• dave (unregistered) in reply to ATimson
    ATimson:
    Mcoder:
    I mean, if they had a real CMS, would their products be safer? Really? Or would their productivity increase a lot?
    Depending on how diligent mechanics are about looking things up in the updates, yes, their products might well be safer. And either way their productivity would increase noticeably.

    Nah - it would decrease. You forgot to factor in the union strike. Since the mechanics would be doing more, that obviously means they need to be paid more.

  • (cs) in reply to Pauller

    It's surprisingly difficult to set fire to jet fuel. Cigarette ash wouldn't do it. When my brother's boss tried to set fire to a controlled amount of jet fuel in a safety demonstration he eventually had to pour gasoline on it and light that.

  • (cs)

    I knew a guy who was afraid to fly, so he took a train...and a plane fell on it!

    Ba da bing.

    Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week. Try the veal.

  • Anonymous Coward (unregistered) in reply to Wyrd

    Just the other day I had a fellow in the office asking me why his column headers didn't align when he printed his spreadsheet. I went over there and realized he was typing everything in the first column and using spaces to position the text over each column of data. WTF

  • Sa (unregistered) in reply to Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward:
    Just the other day I had a fellow in the office asking me why his column headers didn't align when he printed his spreadsheet. I went over there and realized he was typing everything in the first column and using spaces to position the text over each column of data. WTF
    You would think that in that situation Clippy should pop up and say, "I see that you are trying to fill out a spreadsheet..."
  • jordanwb (unregistered) in reply to ponder
    ponder:
    For Packrat's information, small aircraft do not crash frequently....usually only once!

    That had me laughing so hard my stomach hurts now.

  • Sean (unregistered) in reply to Jamie
    Jamie:
    Valerion:
    Who says the train companies do their maintenance any better?

    If the train engine falls off... I would think you stand a better chance of not becoming a crater.

    Have you ever seen an actual train wreck on the news? I don't fancy my chances either way

  • Calculator (unregistered) in reply to Neil
    Neil:
    Klaus began, "So, ya boys wanna learn about how we use computers in the high tech field of modern avionics? C'mon - step into my office - pull yerselves up a chair!"

    Why does the Swedish mechanic's dialog sound like a hick? Does his Swedish somehow translate differently into English than the others?

    Well, if he'd actually transliterated Klaus, it'd gone like this: "Su, ya buys vunna leern ebuoot hoo ve-a use-a cumpooters in zee heegh tech feeeld ooff mudern efeeunics? C'mun - step intu my ooffffeece-a - pooll yerselfes up a cheur! Bork Bork Bork!"

    Is that any improvement?

    CAPTCHA: letatio - I don't wanna know what that might me

  • Dan (unregistered) in reply to Sean
    Sean:
    Jamie:
    Valerion:
    Who says the train companies do their maintenance any better?

    If the train engine falls off... I would think you stand a better chance of not becoming a crater.

    Have you ever seen an actual train wreck on the news? I don't fancy my chances either way

    Exactly. If the engine falls off a plane, it can still glide. Now if the engine explodes....

    If the engine falls off the track, or if the engine runs into an oncoming engine due to scheduling problems or failure to follow the schedule, or if the brakes fail...

    The moral is, stay home!

  • Ken (unregistered) in reply to Jamie
    Jamie:
    Valerion:
    Who says the train companies do their maintenance any better?

    If the train engine falls off... I would think you stand a better chance of not becoming a crater.

    ... Unless it's a really fast train.

  • Bob (unregistered) in reply to Wyrd
    Wyrd:
    Before I told them to use the [ENTER] key, most folks just typed a whole bunch of spaces.
    Yeah, just like you have to do on a type-writer!

    Wait . . . .

  • jbrecken (unregistered) in reply to Biff
    Biff:
    Smelling like a combination of jet fuel and Camels, he sure didn't look like management.
    Ignoring the fact that we don't smell with our eyes, I would be curious to know how the author knows what a camel smells like?
    He's met your mother.
  • Anon (unregistered) in reply to Bear
    Bear:
    I disagree completely. Knowing that airline operation does NOT rely on computers heavily makes me feel more comfortable. Last thing I would want is some retarded content system spewing out the wrong maintenance instructions because of a bug. Paper manuals also work in the absence of electricity, and it's more difficult to remotely change the contents of a paper manual if you have malicious intent.

    Computers are nice, but whenever something truly important is relying on them, I tend to get nervous.

