the allowable extensions. However, the whole problem is easily avoided (as I found out in about fifteen seconds by starting up the program and opening the preferences pane) by un-selecting the check box that says "automatically append .txt to text files".

Done. User idiocy, equally a problem with windows users. Actually, more of a problem with windows users, since they bought a damned broken machine in the first place - how dumb can you be?

2011-07-04 Reply Admin

hoodaticus:
Let me fix that for you:
~~:
Correct extension for the CSV file is what I - developer - think is the correct extension.
Because, as a user, you wouldn't be thinking at all...

It is double sad - that the user is a mindless ε-semi-moron, and that developer expects a different behaviour and thus is so far from the user (client).

Eternal Density · 2011-07-04 Reply Admin

TRWTF is Stargate Universe not being renewed for a third season.

2011-07-04 Reply Admin

SeySayux:
such as questioning my ethnicity, sexual orientation, religion

Actually, while questioning your ethnicity or sexual orientation would be retarded, your religion is entirely your choice, and I would therefore say that it is fair game for questioning.

2011-07-04 Reply Admin

AndyCanfield:
I once taught two students how to code HTML. One used Windows, the other a Mac. We had so much trouble trying to get the Mac to save an HTML file as something.html that we finally gave up and he switched to Windows.

I had the same situation, but reversed. The Mac saved just fine, Windows kept trying to save as .html.txt

C-Octothorpe · 2011-07-04 Reply Admin

CDave2:
I find it odd that I haven't seen C-Octo here today

I knew you really loved me...

CDave2:
I could well believe he is here under a different handful of names...

You're welcome to believe whatever you like.

2011-07-04 Reply Admin

SeySayux:
They have a saying around here: "Don't feed the trolls."

You're clearly thinking of some other site.

2011-07-04 Reply Admin

"Steller"?!

TRWTF is that Akismet doesn't like this comment. >.<

2011-07-05 Reply Admin

Ralph:
TRWTF is file "extensions".
If you are just another sheep bent on following the flock and never questioning anything, you will not be able to understand why this is true.

On the other hand if you have the ability to look at systems and see what is wrong with them and how it could be designed better, you already know this.

So why am I bothering with this post?

I guess so the few of us can know we aren't alone. Hopelessly overwhelmed by sheep, but not alone.

FTFY

bertram · 2011-07-05 Reply Admin

Lockwood:
TRWTF is Macs.

I disagree: the real WTF is Mac users.

Redefining Near

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