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Admin
The upper house of the British Parliament is the (unelected) House of Lords, not the Senate, but I don't know if I should tell you this as it will probably start an "elected upper house of parliament" vs. "unelected upper house of parliamant" vs. "do we need an upper house of parliament anyway?" debate.
Admin
damn!!! it sounds you didn't understood Metric system at all...
You are not obliged to cut decimal by 10.
you can write 1.785 km if you want. or 1785 m.
as you had with your old system, only UNIT changes!
finnally I'm not surprised you don't understand the metric system...
If USA people don't want to learn it correctly, that's obvious they will find false argument (like factor of 10).
Admin
Are you really stupid ? You are not serious, this is an argument for you ?
hey ! remind that US Army intensivly use metric system.... didn't you know ?
hey, you know what Hitler used a car !!! so.. don't use a car
damn we are in year 2005, people still think like you..... shame
Admin
I just shake my head sadly. So many of you completely miss the point.
Admin
china ???
ho no...
Admin
The Canadian parliament's upper house is called the Senate.
Admin
We should all start using BASE64 as our new system!
Admin
What kind of MIME would we use to transmite data like that?
Admin
It is perfectly legal to stick to the same units. Yards in only rarely used in the US. Generally we measure everything in feet, with a tolerance of 1/2 foot, or we stick to inches. There is no problem dealing with several hundred inches.
Buy a metric airplane, and the overall length will given in mm, even though the it is more than 50 meters (and the length will vary by several mm depending on the air temperature)
See below for my point
It isn't just time measurements. The system the US uses is not consistent, we do not claim it is. However it provides other advantages in the real world because it is designed to make the units a useful length.
Metric was designed to look nice on paper, but it forces the real-world to conform, and the world doesn't.
Water is nice and all, but there is nothing special about water (other than it is common) that makes knowing the mass/weight of a 1 cm cube (1 gram) useful. Take that quantity of water, but at a different temperature and the mass changes. Add some impurities and the mass changes.
Admin
Why do you care? You have never encountered this situation outside of a test, and never will. Only ship designers ever encournter something like this, and they first figure out the volume of the hull they are considering which never comes out to a nice even number so they need a calculator.
Beyond that:
What impurities are on the water? Mix 200 units of pure water with 1 unit of pure ethanol and you do not get 201 units, you get 200.something units. Take 1 unit of that and you need a calculator to find the mass. Water is a considered a universial solvent. Few liquids try harder to become impure - even in the lab pure water is hard to obtain. Some impurities make water more dense, some less dense.
At what temperature? The volume a given mass of water has changes depending on your temperature.
What pressure? Water isn't entirly incompressable, though it takes enourmas presures to make a measureable difference.
Once again, you never care in the real world, only on contrived examples.
(hand wrench back) I need a larger wrench. It is probably metric. In the real world I would have tried 3/8ths (the next larger inch size) first because it is a more common size, and then asked for a smaller one. Come to think of it, the only wrench I've seen in 32s was 5/32nds, as once your sizes get larger than that it isn't near as critical.
Once you work on a few cars you quickly learn the common transisitions, so there isn't much a point to your question, you know off the top of your head which is next. Though most common in the real world it is too dark under the hood to see clearly, and with the grease on the wrench you can't read the size either. I just grab a handful of wrenchs (both metric and standard, but all close) and try them until I find one that works.
Both. I cannot tell by looking what a size is, so I will ask for the next 2 larger ones. Generally I would ask for the standard wrench that falls in that range too.
Once again, on paper that looks really nice. In the real world that isn't how you work.
Admin
Except when the other guy has measured in feet and you need to compare the values. Or you have to fill out a form that requires feet (in which case using inches may in fact be illegal). Or simply because you can't really imagine how long 5315 inches are. Conversion between subunits is not always necessary, but certainly often.
And that's no problem partially because the conversion is ridiculously easy.
I'm note sure what you're trying to say with that. Neither is the kilogram officially defined via the weight of water, nor are the differences significant in daily use, nor is the imperial (or any other) system immune against physical properties of substances varying with a number of different conditions. Where exactly did I may ANY claim about the metric system being better because of its definitions?
OTOH, you say that the US system is "designed to make the units a useful length." - aren't those "useful lengths" exactly what's subject to the kind of variations you then criticize in the metric system?