    I write software for a living. I know how easy it is for a bug to get through testing and hide out in production for weeks or months, suddenly jumping out to ruin my day.

    Humans also make mistakes and lots of them. It doesn’t matter if a computer system makes thousands of mistakes if the system it replaced used to make millions.

  • A ha! (unregistered) in reply to Anon
    Anon:
    Bear:
    I disagree completely. Knowing that airline operation does NOT rely on computers heavily makes me feel more comfortable. Last thing I would want is some retarded content system spewing out the wrong maintenance instructions because of a bug. Paper manuals also work in the absence of electricity, and it's more difficult to remotely change the contents of a paper manual if you have malicious intent.

    Computers are nice, but whenever something truly important is relying on them, I tend to get nervous.

    I write software for a living. I know how easy it is for a bug to get through testing and hide out in production for weeks or months, suddenly jumping out to ruin my day.

    Humans also make mistakes and lots of them. It doesn’t matter if a computer system makes thousands of mistakes if the system it replaced used to make millions.

    Usually people trust a computer's output 100%, and then they get burned by an error or incorrect output, because they didn't think to check it, and as a result they don't ever trust the computer to do things right ever again.

    I would hope that in the case of avionics that if a computer screwed up, someone there would be smart enough to realize it.

  • Mark (unregistered) in reply to Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward:
    Just the other day I had a fellow in the office asking me why his column headers didn't align when he printed his spreadsheet. I went over there and realized he was typing everything in the first column and using spaces to position the text over each column of data. WTF

    Why is it that with all the BS internal training companies offer, few offer the most needed: Basic Excel, Basic Word, and how to move files/folders around on a computer.

    I know of entire departments of finance people where half of them don't know anything beyond editing existing Excel documents. Those people would be better off with an Excel intro course than taking yet another fluff course like "Conflict Resolution".

    Captcha: Abbas - I thought that band stopped touring long ago?

  • (cs) in reply to DOA
    DOA:
    Some annoying Swede:
    Umeå lays far too north to take the train. There train station isn't even directly connected to the rail road networks backbone, so one have to change in some even smaller town if one wants to leave Umeå by train!

    It takes 7½ hours by train and bus to Stockholm (capitol of Sweden) compared to about 1 hour (plus transfers) by flight.

    I think I'll take a plane if I'm going to Umeå!

    Having read this post I would like to nominate it for the Most Accurate Username award.
    And having read this post, I would like to nominate it for the Most Appropriate Responding Username award. (There's probably room in the Emmys for one of those.) DOA is exactly what you'd be if you flew from an airport like Umeå to Stockholm, rather than taking the excellent train.

    I don't recommend hick Swedish airports to anybody of a nervous disposition. The engineering is no doubt top-notch, but you have to remember that the non-Slavic part of Russia came from Västerås ... which is where Ryanair base their "Stockholm" airport. It's nice if you don't mind flat plains and heavy cross-winds. Not so nice if the thought of Aeroflot crosses your mind.

    Neil:
    Klaus began, "So, ya boys wanna learn about how we use computers in the high tech field of modern avionics? C'mon - step into my office - pull yerselves up a chair!"

    Why does the Swedish mechanic's dialog sound like a hick? Does his Swedish somehow translate differently into English than the others?

    Got a problem with Minnesotese? Sounds like it was directly translated by the Coen brothers, to me.
  • Asiago Chow (unregistered)

    It always amazes me that people would expect a heavily regulated industry like aviation to be high tech.

    Regulation maintains the status quo that existed when the regulations were passed. The current US aviation regulations are from some time between the 1930s and 1960s. They maintain that status quo. That status quo did not include computers. Ergo no computers.

    The average airplane you see flying around has avionics less advanced than a $150 wal-mart GPS. It is 50 times as expensive though.

  • (cs) in reply to James
    James:
    Heh, slow read but worth it for the punchline. I've been reading the site long enough, though, that all I can managed is a tiny, slightly-disappointed sigh.
    Did you managed all the articles for the last week or so, or have you readed this site long enough for only this post?

    I'd suggest a course either in reading comprehension or in accelerated humour. Finding something else to do, like giggling when paint dries, is also a viable alternative. The big bonus is that it wouldn't be disappointing -- unless you're a member of the Third Church of God Told Us That Paint Would Never Dry, or else you bought paint that was somehow mercury-based.

