• Chad (unregistered) in reply to Mike

    Your momma?

  • Chickens Almighty (unregistered)

    This reminds me of the scam scene in Office Space.

  • Sylver (unregistered) in reply to Mason Wheeler
    Mason Wheeler:
    Senior Swede:
    FTFY. People don't understand what racism is, and think it's just white folks giving black folks a hard time. Slowly, that's starting to include those of Hispanic origin. That's not it either. Racism is the mindset that "we" are inherently better than "them" at x. That means saying that blacks are better runners is racism. That means that Mexicans are better lovers is racism. That means that saying "white men can't jump" is racism. I've noticed the tendency for it to be "okay" to make fun of Indians (MetroPCS,Outsourced I'm looking at you), just as it was previously funny to make fun of Chinese. And blacks. And Irishmen. And Native Americans. That doesn't make it right, and it doesn't mean that your kids won't someday call you a racist *****.

    The key word there, that you seem to be overlooking, is "inherently." While I agree that all men are created equal, we don't tend to stay that way for long, and coding is a learned skill, not an inherent talent. This means that the quality of the learning process and the surrounding culture has quite a bit of influence on the finished product.

    Take a white kid, raise him in India in the Indian school system, and he'll be a heck of a lot more likely to produce really crappy code than an Indian kid of equal intelligence raised and educated in America.

    That's where the difference is. When you consider an Indian programmers to be bad because they are Indian, you making a racist comment.

    When you consider Indian programmers to be bad because on average their programming education sucks, you are not being racist but you are adding irrelevant data.

    Being Indian is not relevant to the fact that poorly trained programmers tend to be bad programmers (we have way too many talented self-taught programmers in our ranks to believe that a programmer's education is all that matters).

    The problem is that people are often not saying what they really mean. While you might mean "Indian programmers are often not trained to very high standards", if you just say "Indian programmers suck", you are making a racist comment regardless of your actual opinion.

  • Sylver (unregistered) in reply to hoodaticus
    hoodaticus:
    ... Perhaps an analogy will point out the fatal flaw in this reasoning.

    German Cars > American Cars

    What about this statement is racist? How about this:

    American Aircraft Carriers > Indian Aircraft Carriers

    Am I racist yet? Okay, one more try:

    American Code > Indian Code

    (I've got lots more of these).

    Because what I'm getting from this conversation is that I have a choice between either "racism" or intelligence.

    Yes, each and every one of these statements is a racist generality.

    Cars made in Germany might be better in average than cars made in America, but if you used the same materials and the same technology in America, with the same attention to detail, you would have the same car. Further not all German cars beat American cars.

    American Aircraft Carriers > Indian Aircraft Carriers

    Have you ever flown with Jet Airways (major indian airline)? They beat the *** out of ANY American airline I have ever used.

  • Nobody (unregistered) in reply to by
    by:
    Nobody:
    Thinking you're better than someone else for whatever reason is wrong, but political correctness is just a masking term for Marxism.

    First of all, there is nothing wrong with socialism, just the crooked humans who try to implement it.

    Second, PC is not socialism. It's everyone being too damn polite and stupid to realize their own countries identity being ripped out from underneath them to appease <1% of the population...

    Sorry, you know that saying "liberal at 20, conservative at 50?" Yeah, well...

    Socialism attempts to enforce unity by breaking down categories such as male-female, national identity etc. PC is how this plays out in real life. Its end goal is to destroy the significance of the individual, which inevitably turns out badly. Human nature is the problem, not capitalism.

  • (cs)

    Shooters that are too good to argue which one is better: Quake Unreal Tournament Counterstrike Call of Duty Battlefield Doesn't matter if it's UT, UT2003 or UT2004. Or if it's Counterstrike Source or the old one. What matters is the massive breakthru in gameplay each of these games made.

  • (cs)

    Insta-fail for everyone for not even mentioning Doom.

  • (cs) in reply to Mike

    If one had the money, they could always buy a time travel machine and enter jousting competitions! =D

  • Dan (unregistered) in reply to Mike

    Still Quake!

  • DYo (unregistered)

    Full Tilt Poker?

  • (cs) in reply to Jimbo
    Jimbo:
    Oh, I get it now.

    Race is irrelevant, it's just that American schools produce better results than Indian ones.

    My Bad.

    Or American schools have a lower bar...