Admin
The benefits of SI are real, but frequently overstated. The problem with US-Customary is that there are several basicly imcompatible units for the same type of dimension - for instance ounce, pound, and ton, or inch, foot, yard, furlong, and mile. SI provides a far more convenient way of moving between units.
But then the real world intervenes. What actually happens in the real world is that people settle on a set of units appropriate for their purpose, and then use those units almost exclusively. We see hydrologists and civil engineers express volumes in cubic feet rather than gallons. We give driving directions in miles and tentch of miles, not some combination of miles, furlongs, rods, chains, yards, feet, and inches. Given this fact, the real world superiority of metric is greatly diminished. If one never bothers to convert cubic feet to gallons, why worry about the fact that the conversion is not a clean.
Then add to this that the disciplines that need SI use it anyway. The benefit to general conversion is diminished even more.
The place that metric really does matter is manufactuing and machining. The ability to mate a transmission from Detroit with a transfer case from Korea is of real and substantial benefit. And industry in the United States has been converting for quite some time now.
The fact that my weather forecast says 30 degrees and I put on a coat, while someone else in a different cuntry might here the same and put on shorts isn't all that important. To say that it is would be the equivelent to saying that everyone should abandon their language for English. Countries that use English form the largest aggrgate economy in the world, and even in those countries that don't use English, English is commonly used for international trade. So why not tell everyone to get with the program and abandon their national languages. But the truth is that a farmer in Chile or a taxi driver in Warsaw would not benefit enough to outweigh the disruption.
Admin
Now this is a good idea. The U.S. will switch to the metric system (the standard system of measures) and the non-English speaking world can switch to English as the offical language of the world. This seems particularly appropriate since we are talking about how science is all done in SI units. Well, science is all done in English too. Why are we just standardizing the units of measure?
Admin
Yipe! Yes.
Some people do not. Even given the answer, some will still argue that all ounces are the same.
Imagine a similar assumption on an IT project. The analyst thinks one way about a certain matter, and the users think another. Who is correct? If it is the subject matter area, then it is probably the users. Are you an analyst like me? Sucks to be us then.
Yes, it means that it is time to think.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Admin
Source?
Admin
You always read how English is the de facto language of science since you have to publish for peer review and everyone knows English.
http://www.worldstudy.gov/featurearticles/crawford.html
http://www.krysstal.com/english.html
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/02/0226_040226_language.html
http://<FONT color=#008000 size=2>www.garfield.library.upenn.edu/ essays/V1p019y1962-73.pdf</FONT>
<FONT color=#008000 size=2>www.soon.org.uk/page18.htm</FONT>
<FONT color=#008000 size=2>Is that enough for you?</FONT>
Admin
I suggest you actually read some of your linked articles in full :)
Admin
Why? You asked for a source. Did not one of those articles state that English was the language of science?
Admin
> Why do you care? You have never encountered this situation outside of a
Don't be so confident. Last summer, my wife wanted me to build a deck to support an above-ground swimming pool she was buying (due to a severely sloping lawn). Now, to plan that properly, I need to at least figure out how much the damned thing was going to weigh, so that could calculate requisite foundation and joist spacing.
So, I had two choices. I could calculate PI x 15/2 feet squared x 42 inches, then figure out how what a cubic foot of water weighed.. blah blah.
I figured it was much easier just to look for the for the metric label on the package, which told me it held N litres of water. Oh, so easy, to get the weight in kilograms I had to multiple by (badda-bum) 1.0! And if the metric side hadn't so convieniently included the volume, I could have calculated that easily from the dimensions.
Another time I've used this little factoid -- I needed to measure out 125g of sodium persulphate to etch some printed circuit boards. Now, not being a drug-dealer, I didn't have a weigh-scale handy. What I *DID* have was two identical measuring cups, a rule, a pencil and some duct tape. So, I built a little scale, and balanced it with the measuring cups empty. Then I filled one with 125mL of water. Then I filled the other one until the scale balanced again. Voila, 125g of sodium persulphate for my solution!
I have to tell you, if I wanted to know the density of water in cups and fluid ounces, I would certainly have to look it up, and I'll bet the mental math is significantly trickier than multiplying by one.