    Seek amateur help. Now. You'll look back on this advice with fond memories and a cheque for $30,000 to the Third Church of God Told Us That Paint Would Never Dry.

  • (cs) in reply to Asiago Chow
    Asiago Chow:
    It always amazes me that people would expect a heavily regulated industry like aviation to be high tech.

    Regulation maintains the status quo that existed when the regulations were passed. The current US aviation regulations are from some time between the 1930s and 1960s. They maintain that status quo. That status quo did not include computers. Ergo no computers.

    The average airplane you see flying around has avionics less advanced than a $150 wal-mart GPS. It is 50 times as expensive though.

    Y'know, I happen to have $7500 knocking around in my pocket. Well, it's not in my pocket. And it's actually 10,00 euros, which is basically equivalent.

    This sounds like a bargain.

    I don't even care if it's a DC9.

    Where can I find one of these things? EBay? Or has Alex got his sponsors sorted out such that we can buy something useful at distressed Russian Oligarch rates, for once?

    Plz contact: [email protected]

  • Rhywden (unregistered) in reply to Ken

    Like this one:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschede_train_disaster

  • Magnus (unregistered) in reply to Bear
    Bear:
    Knowing that airline operation does NOT rely on computers heavily makes me feel more comfortable.

    I suppose you're aware that thanks to fly-by-wire systems, aircraft operations since decades depends very directly on computers working properly?

  • (cs) in reply to Simon
    Simon:
    In a trying-to-be-helpful sort of way (although I shan't deny being a pedantic so-and-so): There's a typo in the penultimate paragraph: udpate for update.

    From Mark: Fixed! Thanks!

    There is also "hanger" instead of "hangar".

  • m0ffx (unregistered) in reply to Rhywden
    Rhywden:
    Like this one:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschede_train_disaster

    In which about two thirds of the passengers survived. Compare that to, say, the Madrid plane crash this August - of 178 passengers over1 50 were killed.

    Plane crashes are deadlier than those of terrestrial vehicles because planes have to be light enough to fly, which means they're less robust. They're often going faster too. Of course, that's offset by the training of the pilots. The most dangerous means of transport by far is a motorbike - you're mixing inexpertise (yours and others') with little protection if a crash does happen.

  • Jared (unregistered) in reply to Wyrd

    Same goes with where I work. Spaces = eventual carriage returns, and to get a new page, why, use the new page button (aka return).

    Couldn't be easier! Maintenance and file manipulation, OTH...

  • Brent Seidel (unregistered) in reply to Dan
    Dan:
    Sean:
    Jamie:
    Valerion:
    Who says the train companies do their maintenance any better?

    If the train engine falls off... I would think you stand a better chance of not becoming a crater.

    Have you ever seen an actual train wreck on the news? I don't fancy my chances either way

    Exactly. If the engine falls off a plane, it can still glide. Now if the engine explodes....

    If the engine falls off the track, or if the engine runs into an oncoming engine due to scheduling problems or failure to follow the schedule, or if the brakes fail...

    The moral is, stay home!

    Actually, if the engine falls off a small airplane (typical single engine airplane with engine in front), you're pretty much screwed. The engine is a good chunk of weight and losing it will throw the center of gravity way off and the airplane becomes uncontrollable. Fortunately, it is much more common for the engine to simply stop running. In this case, the plane can still glide.

    As far as I know, the main way for an engine to depart from the airplane is to actually lose part or all of one of the propellor blades. The propellor then becomes wildly unbalanced and the vibration can tear the engine loose from its mounts.

  • Carlos92 (unregistered) in reply to Biff

    I guess he meant Camel cigarettes.

  • Daveytay (unregistered)

    About 17 years ago I was fixing Microfilm cameras and printers. The airline mechanics had these manuals on microfilm packed into a cartridge that would auto-load on a reader/printer. We replaced many an auto-load switch and speed control varistor because they would slam the button really hard or twist the knob off. Ham handed monkeys was one comment I heard from my manager. Anyways, this one guy came into the workshop area I was working at and he was covered in Kerosene. He said that someone was testing the injectors while he was in the engine inspecting something else. He was joking around that it was a good thing the igniter was not tested too. Those mechanics are real hard cases.

  • (cs) in reply to Maurits
    Maurits:
    TRWTF is the implication that going to a computer system would be safer.

    Paper doesn't crash.

    But planes do. There's a reason they call unavoidable problems "the human factor".