  • (cs) in reply to TeaDrinker
    TeaDrinker:
    Hasn't anybody picked up on the Axe in Quake? I never had an axe as a weapon...

    Dude, you don't pick it up, it's Impulse 1 and you can't drop it. I'm calling your bluff, you never played real Quake!

  • (cs) in reply to Mike

    Well, you can't BUY it but I'd venture Urban Terror 4.1. Runs on Q3's engine but SO MUCH FUN.

  • (cs) in reply to C4I_Officer
    C4I_Officer:
    Insta-fail for everyone for not even mentioning Doom.

    I see your mention, and raise you my Doom Death Montage.

  • Brit Banking Contractor (unregistered) in reply to hoodaticus
    hoodaticus:
    You're saying TRWTF is free markets? Which side of supply and demand offends thee?

    The way to keep jobs from going to India is to let them go ahead and go to India. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, and in this case, the outsourcer will learn its lesson:

    Indian Code = Shit.

    I agree. I've never seen anything of any usable quality come from there. They don't breed good developers. There's obviously some exceptions although I have never encountered one in my 13 years in development.

  • (cs) in reply to Sylver
    Sylver:
    Mason Wheeler:
    Senior Swede:
    FTFY. People don't understand what racism is, and think it's just white folks giving black folks a hard time. Slowly, that's starting to include those of Hispanic origin. That's not it either. Racism is the mindset that "we" are inherently better than "them" at x. That means saying that blacks are better runners is racism. That means that Mexicans are better lovers is racism. That means that saying "white men can't jump" is racism. I've noticed the tendency for it to be "okay" to make fun of Indians (MetroPCS,Outsourced I'm looking at you), just as it was previously funny to make fun of Chinese. And blacks. And Irishmen. And Native Americans. That doesn't make it right, and it doesn't mean that your kids won't someday call you a racist *****.

    The key word there, that you seem to be overlooking, is "inherently." While I agree that all men are created equal, we don't tend to stay that way for long, and coding is a learned skill, not an inherent talent. This means that the quality of the learning process and the surrounding culture has quite a bit of influence on the finished product.

    Take a white kid, raise him in India in the Indian school system, and he'll be a heck of a lot more likely to produce really crappy code than an Indian kid of equal intelligence raised and educated in America.

    That's where the difference is. When you consider an Indian programmers to be bad because they are Indian, you making a racist comment.

    When you consider Indian programmers to be bad because on average their programming education sucks, you are not being racist but you are adding irrelevant data.

    Being Indian is not relevant to the fact that poorly trained programmers tend to be bad programmers (we have way too many talented self-taught programmers in our ranks to believe that a programmer's education is all that matters).

    The problem is that people are often not saying what they really mean. While you might mean "Indian programmers are often not trained to very high standards", if you just say "Indian programmers suck", you are making a racist comment regardless of your actual opinion.

    I never said "Indian programmers suck". I said "Indian code sucks", which should be no more controversial than saying "American cars suck". I'm judging a product. Think what you will about the people making it.

  • (cs) in reply to Sylver
    Sylver:
    hoodaticus:
    ... Perhaps an analogy will point out the fatal flaw in this reasoning.

    German Cars > American Cars

    What about this statement is racist? How about this:

    American Aircraft Carriers > Indian Aircraft Carriers

    Am I racist yet? Okay, one more try:

    American Code > Indian Code

    (I've got lots more of these).

    Because what I'm getting from this conversation is that I have a choice between either "racism" or intelligence.

    Yes, each and every one of these statements is a racist generality.

    Cars made in Germany might be better in average than cars made in America, but if you used the same materials and the same technology in America, with the same attention to detail, you would have the same car. Further not all German cars beat American cars.

    American Aircraft Carriers > Indian Aircraft Carriers

    Have you ever flown with Jet Airways (major indian airline)? They beat the *** out of ANY American airline I have ever used.

    You've got to be trolling. There is no way that anyone is really that stupid.

  • shimon (unregistered) in reply to hoodaticus
    Then science must be racist.

    Women have no balls.

    Men's tits are no good when it comes to either fondling or milking them.

    Call me a sexist for stating the obvious facts, I don't give a shit.

    Captcha: tego. I co z tego?

  • Chalito (unregistered) in reply to Mike

    why, Quake Live of course :)

  • Irritating Enlightener (unregistered)

    I just checked. On Win9x, running format on a network mapped drive instantly returns an error like "Network drives cannot be formatted". I have yet to check it on NT.