> Come to think of it, the only wrench I've seen in 32s was 5/32nds,
> as once your sizes get larger than that it isn't near as critical.
I differ with your evaluation of "critical". That said, I own both a 11/32 combination wrench and a 31/32" socket. I strongly dislike using the wrong wrench for high-torque applications, as rounded nuts tend to be more expensive in the long run than the correct tool. Of course, I've also had fitment issues with sockets in the past due simply to the dishing of brand vs. the other...
Metric is extremely handy for many calculations, and really should be learned. I can't begin to think of the number of times I've converted to metric in my head, done the calculations, and converted back to imperial because it was easier than staying with imperial units.
Similarly, the Imperial System has its advantages in certain domain-dependant fields.... baking and certain types of construction to name a couple. This is also why we'll never see metric time, division by 60 is too convenient for the actual measured quanities of interest.
Admin
Besides metric or non-metric, what would you say is "a trillion"?
In some countries it's 10^12, in others 10^18..
kind of wtfed if you ask me..
Admin
Not quite correct.
Units such as the foot, hand and inch could be calculated by subdividing the cubit; the length of a man's armn from the tip of the finger to the elbow. King Henry I decreed some time around 1130 that the standard yard should be "the distance from the tip of the King's nose to the end of his outstretched thumb".
The perch, or rod, was calculated by measuring the length of the left feet of the first 12 men out of church on a Sunday; and forty perches in length and four perches in breadth makes an acre.
So the units of length were designed OUT OF something useful rather than the other way around.
And not particularly useful these days, or certainly not more useful than the metric equivelents.
Admin
Your original claim: "science is all done in English too"
But if you read some of your articles...
http://www.worldstudy.gov/featurearticles/crawford3.html
By learning another language, you can create more balanced relationships with your non-English-speaking fellow scientists.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/02/0226_040226_language.html
...a separate study suggests that English's dominance in the scientific arena will continue to expand. While this trend has encouraged international collaboration, researchers warn it could also divide the scientific world into haves and have-nots, determining who can, for example, publish in international journals.
http://www.garfield.library.upenn.edu/essays/V1p019y1962-73.pdf
Probably 50% or more of the articles themselves are written in English.
Admin
Just out of curiosity, did the "customary" side include a volume as well? Was it in gallons? A little trick that works pretty well in these situations is to recall that pint and pound are cognates, and that at one point in history a pint was the volume of one pound of water. Now the definition has diverged a little over hundreds of years, but it is a useful shorthand to consider 1 gallon of water to be 8 pounds. For calculations like the one you are doing it is close enough.
I have a mental block about remembering the conversion of kg to pound. I use the following to remind myself: 1 kg of water = 1 liter = (approx) 1 quart = 2 pints = (approx) 2 lbs. This along with 1 meter = 1 yard + a few inches, 1 km = 0.6 miles, and 1 liter = (approx) 1 quart gets me through most conversion situations when I'm don't need more than a rough approximation.
Admin
All the more reason to standardize.
Admin
@Hank
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
I am glad that you are a computer programmer and not a mechanic god forbid that you ever work on a car.
<o:p></o:p>
You have stated that the metric system is nice on paper but in the “Real world” it isn’t how you work.
<o:p></o:p>
The meter was first defined as a sub division of the earths circumference to be exact it is one ten millionth of the distance between the north pole and the equator, how much more real world would you like the meter to be?
<o:p></o:p>
The meter is now defined as the distance that light travels in 1/299792458 of a second
Admin
The answer is of course that the emotional investment people have in their everyday units (which is already enormous; google for "metric martyrs") is nothing compared to the one they have in their native language... the whole culture thing.
But in the long run, this is probably going to happen. You already have massive amounts of English loanwords in most languages, and people are learning English as a second language as a matter of course. In a hundred years or so, English may well be considered the primary language everywhere, with the other languages kept around for nostalgia and dying out one by one.
Admin
...at the degree of latitude that passes through Paris. So that other poster from (way back) above was kind of right too.
Admin
I really don't see how the metric system is supposed to be superior for the average person. How often does anybody need to convert units, anyway? And what's up with Celcius temperatures? There was nothing wrong with F (except it's hard to spell), and we never ever have to convert units of temperature. As far as temperature goes, it makes much more sense to me to think of 100 as really hot and 0 as really cold, and those happen to be approximately the range of temperatures outside (at least in the northeastern US), so it makes more sense to me than the other system, using the freezing point of pure water at 1 atmosphere of pressure at sea level. Who lives at sea level, anyway?