  • (cs) in reply to Neil
    Neil:
    Klaus began, "So, ya boys wanna learn about how we use computers in the high tech field of modern avionics? C'mon - step into my office - pull yerselves up a chair!"

    Why does the Swedish mechanic's dialog sound like a hick? Does his Swedish somehow translate differently into English than the others?

    In the north of Sweden they have a very distinct dialect so the comparison quite ok. They talk very s l o w l y

  • synp (unregistered) in reply to Sean
    Sean:
    Jamie:
    If the train engine falls off... I would think you stand a better chance of not becoming a crater.

    Have you ever seen an actual train wreck on the news? I don't fancy my chances either way

    In most airplane mishaps, the plane doesn't just burst into flames in the air. Instead, the engine stops working. People die because it's a long way down.

    Most train (or car) mishaps also involve the engine not working properly, or a wheel breaking, or the things that bind the cars together failing. In such cases, the train stops, the people climb down and are taken away by bus or by another train. Sometimes a spare engine is brought in, tied to the train and pulls it to the next station. In all such cases, the incident doesn't make it to the news.

  • Bob (unregistered) in reply to Bob
    Bob:
    Biff:
    Smelling like a combination of jet fuel and Camels, he sure didn't look like management.

    Ignoring the fact that we don't smell with our eyes, I would be curious to know how the author knows what a camel smells like?

    As you're being inaccurately pedantic, I feel the need to act similarly. It's a brand of cigarette.

    You were correct in your pedantry, however, to feel the need to 'act similarly' would mean you need to act 'inaccurately pedantic'. However, the mere fact that you SAID you were being inaccurately pedantic when you were being accurately pedantic CAUSED your statement to then be inaccurately pedantic.

    Oh god, now my brain hurts.

  • Rick (unregistered) in reply to Walleye
    Walleye:
    I knew a guy who was afraid to fly, so he took a train...and a plane fell on it!

    Ba da bing.

    Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week. Try the veal.

    Don't quit your day job

  • tacticus (unregistered) in reply to Jamie
    Jamie:
    Valerion:
    Who says the train companies do their maintenance any better?

    If the train engine falls off... I would think you stand a better chance of not becoming a crater.

    True enough. But in a plane at least the driver has a chance to swerve if a WTF puts two of them at the same track with opposing directions.

  • mannu (unregistered) in reply to Some annoying Swede
    Some annoying Swede:
    Umeå lays far too north to take the train. There train station isn't even directly connected to the rail road networks backbone, so one have to change in some even smaller town if one wants to leave Umeå by train!

    It takes 7½ hours by train and bus to Stockholm (capitol of Sweden) compared to about 1 hour (plus transfers) by flight.

    I think I'll take a plane if I'm going to Umeå!

    Too far north in relation to you, yes, ethnocentric Stockholm resident.

  • (cs) in reply to Sean
    Sean:
    Have you ever seen an actual train wreck on the news? I don't fancy my chances either way

    You could take a cab

    http://www.news.com.au/gallery/0,23607,5035894-17382,00.html

    (OK this was a natural disaster)

  • Some annoying Swede (unregistered) in reply to mannu

    Who said I did live Stockholm? Maybe I live in Umeå and always take the flight... When I can afford it, otherwise, there always is the night train! =)

  • M.R. North America (unregistered) in reply to ponder
    ponder:
    For Packrat's information, small aircraft do not crash frequently....usually only once!
    Heh yeah and if you ever wondered just how long a twin engine plane will fly with only one engine, "all the way to the crash site..." and then you wonder when that would be?... "about 45minutes before the paramedics do..."

    But seriously, the privately owned aircraft (like mine) are subject to an annual inspection that inspects every aspect of the plane from the rivets to the inside of the engine. And it costs about $1500/yr if you fly or not! In contrast, likely due to "big wig" pressure, the commercial airplanes often don't get the minor fixes repaired all the time. And if you watch the news, it's often discovered that a service bulletin existed for the inexpensive repair that took down am multi million dollar aircraft and ruined many lives, because of greed on the upper managements part. Aviation mechanics take great pride in the enormous responsibility of the general publics safety and the view of the mechanic often conflicts with that of the upper management.

  • Someone Else (unregistered) in reply to Asiago Chow
    Asiago Chow:
    It always amazes me that people would expect a heavily regulated industry like aviation to be high tech.