    Formatting a drive remotely is certainly possible - using remote shell like telnet or so, but the story would go a bit different, then. My vote is that it is fake.

  • Irritating Enlightened (unregistered) in reply to Irritating Enlightener
    Irritating Enlightener:
    I just checked. On Win9x, running format on a network mapped drive instantly returns an error like "Network drives cannot be formatted". I have yet to check it on NT.

    Formatting a drive remotely is certainly possible - using remote shell like telnet or so, but the story would go a bit different, then. My vote is that it is fake.

    I just finished a code review of some offsite-produced code, and it passed every metric for readability, re-usability, and maintainability.

  • trwtf (unregistered) in reply to Irritating Enlightener
    Irritating Enlightener:
    I just checked. On Win9x, running format on a network mapped drive instantly returns an error like "Network drives cannot be formatted". I have yet to check it on NT.

    Formatting a drive remotely is certainly possible - using remote shell like telnet or so, but the story would go a bit different, then. My vote is that it is fake.

    But the O/S featured in this story was DOS, not Windows.

    <retard> I couldn't map a floppy over the network on my Sinclair ZX-80 so this article is fake! </retard>
  • drusi (unregistered)

    I hope you guys arguing over FPSes are having fun. Meanwhile I'll just be enjoying a few rounds of versus-mode Tetris.

    Captcha: minim, because "a few" is a minim-um of thirty, it being Tetris after all.

  • FuBar (unregistered) in reply to Irritating Enlightened
    Irritating Enlightened:
    I just finished a code review of some offsite-produced code, and it passed every metric for readability, re-usability, and maintainability.
    The last will be quite important if it didn't also pass the unit tests, and if the use cases for testing weren't complete enough (were they based solely on the "happy path"?) I only bring it up because its absence from your list is rather significant.
  • Titicaca (unregistered) in reply to shimon
    shimon:
    Men's tits are no good when it comes to ... fondling ... them.
    You. Are. No. Fun. At. All.
  • (cs) in reply to shimon
    shimon:
    Men's tits are no good when it comes to either fondling or milking them.

    Sure they are, if you get implants for that specific purpose. That's a little trick I call "Gaming the System".

  • by (unregistered) in reply to Irritating Enlightened
    Irritating Enlightened:
    Irritating Enlightener:
    I just checked. On Win9x, running format on a network mapped drive instantly returns an error like "Network drives cannot be formatted". I have yet to check it on NT.

    Formatting a drive remotely is certainly possible - using remote shell like telnet or so, but the story would go a bit different, then. My vote is that it is fake.

    I just finished a code review of some offsite-produced code, and it passed every metric for readability, re-usability, and maintainability.

    Hey, there's a first time for everything...

  • TeaDrinker (unregistered) in reply to nobulate
    nobulate:
    TeaDrinker:
    Hasn't anybody picked up on the Axe in Quake? I never had an axe as a weapon...

    Dude, you don't pick it up, it's Impulse 1 and you can't drop it. I'm calling your bluff, you never played real Quake!

    Damn - you are right! My memory is like swiss cheese.

  • Unreal (unregistered) in reply to anon

    Love Quake and Unreal Tournament!!! Had to kick that habit. And thankfully our office did not audit.

  • (cs) in reply to by
    by:
    Irritating Enlightened:
    Irritating Enlightener:
    I just checked. On Win9x, running format on a network mapped drive instantly returns an error like "Network drives cannot be formatted". I have yet to check it on NT.

    Formatting a drive remotely is certainly possible - using remote shell like telnet or so, but the story would go a bit different, then. My vote is that it is fake.

    I just finished a code review of some offsite-produced code, and it passed every metric for readability, re-usability, and maintainability.

    Hey, there's a first time for everything...

    Of course, we have to know more about the reviewer's standards before we can accept said review.

  • (cs) in reply to Sylver
    Sylver:
    hoodaticus:
    ... Perhaps an analogy will point out the fatal flaw in this reasoning.

    German Cars > American Cars

    What about this statement is racist? How about this:

    American Aircraft Carriers > Indian Aircraft Carriers

    Am I racist yet? Okay, one more try:

    American Code > Indian Code

    (I've got lots more of these).

    Because what I'm getting from this conversation is that I have a choice between either "racism" or intelligence.