Admin
Anyone with a beach house.
Admin
I think that in the early 1900:s, they tried to teach swedish students to use the 64 base system with a different symbol for each of the 64 values from 0 to 63. (The idea here was that if the school children was introduced with a base of 64 instead of 10 from the very start, they should begin to think in 64:s instead of 10:s)
As you might've guessed, the experiment wasn't really all that successful...
Admin
We speak English! You will be assimilated! :)
Of course, the intersting thing is that modern English is a creole constructed from a combination of large amounts of German and Norman French, with smaller doses of nearly everything else. The English language is particularly adept at absorbing new influences, as well as creating new vocabularly very effectively. It is almost as if the rest of the languages in the world got together and built a super language, but the super language turned on them and is gradually replacing them all. Its a well worn sci-fi plot.
Admin
I wonder if 64 symbols was too much to conveniently deal with. It would be more interesting to introduce octal or hex. In that way we might be able to determine if 10 is, in some way, hardwired.
Admin
I work on my cars all the time.
And what use is something 1/millionth of the distance between the north pole and equator? (Ignoring that this value isn't a constant)
While it is true the foot is the length of someone's foot, (I forget which king), it is a measure that can be grasped by anyone.
Remember folks, I am not making any claim that the imperial system is better. I am making the claim that the only significant advantage that metric has is that everyone else uses it. There is a very big difference between those claims.
Admin
1 liter of water is a cube 1 decimeter on each side. 1 gram of water is a cube 1cm on each side. That is by the original definitions. The official definitions have changed with time to something a little more constant.
I was responding to someone who made the claim that it is easier to figure the mass of a even quantity of water in metric. That is true (since the definitions are approximantly the same as the original), but if the quantity is of any other liquid it is no easier.
Admin
http://cgi.cs.indiana.edu/~oracle/digest.cgi?N=365#365-10
} Ladies and gentlemen, we are here today to determine the United States
} measurement challenge once and for all.
}
} In the blue corner we have our current US champion for many years,
} weighing in at 220.4623 pounds, our hero: Igor Imperial.
}
} In the red corner we have, weighing in at 100kg all the way from
} France, and currently storming the world wherever he goes, our
} challenger: Mean Mr Metric.
}
} It will be a great fight today and one that may change the course of
} history. Can Mean Mr Metric defeat Igor Imperial and change US life
} forever, or will Igor outwit the classy opponent and maintain his place
} in history.
}
} We are about to find out.
}
} Gentlemen, I want a clean fight. Shake hands and come out fighting on
} the bell.
}
} Round 1: "DONG"
}
} They both approach each other and meet in the middle of the ring.
} Metric has trained well and opens with the first punch:
}
} How many feet in a mile?
}
} Imperial answers after a moments hesitation with:
}
} 5280
}
} "Good exchange there Bob, hasn't worried either of them."
}
} "No Bill, it's still neck and neck, although Imperial took a fraction
} of a second to divert that question."
}
} Imperial decides to attack with a similar strategy:
}
} How many metres in a kilometre?
}
} Instantly, Metric flashes back with:
}
} 1000
}
} "Wasn't that a great counter by Metric eh Bob - so quick. He's looking
} good tonight"
}
} "Sure is Bill"
}
} Imperial goes on the attack again with a curly one:
}
} How much does a litre of water weigh?
}
} Metric comes back quickly with:
}
} 1 kilogram
}
} "Great offense from Imperial there Bob. Combining both measurement of
} mass and volume - well thought out."
}
} "Sure thing Bill, but I think he may have left himself a bit vulnerable
} here. If I can guess, Metric should follow up with..."
}
} How much does a pint of water weigh?
}
} Imperial reels back with such a tough one. He hesitates.
}
} "Thought he'd do that Bill, he's looking shaky. I wonder how he's
} trained for this?"
}
} Suddenly, Imperial's eyes light up and he comes back with:
}
} 1.0431758 pounds
}
} "Well Bob, our champ got out of that one but it was a bit messy eh?"