    Regulation maintains the status quo that existed when the regulations were passed. The current US aviation regulations are from some time between the 1930s and 1960s. They maintain that status quo. That status quo did not include computers. Ergo no computers.

    The average airplane you see flying around has avionics less advanced than a $150 wal-mart GPS. It is 50 times as expensive though.

    The key point in aviation regulations is tracability - and lots of it. This means tons of paperwork, which means things are a lot pricier. I've seen people say a screw that costs $0.10 in a hardware store, easily costs $5 for aviation because of all the paperwork behind it. To give an example, you could take a failed part (propeller, say), get its serial number, then trace it back to where the aluminum it's made of was mined, casted, etc. Or if it's a used part, the aircraft it was used on before the current one, and get accident histories.

    Anyhow, a lot of avionics also have tighter tolerances - before GPS, the heavy tin carried inertial navigation systems, relying on extremely pricey gyroscopes to figure out all the slight twists and turns a plane makes to figure out its position. It's an advanced form of dead reckoning, and stays quite accurate - half a nautical mile or better per hour in position. Nowadays, GPS is often used to supplement (after all, you gotta have backups).

    Some IT girl who used to work with airlines:
    Behind the high-tech tools used in terminals to impress the passengers, there is almost no tech in most maintenance bays (this includes major US airlines)! A plane comes in, a manager has to find the paper record to see what the plane is due for, then manually compiles a list of work that needs to be done on carbon-paper forms. The mechanics take part of the carbon-paper forms, see what job needs to be done, opens a huge book that has the updated job requirements, completes job, stamps the paper with their personalized ink stamp, and returns the paper to the manager who uses the papers to see which jobs are completed.

    More traceability there - the paper records and checklists and instructions all form documentation in case of a maintenance issue - they can trace who did what when, if something was completed, etc. Having multiple paper records help form redundancy in case records get forged (has happened).

    A ha!:
    I would hope that in the case of avionics that if a computer screwed up, someone there would be smart enough to realize it.

    NOt really - a lot of commercial flying is done via autopilot, and a number of accidents have occurred because of miscommunications between the avionics and the pilots. When you're "up there", you can't really look out the window and say "I'm here" - you're relying on your instruments to aid you in that determination.

    Which brings up cellphones on planes - most of phones have no issue. Some common phones and other electronics though have caused things like instrument drift, GPS sat lock loss, etc. None are implicated in any accidents, mostly because the interactions are temporal, or so complex it's difficult to tell what is going on. Modern planes are better shielded so it's not as big a deal, but given the general crappiness of consumer electronics, well, there are never any guarantees. (And it doesn't have to be the radio transmitter to be the cause - it could be a random clock line or digital hash).

    Fun stuff.

  • Pierre the Pilote (unregistered) in reply to Some annoying Swede
    Some annoying Swede:
    Umeå lays far too north to take the train. There train station isn't even directly connected to the rail road networks backbone, so one have to change in some even smaller town if one wants to leave Umeå by train!

    It takes 7½ hours by train and bus to Stockholm (capitol of Sweden) compared to about 1 hour (plus transfers) by flight.

    I think I'll take a plane if I'm going to Umeå!

    I just read the the guy who walked away from a Grumman Goose crash that killed the other 6 occupants of the plane was flown from BC to Edmonton.

    Now, if it was me, I'd probably take the train. . .

    WTF

  • Pierre the Pilote (unregistered) in reply to Magnus
    Magnus:
    Bear:
    Knowing that airline operation does NOT rely on computers heavily makes me feel more comfortable.

    I suppose you're aware that thanks to fly-by-wire systems, aircraft operations since decades depends very directly on computers working properly?

    Well, on the Scarebus, anyway. Remember that one at the Paris Airshow?

  • Bob (unregistered) in reply to Ryan
    Ryan:
    The truth is that while we, as geeks, think the best solution is the one that uses the most high-tech, clean, approach, sometimes an old paper binder works better.

    Sometimes, people still look at computer systems as an unnecessary expense, as a bit of a novelty.

    While that's technically true, there's still a big problem. There's only two options here:

    1. I know tech and they got it wrong, but they got everything else perfectly correct, and all is good.

    2. I know tech and they got it wrong, and I'ld be crazy to assume that the only thing they got wrong just happened to be the one thing that I understood.

    It's not just airlines, it applies to even your daily newspaper. If every second technology story is clearly written by someone with no understanding of the topic and is full of mistakes, why would you automatically assume that every story relating to a field you're not an expert in has been written accurately to provide correct and valid information to non-experts?