    Yes, each and every one of these statements is a racist generality.

    Cars made in Germany might be better in average than cars made in America, but if you used the same materials and the same technology in America, with the same attention to detail, you would have the same car. Further not all German cars beat American cars.

    American Aircraft Carriers > Indian Aircraft Carriers

    Have you ever flown with Jet Airways (major indian airline)? They beat the *** out of ANY American airline I have ever used.

    Here is what people don't seem to recognize.

    It becomes racist when it becomes a value judgment against the person or people.

    "White men can't jump", in and of itself, is not a racist statement. It is a false statement; in general, unless there is an underlying physical problem, white men can jump. But to assign a judgment against white men (I know this to be in the context of basketball, so we'll say that it means white men can't play basketball) makes it racist.

    If Indians are shorter . . . if that can be backed up by scientific evidence, then it's not racist. But by making a value judgment that says Indians are inferior because of this trait, then that makes it racist.

    If Indian coding is worse than what are considered to be generally accepted software engineering principles, then that is not racist. But to use it as a value judgment that all Indian software engineers suck at their trade is racist.

    Value judgments. That's where racism lies.

  • anon (unregistered) in reply to Sylver
    Sylver:
    American Aircraft Carriers > Indian Aircraft Carriers

    Have you ever flown with Jet Airways (major indian airline)? They beat the *** out of ANY American airline I have ever used.

    I advise you to never, ever learn what an aircraft carrier is. The ensuing revelation of just how stupid you are might be more than you can handle.

  • (cs) in reply to anon
    anon:
    Sylver:
    American Aircraft Carriers > Indian Aircraft Carriers

    Have you ever flown with Jet Airways (major indian airline)? They beat the *** out of ANY American airline I have ever used.

    I advise you to never, ever learn what an aircraft carrier is. The ensuing revelation of just how stupid you are might be more than you can handle.

    [image]

    If battleships can fly, why not?

  • killakaos (unregistered) in reply to Mike

    still quake.

  • (cs) in reply to nonpartisan
    nonpartisan:
    Sylver:
    hoodaticus:
    ... Perhaps an analogy will point out the fatal flaw in this reasoning.

    German Cars > American Cars

    What about this statement is racist? How about this:

    American Aircraft Carriers > Indian Aircraft Carriers

    Am I racist yet? Okay, one more try:

    American Code > Indian Code

    (I've got lots more of these).

    Because what I'm getting from this conversation is that I have a choice between either "racism" or intelligence.

    Yes, each and every one of these statements is a racist generality.

    Cars made in Germany might be better in average than cars made in America, but if you used the same materials and the same technology in America, with the same attention to detail, you would have the same car. Further not all German cars beat American cars.

    American Aircraft Carriers > Indian Aircraft Carriers

    Have you ever flown with Jet Airways (major indian airline)? They beat the *** out of ANY American airline I have ever used.

    Here is what people don't seem to recognize.

    It becomes racist when it becomes a value judgment against the person or people.

    "White men can't jump", in and of itself, is not a racist statement. It is a false statement; in general, unless there is an underlying physical problem, white men can jump. But to assign a judgment against white men (I know this to be in the context of basketball, so we'll say that it means white men can't play basketball) makes it racist.

    If Indians are shorter . . . if that can be backed up by scientific evidence, then it's not racist. But by making a value judgment that says Indians are inferior because of this trait, then that makes it racist.

    If Indian coding is worse than what are considered to be generally accepted software engineering principles, then that is not racist. But to use it as a value judgment that all Indian software engineers suck at their trade is racist.

    Value judgments. That's where racism lies.

    You nailed it! Good job. As I said, I meant code produced by Indians, not Americans of Indian descent. I am a nationalist, not a racist.

  • (cs) in reply to shimon
    shimon:
    Then science must be racist.

    Women have no balls.

    Men's tits are no good when it comes to either fondling or milking them.

    Call me a sexist for stating the obvious facts, I don't give a shit.

    Captcha: tego. I co z tego?

    Sexist.

  • tt (unregistered) in reply to Senior Swede

    Sir, you are an idiot. According to your logic, it's racism to say that black people have darker skin than white people.