}
} "It was Bill. I think he was lucky there. Metric should come back with
} a tough one here if he's got it in him."
}
} As Metric prepares for an offense, the champ Imperial slips in a sneaky
} one:
}
} If 1mm of rain falls on 1 square metre of roof, how much water
} is collected?
}
} "What a shot Bob! That'll hurt him."
}
} Metric defends without a flinch:
}
} 1 litre
}
} "No Bill, Metric has trained too well and has got too much ability.
} That reply was instananeous. You know, I think he should follow the
} same strategy as before and follow up with..."
}
} If 1 point of rain falls on 1 square foot of roof, how much water is
} collected?
}
} "Imperial is down!"
}
} 1 2 3 4 5 6 7...
}
} 7.97922 fl oz
}
} "What an answer! Our boy's still got guts!"
}
} "DONG"
}
} End of Round 1.
}
} "Bill, that bell came just at the right time. This fight shouldn't last
} the next round."
}
} "You're right Bob, but that guy from France is just too good.
}
} Round 2: "DONG"
}
} Imperial comes out and slips in a gentle offense:
}
} How many grams in a kilogram?
}
} Metric defends:
}
} 1000
}
} "Playground stuff there Bob."
}
} "Yeah Bill"
}
} Metric goes for the kill:
}
} How many grains in an ounce?
}
} "Uh oh. I think this is it Bob."
}
} Imperial stutters:
}
} uuuhhhhmmmmmmm. Which system?
}
} "Oh Bill, he's answered with a question. That's not following the
} spirit of the game!"
}
} Metric replies:
}
} All three.
}
} "Curtains Bill. I'm sure."
}
} Imperial responds:
}
} Well in Avoirdupois its 437.5, in Apothecary its 480 and the other
} one is... What other one?
}
} Metric jabs:
}
} You tell me.
}
} Imperial falls to the floor.
}
} 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
}
} "Knocked out Bob!"
}
} "Yeah Bill. I guess we have to get used to the idea of a new system
} here in the US of A. This guy is a mean lean measuring machine."
}
} "Just let me interrupt you Bob, our man Leroy is down in the ring
} talking with Mean Mr Metric."
}
} "Mean Mr Metric that was an incredible last blow there. Tell me what is
} that other system"
}
} Tell you the truth, Leroy, I don't know nor care. I just know there
} are three and they are all stupid.
}
} "Interesting response there from Mean Mr Metric, Back to you Bill"
}
} "We've just got word that the judges are going to make an
} announcement..."
}
} After final discussion, the judges have decided to declare the fight
} null and void due to the fact that the win by Mean Mr Metric would mean
} that some politicians might lose the next election.
}
} You owe the Oracle a life in the dark ages.
Admin
You do know that the US automotive industry (Detroit) has long since converted to metric, right? Boeing on the other hand...
-Pud
Admin
Imperial units are defined as ratios of equavalent SI - it's defined by the Metric system.
Admin
1gram of water at STP, will be 1cm^3 in dimension and 1millilitre by fluid volume. It requires 1joule of energy to raise it's temperature by 1degree celcius and 1Nm (Newton metre) of force to accelerate it at 1cm/s/s.
Can you remember (or even find) the equalivalent Imperial vector conversions?
Admin
Well good for you
It is called a meter and is in daily use all over the planet….
In todays world we need a constant and universal unit of measurement the meter fits the bill. The foot, yard, rod, chain, whatever have had their day, let them slip quietly into the past where they belong….
The foot was in fact one-third the length of King Henry 1st arm (strange as it may seem)
*picks self up from floor dries eyes and tries to stop laughing*
Is that not a good enough reason to use the system??
Admin
Bzzzt, WRONG! And you were doing so well...
The energy to warm a gram of water 1 degree C is 1 calorie. A Joule is the energy needed to move an object 1 m against a force of 1 N, or alternatively the energy needed to make a current of 1 Ampere flow through a resistance of 1 Ohm for 1 second.
Admin
That's really the weakest argument for the imperial system. The meter was defined via a rather abstract measure (and has become much more abstract since), but it was chosen to be just as "human-compatible". Think of it as the length of an average adult male's step, or the circumfence of his chest, maybe then it's more palatable.