    If binders full of documents is best, then the management who decided a "custom CMS" that's utterly uselss was actually a great idea, what other management fads and technical mistakes have also been going on?

    Some grizzled old mechanics are brilliant and can repair engines mid-flight with both hands tied behind their backs. Some grizzled old mechanics are the airline's equivelent of the old drunkard who thinks that COBOL is too modern and loves hard-coding his constants.

    On average they're probably muddling through with a mixture of good intentions and institutionalised knowledge that isn't written down, yet alone in a database, but it's all kinda depressing, if you think that making things more efficient and profitable is best done by doing things right. ;)

  • Greg (unregistered)

    Some university kids who know nothing about airplanes visit a guy who knows everything, and based on his having a partial dependency on paper documents over reading stuff off a monitor, you conclude there are safety problems?

    I think if I were crawling around jet engines, I might at times prefer something I can carry around easily, scribble notes on, etc.

    This WTF is a WTF.

  • GermanGirl (unregistered) in reply to Dan
    Dan:
    Sean:
    Jamie:
    Valerion:
    Who says the train companies do their maintenance any better?

    If the train engine falls off... I would think you stand a better chance of not becoming a crater.

    Have you ever seen an actual train wreck on the news? I don't fancy my chances either way

    Exactly. If the engine falls off a plane, it can still glide. Now if the engine explodes....

    If the engine falls off the track, or if the engine runs into an oncoming engine due to scheduling problems or failure to follow the schedule, or if the brakes fail...

    The moral is, stay home!

    How about if a wing falls off? http://www.chilloutzone.de/files/08102703.html

  • (cs) in reply to Biff
    Biff:
    Smelling like a combination of jet fuel and Camels, he sure didn't look like management.

    Ignoring the fact that we don't smell with our eyes, I would be curious to know how the author knows what a camel smells like?

    CMS -- camel maintenance system ???

  • HokieDope (unregistered) in reply to Wyrd
    Wyrd:
    Ah, that reminds of my previous job as a Plant Operator at the Blue River Wastewater Treatment plant. Hmm.. maybe I should write one or more WTFs about that... yeah, I might do that.

    Mmmmm, sludge cakes.

    I knew a plant operator that tracked all their outfall and cso analyte numbers via excel. One page per site per parameter for every day of the year. Came out to about a 75 meg spreadsheet. With no backups.

    Not computer related, but he'd also sample his BODs in a used milk carton on a Monday and leave them in his car till he could get to the lab on Friday.

  • Asiago Chow (unregistered) in reply to Someone Else
    Someone Else:
    Asiago Chow:
    It always amazes me that people would expect a heavily regulated industry like aviation to be high tech.

    Regulation maintains the status quo that existed when the regulations were passed. The current US aviation regulations are from some time between the 1930s and 1960s. They maintain that status quo. That status quo did not include computers. Ergo no computers.

    The average airplane you see flying around has avionics less advanced than a $150 wal-mart GPS. It is 50 times as expensive though.

    The key point in aviation regulations is tracability - and lots of it. This means tons of paperwork, which means things are a lot pricier. I've seen people say a screw that costs $0.10 in a hardware store, easily costs $5 for aviation because of all the paperwork behind it. To give an example, you could take a failed part (propeller, say), get its serial number, then trace it back to where the aluminum it's made of was mined, casted, etc. Or if it's a used part, the aircraft it was used on before the current one, and get accident histories.

    I disagree.

    You are talking about the certification requirements. Those are burdensome, sure, but they don't innately inhibit innovation. Nor do they account for the bulk of the cost difference between aviation-approved components and the same components as used in other industries.

    I am talking about type approval. Type approval is the process by which designs and consequently methods... this aircraft, that type of construction, this design of altimeter, that type of generator, etc., are approved. Type approval is innately stifling and conservative. It forces new materials, methods, and designs to pass a gauntlet run by the masters of the old. Imagine anyone designing a new RAM technology had to have it approved by the people who designed delay line memory systems -- that's what the aviation equipment world is like. The regulations maintain the status quo.

    Even getting a very "old technology" new design through that gauntlet can cost millions of dollars and years. Getting anything innovative approved for real use can be impossible.