  • Ã (unregistered) in reply to tt
    tt:
    Sir, you are an idiot. According to your logic, it's racism to say that black people have darker skin than white people.
    y u gotta be so racist?
  • (cs) in reply to tt
    tt:
    Sir, you are an idiot. According to your logic, it's racism to say that black people have darker skin than white people.
    But it would be racist to say that black people are better at having dark skin than white people, wouldn't it?
  • (cs) in reply to boog
    boog:
    tt:
    Sir, you are an idiot. According to your logic, it's racism to say that black people have darker skin than white people.
    But it would be racist to say that black people are better at having dark skin than white people, wouldn't it?

    Yeah, but they are. That shit comes naturally.

  • tt (unregistered) in reply to boog

    This would be just illogical :)

  • tt (unregistered) in reply to frits

    It's illogical to say that they are better just because they have darker skin. Better at what?

    On the other hand, if we talk about generalization based on race, I think it's natural. That's how our brain works. We group objects into groups, and attach experiences to those groups.

    So, if my former experience with Indian programmers was crap, I WILL generalize and attach to that group of people (race) that most likely they will produce crappy code by default, but will accept the fact that some of them might quite brilliant.

    Another example - have you heard - Chinese can't drive? These things don't come from nowere.. That means that people had enough situations on road with chinese drivers.

    Regarding "white man can't jump". Yes, some have not bad ones.. but you are aware that it's easier for black man to get a good jump just because of different properties of muscle among those two groups?

    Finally, to all - stop pretending that you do not generalize based on race. EVERYONE does. Many just lie they don't, cause it's politically incorrect.

    Do I hate someone based on race? Hell no. I think that's were the real racism lies (Racism: discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race)

  • Doesn't Matter (unregistered)

    I think the real lack of quality in offshore code is due to the way these business operate. There is a strong push to move workers up the ladder based on seniority. So there I a constant churn of workers. The company will not likely receive the same developer time after time. The skills learned on the job therefore have to be relearned continuously. Additionally, senior outsourced workers frequently are promoted into management roles so their technical abilities are no longer used. I've worked with an outsourced PM that had pretty sharp technical abilities and I then realized it's a systemic problem in how these companies operate.

  • tt (unregistered) in reply to tt

    Anatomical differences in the psoas muscles in young black and white men: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1467925/pdf/joa_1942_0303.pdf

  • Freddy Bob (unregistered)

    "Software audit" where I used to work involved one of the lower order IT staff hitting "Add/remove programs" in the Windows' Control Panel and jotting the names of anything they didn't recognise on a notepad. Just because they didn't recognise it didn't mean that it was not legitimate or that you didn't have it installed legally. If there was anything that you didn't want them to see, it was just a matter of exporting and then deleting the relevant registry tree before they got to your desk.

  • (cs) in reply to tt
    tt:
    It's illogical to say that they are better just because they have darker skin. Better at what?
    You should really go back and read his comment in the context of responding to mine. Doing so will reveal the answers that you seek.
  • (cs) in reply to Doesn't Matter
    Doesn't Matter:
    I think the real lack of quality in offshore code is due to the way these business operate. There is a strong push to move workers up the ladder based on seniority. So there I a constant churn of workers. The company will not likely receive the same developer time after time. The skills learned on the job therefore have to be relearned continuously. Additionally, senior outsourced workers frequently are promoted into management roles so their technical abilities are no longer used. I've worked with an outsourced PM that had pretty sharp technical abilities and I then realized it's a systemic problem in how these companies operate.

    Very valid points! Kudos!

  • (cs) in reply to Doesn't Matter
    Doesn't Matter:
    ...senior outsourced workers frequently are promoted into management roles so their technical abilities are no longer used.
    This is common everywhere, not just in outsourced environments. It is known as the Peter Principle.
  • (cs) in reply to boog
    boog:
    Doesn't Matter:
    ...senior outsourced workers frequently are promoted into management roles so their technical abilities are no longer used.
    This is common everywhere, not just in outsourced environments. It is known as the Peter Principle.

    boog, Everyone knows less you know higher you go. So no point cramming your head with technical knowledge.

  • (cs) in reply to tt
    tt:
    On the other hand, if we talk about generalization based on race, I think it's natural. That's how our brain works. We group objects into groups, and attach experiences to those groups.
    The reason the human mind generalizes is due to scarcity. We do not have the time or resources to perform a full Reflection on every goddamn object we come across to see if maybe, just maybe, this one has a non-standard implementation of one of its thousands of methods and properties. Generalization is a lossy optimization, but there is no other way to live as a human being in realtime.

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