And I am making the claim that the consistency and ease of conversion is also a significant advantage. So far your arguments against this have been rather weak ("you don't need to convert all that often anyway!") and even self-contradicting.
Admin
I'd definitely call the number of fingers in a human "hardwired" :)
Actually, I vaguely recall reading about some native tribe somewhere that didn't use the thumbs for counting and therefore used an octal system.
In any way, there are quite a number of alphabets that have 64 or more symbols, so it can't be that inconvenient. In fact, we are using just as many, counting interpunction - the capital letters quite often bear no resemblance to the lowercase version and thus have to be counted separately.
Admin
Now if only it wouldn't have developed that godawful mess of spelling along the way. Ghoti, anyone?
It's as if natural language somehow gravitate to having at least one serious WTF. In English, it's the spelling, while grammar and script are pretty easy. German and French have more consistent spelling and the same script, but awfully complex grammar. Japanese and Chinese have simple grammar and spelling is easy if you know the script, but boy is that script complex (in Japanese it has partially infected the spelling as well, in Chinese it's a big enough WTF on its own).
Admin
So if everyone else jumped off a bridge, you would too?
Admin
Mike your argument is flawed jumping off of bridges is not a good idea, the metric system is a good idea it removes the obfuscation and ambiguity over weights and measures. Something that you must agree is a good thing. To follow someone off the end of a bridge without thought is a very stupid thing indeed.
I live in the UK and can remember pre decimal money that is: pounds, shillings and pence, there were twenty shillings in the pound and twelve pennies in a shilling, and four farthings in the penny which meant that there were 240 pennies in the pound and 960 farthings to the pound, it was a good system and everyone here managed to work it out just fine, the trouble came when foreign visitors came to the UK they were at best confused by the system. We standardised to the decimal system we have today and although there were voices claiming doom and gloom over the new system most people got used to it within a few months. We still use miles for distance and up until recently used gallons (long) for fuel, which has now been phased out as we now use litres. The moral of this little story is that people can adjust to new systems of measurement quickly and without much problem.
As I previously stated leave the old system in the past where it belongs and get used to the new system, it is really not that difficult to understand.
Regards
V
Admin
I think a little bit of humor (or even humour) got lost here. In the US the phrase "If everyone else jumped of a bridge, would you?" is a common idiom. Generally it is used by a parent when a child tries to justify that they should be allowed to do something on the grounds that all their peers are allowed to do it.
Admin
It's not so easy to switch. There was a story about USSR bought a airplane design from UK at WorldWar2. And in spite of it was a small airplane, a simple translation of the drafts from inches to meters take about a half a year of whole design office hard work. (I could be wrong in details)
Please, do not think i speak in support of USA, but it really cost for economics and not so ease to change minds. And by the way, USA just as Microsoft, huge enough not to give a fuck to the rest of the world.
Admin
In fairness, Ireland is always a weird example (I live here, btw). Most EU countries have lower growth and poverty figures. Also, IIRC, there's something odd about US unemployment rates; they count less work as employment than most others, or something.
RE: Minimum wage, in the US, many groups are exempt from it completely.
Admin
Yes; in fairness, the original Ariane 5 crashed due to software issues too (confused about the number of rockets it had or something; the software was taken from Ariane 4 and a buggy version ended up on Ariane 5), and the Energia Military Payload re-entered shortly after being placed in orbit due to problems with a control system. So no-one's perfect. The metric-imperial issue was funnier tho; I think it came as a great surprise to people here that anyone would even consider controlling a spacecraft with imperial units.
Admin
In a followup to this I provided "standardized" numbers from the OECD on employment and growth. In both categories, the US was ahead of the EU as a whole as well as significantly ahead of France and Germany. Ireland was indeed doing better than the US, and the UK was ahead of the US in employment but behind the US in growth.
In fairness, smaller economies like Ireland can respond more dramatically both positively and negatively to changing economic conditions. It is difficult to fairly compare larger, more diverse economies with smaller less diverse ones. The US-EU comparison is most fair; the US-UK, US-France, and US-Germany are still reasonable, but the US-Ireland comparison is not reasonable. Comparing Ireland to a region of the US is probably better. I wish I had some data on hand to compare Ireland to the Boston metropolitan area, or for that matter Greater London to Metropolitan NYC.