    Look at composite airframes. Composite has been used in the marine and automotive industries for 60+ years. It is a well known technology. In the aviation world it has been saddled with absurd limitations like official airframe lifespans of 10 years/10,000 hours based on the "newness" of the technology. That isn't based on science or experience but beureaucratic ass-covering, and it places a real burden on any company trying to sell newer, more efficient, quieter, better aircraft designs to people who will say "why do I want a 10-year plane when I can get a 40-year aluminum plane?" Aluminum has many problems in high-vibration environments but those are known problems.

    The cost of type approval, and the reduced market sizes caused by arbitrary limitations, raises the price of type approved gear far more than a paper trail. Every company that sells consumer products today maintains an paper trail as good as that required for aviation gear. I've received letters from retailers and manufacturers due to faulty batteries in $20 cordless drills I purchased years earlier. There is no requirement that they do so but the cost is so low they do it anyway. It maybe raises the cost by $0.05 per item -- not by a factor of 10.

    Anyhow, a lot of avionics also have tighter tolerances - before GPS, the heavy tin carried inertial navigation systems, relying on extremely pricey gyroscopes to figure out all the slight twists and turns a plane makes to figure out its position. It's an advanced form of dead reckoning, and stays quite accurate - half a nautical mile or better per hour in position. Nowadays, GPS is often used to supplement (after all, you gotta have backups).

    Which is why 747s had sextant ports. Riiight.

  • (cs) in reply to Calculator
    Calculator:
    Neil:
    Klaus began, "So, ya boys wanna learn about how we use computers in the high tech field of modern avionics? C'mon - step into my office - pull yerselves up a chair!"

    Why does the Swedish mechanic's dialog sound like a hick? Does his Swedish somehow translate differently into English than the others?

    Well, if he'd actually transliterated Klaus, it'd gone like this: "Su, ya buys vunna leern ebuoot hoo ve-a use-a cumpooters in zee heegh tech feeeld ooff mudern efeeunics? C'mun - step intu my ooffffeece-a - pooll yerselfes up a cheur! Bork Bork Bork!"

    Is that any improvement?

    CAPTCHA: letatio - I don't wanna know what that might me

    LOL! I can't believe I'm the only one to get it, either. Brilliant. (With two 'i's.)

  • Ben (unregistered)

    Aviation is a ridiculously backward industry. Most planes today operate with 1950's technology, and updating is very slow because the risk of liability is so ridiculously high.

    Basically, they can't afford to update anything because if anything goes wrong the lawyers go into a feeding frenzy and another airplane manufacturer bites the big one. It's so bad that even when a new technology is demonstrably safer than the "old way", the fact that it fails every so often is compared to the improved performance that it offers and that's used to justify a liability suit!

    So although aviation is rather safe, it's not nearly as safe as it could be. Statistically, you are about 1/3 as likely to die in a mile of travel in a small, single-engine piston plane than a motorcycle, and only slightly more likely to die in a mile of travel than in a car. Small planes should be safer than cars since most accidents boil down to one of two things:

    1. Pilot didn't gas up the plane. (Seriously, WTF?!?)

    2. Pilot flies into nasty storm clouds.

    Crashes due to mechanical failure are actually relatively uncommon. Most "forced landings" do not result in a crash - just an unpowered glide to a nearby airport, field, or road.

    Commercial airlines have more money behind them, so they are more likely to be relatively current. That, and the airlines get sued either way in the event of a crash, technology notwithstanding! What with their much simpler jet engines, well-practiced pilots, and better system redundancy, they are considerably safer than driving a car.

  • JohnB (unregistered) in reply to bramster
    bramster:
    Bang On! I too write software for a living, and fly a small airplane. It is great comfort to me to be able to check through my technical log and that the required inspections and repairs/replacements have been properly performed.

    Even on fairly ancient aircraft (mine is 1966 vintage), new problems can still arise, resulting in the dreaded "AD", or airworthiness directive.

    The paperwork ensures that the Insurance Companies know who to go after in the event an aircraft ends up cratering a schoolyard during recess.

    There was an earlier comment about small aircraft crashing more often because of poor maintenance. Not so. Small aircraft crash more often because:

    1. Too many pilots are optimists about fuel consumption, and run out of gas. Oops.

    2. Too many pilots are too optimistic about their and their airplanes' abilities to fly in bad weather.

    There are old pilots. There are bold pilots. There are no old bold pilots.
  • Steve H (unregistered)

    ONEHUNDREDTH!¬!!!13

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